Green VIA coaches

[THayman]

I recently found pictures of VIA Rail LRC locomotives pulling green coaches with two blue stripes under the windows with a yellow stripe between them and the VIA logo in blue. I was wondering if anyone could eaplain these coaches. I have in mind they operate on the International limited, but I don't know who built them, when they were used, and why they were green. Does any one else?

[Anonymous]

Green was the colour of CN rails passenger equipment, back when they still ran passenger trains.

They may be old CN coaches that VIA didn't bother fully re-painting.

[Junctionfan]

Those are really old. VIA used those mainly in the 70s when they still used F units. I rarely have seen those in operation. That is quite a sighting; did you take pictures of them?

[Anonymous]

I might be wrong, but I differ.

Green was the color for CN passenger equipement before 1961, when they introduce the wet noodle scheme. Then, they start repainting their rolling stock black and grey. After that, around 1977, via scheme (blue and yellow) was introduced. Finally the LRC was introduced after 1980. That would mean that the said green equipment was never repaint during more than 20 years.

I think it might be some of the new renaissance fleet, car with an LRC loco. I read somewhere thant Via test these with there new car to compare it with the GE P42.

Send some pics if it's possible, they will be helpfull.

Tuxx

[Junctionfan]

Depends on the shape of them. What do they look like?

[M636C]

Here's a link to photos of Renaissance Cars

http://www.viarail.ca/corporate/ar/2002/en.info.2002.06.html

These cars were built by Alstom (I think) for use on the "NightStar" overnight trains from England to major European destinations. The traffic estimates were hopelessly optimistic (not just for passenger services) and the cars were never used in Europe.

CN picked them up at a good price, and I believe they were smart to do so, although they are quite different from previous cars used in Canada since they were built for the very restricted clearances in England.

The coaches, shown in the drawing in the CN report are green over blue, and sound the most likely thing to match the description above to be seen behind an LRC unit. There was probably a lot of testing required to get the cars to operate (they had never been used, and had been stored for years) and the LRC units were probably spare to requirements and available for test trains.

Notice that the sleeping cars have the colour reversed, blue over green (see photo in CN report), and the buffet-lounge cars were painted half and half with the blue and green changing over, since they were intended to run between the sleeping and coach cars.

This sounds like the most likely answer to me. Like Tuxx, I think it would have been a long time for CN green cars to be unrepainted, and then to have VIA lettering added.

Peter

[BentnoseWillie]

QUOTE: CN picked them up at a good price, and I believe they were smart to do so, although they are quite different from previous cars used in Canada since they were built for the very restricted clearances in England.

One detail: CN had nothing to do with this purchase. The federal government reorganized VIA as a crown corporation unto itself, separate from CN, within the first few years of VIA operations. VIA is nothing more to CN now than a customer - or a nuisance, depending upon whom you ask. [}:)]

Otherwise M636C hit the nail on the head - THayman is describing the new "Renaissance" equipment that has been entering service on several routes, such as the Montreal-Windsor corridor and the Montreal-Halifax Ocean. They're replacing stainless-steel HEP1 and HEP2 cars, freeing the aging (and dwindling) stainless fleet for high-profile routes such as the Canadian. There have been many issues with these new cars, especially in winter weather, but I'm reserving judgement until I get a trip in on them. The Ocean still uses at least one set of HEP1 coaches, but they're supposed to be replaced in Q1 of 2005 as Renaissance equipment becomes available. In most areas you'll find Renaissance cars being pulled by new P42's, though on the Ocean it's still exclusively F40PH-2's.

There are no CN or former CN passenger cars still in green except those owned by museums or private owners. There aren't more than a handful of ex-CN cars - if any - left on VIA's roster at all, and CN's own cars in test, work and business service have all been repainted several times since they last wore green.

[M636C]

Willie,

Sorry about my freudian slip! My last visit to Canada was for the Expo in 1986, and on one day, the "Super Continental", in otherwise perfect VIA blue, was led by a CN red and black F unit, I think a last minute failure replacement rather than an unrepainted VIA unit.

In Australia, we adopted the government/private duopoly formula for our airlines, and imported some administrators used to the idea from Canada. That has gone now, but its ghost remains in our thoughts.

It is as hard to separate the thought of CN from "Canadian Government" as it is to separate the concept of QANTAS from "Australian Government". QANTAS, like CN, is private now, but in the airline's case is so big that it acts like it IS the government.

By the way, the last VIA train I caught was a Turbo from Toronto to Montreal in 1977. We made it to Dorval Airport where the leading unit was shut down due to a fire (a fire tender came from the airport, but no visible damage was done to the train). A Rapido hauled by an FPD-4 stopped alongside and took us into Montreal.

So my ideas of VIA are well out of date!

Peter

[THayman]

No, I am not talking about the new rennaisance fleet. I know what they look like, but these were much older. They looked like the old smoothside ones, and were being used on the International run.

[M636C]

Tim,

The old CN colors were light green over dark green. Is it possible that the lower colour is dark green and not blue?

