Your "rubbery isolation" is probably Epflex or similar crossing material used like an old texas plank crossing to at least keep the crud out of the tie plates and rail fastenings. http://www.poly-corp.com/transportation/railseal.asp?trail=t;tt;rs-nl
Fort Collins has the same headache plus others ...Their 65# jointed rail has no EpFlex application that would work for it along Mountain Avenue. EpFlex is made for 115# rail and larger.
MC, azobe sounds familiar. Most of the line is in the neutral ground (median) and is covered wih turf. The ballast has nowhere to drain to. Anyway, it lasted about 20 years. The 20 blocks that are downtown are in concrete with some kind of rubbery isolation and asphalt over and around it.
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Paul of Covington tree68 I don't work in the building industry, but I would opine that the railroads have done about as much rebuilding as the highway industry. It's just that it's done differently. With a highway, you can't go in and redo the substructure without destroying the top layers. With a railroad, you can do the work incrementally - replace ties, then clean the ballast, then tamp, and later replace the rails as needed without substantially damaging the substructure. Maintenance doesn't exist in many people's minds these days. Around 1990, all of the St. Charles streetcar tracks in New Orleans were removed and replaced with CWR and ties of some African wood that was supposed to be rot-resistant. A few years ago they realized that rot-resistant did not mean rot-proof and they had to replace them with concrete ties. I heard one television commentator say, "And to think, the original ties lasted 150 years."
tree68 I don't work in the building industry, but I would opine that the railroads have done about as much rebuilding as the highway industry. It's just that it's done differently. With a highway, you can't go in and redo the substructure without destroying the top layers. With a railroad, you can do the work incrementally - replace ties, then clean the ballast, then tamp, and later replace the rails as needed without substantially damaging the substructure.
Maintenance doesn't exist in many people's minds these days. Around 1990, all of the St. Charles streetcar tracks in New Orleans were removed and replaced with CWR and ties of some African wood that was supposed to be rot-resistant. A few years ago they realized that rot-resistant did not mean rot-proof and they had to replace them with concrete ties. I heard one television commentator say, "And to think, the original ties lasted 150 years."
I've been fascinated by track maintenance since I was in high school back in the late '50's when I came across a track gang at work. They had a machine to replace the ties, one to drive the spikes, and one to tamp the ballast. They used an optical system to level the track: a supervisor would go ahead, put a cushion on the ballast, sit on it and bend over to sight along the rail. The spike driving machine apparently couldn't handle the spikes at the joints, so these were driven by two big laborers with mauls. They would drive the spike on each side of the rail simultaneously, alternating their strokes. I noticed that when one finished driving the spike home, he would continue to swing, hitting the top of the rail until the other one finished. He would then hit the top of the rail and they both stopped. I'm guessing this was done to not break the rythm.
tree68I don't work in the building industry, but I would opine that the railroads have done about as much rebuilding as the highway industry. It's just that it's done differently. With a highway, you can't go in and redo the substructure without destroying the top layers. With a railroad, you can do the work incrementally - replace ties, then clean the ballast, then tamp, and later replace the rails as needed without substantially damaging the substructure.
I don't think any of the airports built in the 1880's can lay the same claim.
I once heard on Jay Leno's Tonight show about a plane that landed "in an unpaved section of the airport". Jay's comment was that if it was an unpaved part then it didn't land, it crashed.
I told someone that story, and added that when I landed on the island Mustique in St Vincent and the Grenadines that the runways were unpaved. She told me that when she landed at Wings Field in Bluebell PA she told the pilot "we can't land there, it's grass."
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
gardendance Murphy Siding ... I work in the building industry and have that kind of mindset. ... What's fascinationg is that we have a lot of 125 year old railroad infrastructure in our area that still works. You don't see many 125 year old interstate highways or airport runways that you can say that about. You say you work in the building industry, so why, in your professional opinion, did the highway and airport industries replace so much of what they had built 125 years ago?
Murphy Siding ... I work in the building industry and have that kind of mindset. ... What's fascinationg is that we have a lot of 125 year old railroad infrastructure in our area that still works. You don't see many 125 year old interstate highways or airport runways that you can say that about.
... I work in the building industry and have that kind of mindset.
...
What's fascinationg is that we have a lot of 125 year old railroad infrastructure in our area that still works. You don't see many 125 year old interstate highways or airport runways that you can say that about.
You say you work in the building industry, so why, in your professional opinion, did the highway and airport industries replace so much of what they had built 125 years ago?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
With all due respects to the previous postings (I learn a lot from their knowledge and insights), I don't think that there were too many airport runways 125 years ago.
While I don't take as much of an interest in M/W work as some of the others, I'm still fascinated by the equipment used by a modern mechanized M/W crew. I'm also curious as to what sort of equipment replaced Jordan Spreaders.
gardendanceYou say you work in the building industry, so why, in your professional opinion, did the highway and airport industries replace so much of what they had built 125 years ago?
I don't work in the building industry, but I would opine that the railroads have done about as much rebuilding as the highway industry. It's just that it's done differently.
With a highway, you can't go in and redo the substructure without destroying the top layers. With a railroad, you can do the work incrementally - replace ties, then clean the ballast, then tamp, and later replace the rails as needed without substantially damaging the substructure.
I suppose replacing the rails would be roughly analogous to capping an asphalt road. Same with "surfacing."
The track structure generally is usable, albeit at reduced speeds, right up until it falls apart. A road surface that is failing may become impassable due to the failures of the pavement (potholes, etc).
Kinda like that car that's all original, except that most of the parts have been replaced over time because they wore out, but not all at once.
The highways (and airports) have seen a huge change in the traffic they handle. Nevermind wear and tear, the weights and traffic levels of today are so much greater than 125 years ago that the old Macadam road, built to the standards of the day, would fall apart in weeks under most circumstances.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Norm48327 Murphy Siding I just remember thinking that the operation as a whole looked as if the Rube Goldberg Circus was heading through town.
Murphy Siding I just remember thinking that the operation as a whole looked as if the Rube Goldberg Circus was heading through town.
Murphy SidingI just remember thinking that the operation as a whole looked as if the Rube Goldberg Circus was heading through town.
To the casual observer, yes. For those with some knowledge it is a well orchestrated effort. Not much wasted motion.
Norm
I once got to watch a tie replacement gang at work, although only for a short time. It was probably more along the line of replacing all, or nearly all the ties on a line. I just remember thinking that the operation as a whole looked as if the Rube Goldberg Circus was heading through town.
Paul_D_North_Jr Photo (not mine) of typical tie crane and cart: http://www.juddspittler.com/gallery/colmow1/CRW_2590a Interesting webpage with overview of the process, including photos, though not a real good one of the tamper (the most important and interesting machine of the bunch, IMHO): http://www.juddspittler.com/gallery/colmow1?page=1 Murphy, if you can watch the operation at least somewhat up close, I'd encourage you to do that. There are reasons mudchicken and I (and perhaps some others here) find it more interesting than the shiny toys at the front of the trains. - Paul North.
Photo (not mine) of typical tie crane and cart:
http://www.juddspittler.com/gallery/colmow1/CRW_2590a
Interesting webpage with overview of the process, including photos, though not a real good one of the tamper (the most important and interesting machine of the bunch, IMHO):
http://www.juddspittler.com/gallery/colmow1?page=1
Murphy, if you can watch the operation at least somewhat up close, I'd encourage you to do that. There are reasons mudchicken and I (and perhaps some others here) find it more interesting than the shiny toys at the front of the trains.
- Paul North.
Regarding seeing spots:
http://industryrailway.com/product/Paint/LOG-MARKING-PAINT-313/
http://industryrailway.com/product/Paint/LOG-MARK-HANDLE-312/
Some mark the tie plate, some mark the middle of the tie where the machine operator can better see the mark through the opening in the floor of the tie inserter.
What Paul said. Several years ago I became interested in MOW. There's more to railroading than running trains. I became friends with a track foreman and learned a lot from him.
the tie peckers are out there on a fixed schedule many months in advance helping the maintenance planners with their planning and scheduling. A trackman with the pin flags/chalk paint is out there less than a week in advance of the work train arriving. As long as the density of new ties is placed close to the area of need, the tie cranes (usually 2) can set the table for the tie change machines in relatively good order, between what has been put on the ballast shoulder and what they have on the pushcarts being towed by them. The rest of the tie gang consist will be spread out accordingly to let the tie cranes and TKO's do their thing unemcumbered.
The pin flag or chalk paint is a simple visual cue for the Cartopper/JimboCrane operator to get the right density of new ties distributed along the ballast shoulder.