Then it is just possible that two older cars had yellow VIA decals applied when restored to service after storage, as described above.

Otherwise, might some older cars have been painted in Renaissance colours as a trial?

But a photo would be a great help.

Peter

[BentnoseWillie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by THayman

No, I am not talking about the new rennaisance fleet. I know what they look like, but these were much older. They looked like the old smoothside ones, and were being used on the International run.

As far as I know the Renaissance fleet is the only passenger-carrying VIA equipment that was ever green. The only other smoothside cars that VIA operates are the LRC cars, which as far as I know remain in the grey and blue scheme. The HEP1 and HEP2 cars are stainless steel. I don't think there are any streamlined cars remaining active at all, and even if they were they would be in northern Manitoba, and they'd be blue. There may be baggage/adapter cars in Renaissance paint, but there'd be just one, at the head end of the train, and it would not have windows.

QUOTE: Then it is just possible that two older cars had yellow VIA decals applied when restored to service after storage, as described above.

VIA would not be pulling such cars out of storage - they've been shedding that equipment for fifteen years, and even if they were such cars, they'd have been repainted blue 25 years ago when they were in active service.

If the cars you saw were green but not Renaissance equipment and not baggage cars, they did not belong to VIA unless they were in some one-off promotional scheme, which I have seen no mention of anywhere else.

[Junctionfan]

Most of that dark blue and yellow striped cars have been sold to excursion railroads and sold or donated to railroad museums like the one in St. Thomas, Ontario.

I don't recall seeing any laying about in VIA's yard in Oakville, Ontario.

[THayman]

Here's a site where there are some photos of LRC's with these coaches I'm speaking of. http://www.trainweb.org/vermande/v/via6900.html

[BentnoseWillie]

Which photos? There are three types of coaches portrayed on that page.

The top six photos, the left hand photo in the fifth row, and the right hand photo in the last row show aluminium "Tempo" cars - as far as I know these are all long gone.

There are LRC coaches in the right hand photo of the fourth and fifth rows - last I heard those still wore grey and blue.

The left-hand photo in the fourth row shows a blue streamlined ex-CN car - these would be in northern Manitoba if there are any left at all.

[M636C]

I spent some time thinking about this, and looking up my "Rail Canada" colour guide to VIA (pretty old).

My thoughts were that the only cars with BLUE VIA stripes below the windows were the Tempo cars. In a spring or summer photo, the unpainted Aluminium body of the Tempo car could appear green in a photo (reflecting grass nearby), giving the impression of a light green car with blue stripes.

Since I assume the cars Tim meant in the photos linked above were the Tempo cars (they were in the majority in those photos), that is your answer.

They were built by Hawker Siddeley, later part of Bombardier, for CN and were all transferred to VIA. Many of them were sold to DRGW for "Ski Train" service and I guess those are now with UP doing the same thing. I saw some in LAUPT, painted "Grande Gold" above the waist, still aluminium below looking really nice back in 1994. They had just run a tour with one of the preserved SP 4-6-2s.

Peter

[BentnoseWillie]

As far as I know, the Tempo cars are all gone from VIA. The Ski Train cars were purchased as part of VIA's disposal of the Tempo fleet, which of limited compatibility with other equipment. I don't know if the Ski Train got them all, but I'm certain that VIA sold them all.

[passengerfan]

The pictures sure look like the former TEMPO equipment built for Southeast Ontario service. They were used in Toronto - Windsor and Toronto - Sarnia trains. They were built of Aluminum and had poor ride qualities that were never corrected above 60 mph. Today the cars look much better in the Grande Gold scheme with black stripes and were recently used to haul football fans from parking facilities to the Iowa home coming game. The cars are available for charter except during the winter ski season when they take passengers to the mountains from Denver and I doubt if they ever exceed forty or forty-five in this service. For power they are using a couple of former Amtrak F40s.

[BentnoseWillie]

As M636C said, the green must be a reflection. The Tempo cars were natural aluminium in VIA service.

The LRC power units pulling them in the photos and the International are also history. The LRC engines were mostly sodl to IRSI in Moncton, and the International was dropped last year from Customs hassles.

[Anonymous]

definitely Tempo cars-Rode them often in the Toronto-Windsor corridor and both ways between Oakville and Chicago and boy their subway car heritage definitely showed over 60mph. Everything shook and rattled, but to give CN credit, at least they were still trying to encourage ridership when they were introduced in the mid to late 60s. They used to alternate on the International with Amtrak F40s and Amfleet equipment. I',m sure the LRC locomotives left the maintenance guys scratching their heads more than once in Chicago!

[Junctionfan]

Cool. I have never seen those tempo cars before. Thankyou for the link.

[enr2099]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

I spent some time thinking about this, and looking up my "Rail Canada" colour guide to VIA (pretty old).

My thoughts were that the only cars with BLUE VIA stripes below the windows were the Tempo cars.

The RDC's were given a similar paint scheme, they had the blue and yellow stripes under the windows. The only difference between the two paint schemes was the RDC's had yellow ends.