Normal tie replacement is in the neighborhood of 500-1200 ties per mile with a standard tie gang consist. What Balt is hinting at is a supergang with working limits in a blitz type major window. Much over 1000 ties/day and the trailing surfacing gangs and follow-up quality operations cannot keep up resulting in huge slow orders that the operating bubbas can't accept.
BaltACDI am told that normal production for a mechanized tie gang is 3000 ties per working day.
If they're doing a 100% replacement, that's about a mile... Obviously the lower the proportion of ties being replace, the further that 3000 ties will go.
The need for ties for a specific segment of track has been well counted, identified and documented - both in the field and on paper for the tie train to be loaded at the tie plant. The documentation of tie condition will be done 6 months to a year before the work is intended to be undertaken.
On my carrier, before the Tie Gang curfew goes to work it is known that they will be installing 30K, 40K or whatever between mile post 1 and mile post 15 and that the ties have been distributed and are in place for the gang.
I am told that normal production for a mechanized tie gang is 3000 ties per working day.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
mudchicken The cartopper will drop 10 ties per every 10 pin flags. The tie-pecker comes through with a sponge paint applicator and puts a colored dot on every defective tie and comes up with a tie count (to replace) per mile. Roadmaster and track supervisor place the pin flags right before the gang shows up.
The cartopper will drop 10 ties per every 10 pin flags. The tie-pecker comes through with a sponge paint applicator and puts a colored dot on every defective tie and comes up with a tie count (to replace) per mile. Roadmaster and track supervisor place the pin flags right before the gang shows up.
There are usually one or two on-track tie cranes that can position ties for the TKO/TSR or whatever on-track machine they are using. Getting the ties "close" just speeds up the process. On a good day, the tie cart rarely is touched.
A little planning ahead by the roadmaster/MTM/Track supervisor usually ends the Jack & Jill bundle problem and usually has ties piled strategically in flatter parts. The older fills with the slopes steeper than 1:1 ought to be remediated anyhow to safely hold surface (if you have the room/width, air dumps and jordan spreaders anyone?)
Not sure I've ever seen a Cartopper or JimboCrane handle a whole bundle unloading scenario. (More the work for a Burro 40T or Locomotive Crane)
Randy Stahl Need the carts also because you can't set ties on the side of a fill. Its a siinking feeling when a bundle goes tumbling down a steep hill.
Need the carts also because you can't set ties on the side of a fill. Its a siinking feeling when a bundle goes tumbling down a steep hill.
During a "railroad archeology" trip, found a brand new (ie, unused) tie in a culvert, where it had apparently fallen when the line was being rehabbed almost 20 years ago.
Randy
There's usually some flexibility = variation in distance/ location between where the new ties are dropped, and where they're actually installed. The guy on the backhoe doesn't have to - and really doesn't have the time to - put the new tie exactly next to the old tie to be replaced (it'd be right in the way then anyhow).
Instead, the tie inserter usually has a small 4-wheel cart with it, which can hold 25 ties or so. It serves as a kind of 'surge/overflow buffer' - if there are a few too many ties set down for the number to be actually replaced, the extras are placed on the cart. Conversely, if the tie inserter is a few ties short on what's laying next to the track, it can 'borrow' from the tie cart to make up for the missing ones, until it gets to a place where there some more extras, etc. In the long run, it all evens out, and saves a lot of back-and-forth to match up the tie count exactly.
Nicely done, you two!
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
(1) restricted speed 1 mile
(2) The cartopper will drop 10 ties per every 10 pin flags. The tie-pecker comes through with a sponge paint applicator and puts a colored dot on every defective tie and comes up with a tie count (to replace) per mile. Roadmaster and track supervisor place the pin flags right before the gang shows up.You may see multiple colored dots for various trips of the tie pecker based on budget allowances, delays, etc.
No, that's RRRR - Reporting Marks for Rock & Rail.
Pirates-Walking along a bike trail next to the BNSF line this evening, I saw a pirate sign along the railroad tracks. It said "R 1 mile". Shiver me timbers, what does that sign mean?Planks- Along several miles of that BNSF line, there appears to be preparations being made for some major tie replacement. Last week, I saw a train of Herzog cars along the line. It had one of those backhoes with a claw up on top of open cars unloading new ties along the line. I notice that the ties are not evenly distibuted. It leads me to believe that the ties are placed more or less in relationship to where they are needed. I presume that an inspector went down the line and marked which ties will be replaced. How is that information relayed to a guy in a backhoe on top of the cars, so he gets the right amount of ties in the right place?ps. Aaaarrrgghhh!!!
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