MidlandMike Resurrecting and updating an older thread here. There is no longer even a possibility of reconnecting the former C&S/BN/LC&S line to the outside world, as the railyard has indeed been sold to a developer and houses are being built as I type. The rails are still under the pavement at the Harrison Avenue crossing by the library but they were removed at highway 24 this past summer when CDOT repaved. The rest of the Leadville Branch from Malta to the Presbyterian Church is still intact, although the first half-mile out of Malta is almost completely overgrown and sand has drifted over the rails at several points. Local speculation was rampant when Climax reopened but since they opted for trucks to the UP up at Kremmling, most of us doubt that they really considered going back to rail transport. The recent attempt by the Colorado Pacific short line to force a sale of the TP division definitely perked out ears up, but now that's gone to a second lessee and is tied up in court. Again, I rather doubt it will happen but who knows how that will play out. The Moffatt line continues to be run at near-capacity from what I've heard, so the possibility of reactivation by the UP itself continues to exist. mudchicken (1) the mine has some serious plans. The pittance coming out of there now is peanuts and largely for evaluation puposes. (2) The connection is out, but it has not been abandoned at Leadville. Mostly out because of CDOT's whining about the US-24 crossing. Colorado PUC considers the crossing removal temporary, not officially gone. The crux is the UP/BNSF connection to what now is the LC&S. The City of Leadville was supposed to get the line as a rail trail under an NITU that the city managed to screw up and fail to follow through on. If rail service does come back, expect lots of flying pig's feathers in local government. I don't know the legal status of the rail-trail, however, the physical transformation seems to have already taken place. As part of the UP with USEPA mitigation of mine wastes used as track ballast, the rails were pulled up, and the ROW paved over to keep the wastes from being leached out from rain percolating thru. A more recent EPA news release on the California Superfund site talks about a former Leadville railyard being developed for 250 homes. https://www.epa.gov/superfund-redevelopment-initiative/superfund-sites-reuse-colorado
Resurrecting and updating an older thread here. There is no longer even a possibility of reconnecting the former C&S/BN/LC&S line to the outside world, as the railyard has indeed been sold to a developer and houses are being built as I type. The rails are still under the pavement at the Harrison Avenue crossing by the library but they were removed at highway 24 this past summer when CDOT repaved. The rest of the Leadville Branch from Malta to the Presbyterian Church is still intact, although the first half-mile out of Malta is almost completely overgrown and sand has drifted over the rails at several points. Local speculation was rampant when Climax reopened but since they opted for trucks to the UP up at Kremmling, most of us doubt that they really considered going back to rail transport. The recent attempt by the Colorado Pacific short line to force a sale of the TP division definitely perked out ears up, but now that's gone to a second lessee and is tied up in court. Again, I rather doubt it will happen but who knows how that will play out. The Moffatt line continues to be run at near-capacity from what I've heard, so the possibility of reactivation by the UP itself continues to exist.
mudchicken (1) the mine has some serious plans. The pittance coming out of there now is peanuts and largely for evaluation puposes. (2) The connection is out, but it has not been abandoned at Leadville. Mostly out because of CDOT's whining about the US-24 crossing. Colorado PUC considers the crossing removal temporary, not officially gone. The crux is the UP/BNSF connection to what now is the LC&S. The City of Leadville was supposed to get the line as a rail trail under an NITU that the city managed to screw up and fail to follow through on. If rail service does come back, expect lots of flying pig's feathers in local government.
(1) the mine has some serious plans. The pittance coming out of there now is peanuts and largely for evaluation puposes.
(2) The connection is out, but it has not been abandoned at Leadville. Mostly out because of CDOT's whining about the US-24 crossing. Colorado PUC considers the crossing removal temporary, not officially gone. The crux is the UP/BNSF connection to what now is the LC&S. The City of Leadville was supposed to get the line as a rail trail under an NITU that the city managed to screw up and fail to follow through on. If rail service does come back, expect lots of flying pig's feathers in local government.
I don't know the legal status of the rail-trail, however, the physical transformation seems to have already taken place. As part of the UP with USEPA mitigation of mine wastes used as track ballast, the rails were pulled up, and the ROW paved over to keep the wastes from being leached out from rain percolating thru. A more recent EPA news release on the California Superfund site talks about a former Leadville railyard being developed for 250 homes.
https://www.epa.gov/superfund-redevelopment-initiative/superfund-sites-reuse-colorado
mudchicken I really do not think that Mr. SpelCzech would recognize "Dotsero." I find him quite ignorant. Deggesty mudchicken Osterod (Bond) to Dotero opened May 7, 1934. (D&SLW/D&SL/DRGW) MC, you should wait until Sunday night before you drink any more eggnog. Nogged out...and yes we know one is the other spelled backwards... A little too much Gluhwein for Mr. SpelCzech maybe? (We are busy trying to figure out just how the heck Uncle Sam managed to locate a nuclear gopher hole off the reservation in nebrasky at the moment - major brain damage)
I really do not think that Mr. SpelCzech would recognize "Dotsero." I find him quite ignorant.
Deggesty mudchicken Osterod (Bond) to Dotero opened May 7, 1934. (D&SLW/D&SL/DRGW) MC, you should wait until Sunday night before you drink any more eggnog.
mudchicken Osterod (Bond) to Dotero opened May 7, 1934. (D&SLW/D&SL/DRGW)
Osterod (Bond) to Dotero opened May 7, 1934. (D&SLW/D&SL/DRGW)
MC, you should wait until Sunday night before you drink any more eggnog.
Nogged out...and yes we know one is the other spelled backwards... A little too much Gluhwein for Mr. SpelCzech maybe?
(We are busy trying to figure out just how the heck Uncle Sam managed to locate a nuclear gopher hole off the reservation in nebrasky at the moment - major brain damage)
Johnny
Gypsum to Dotsero is in service to service the massive L-P American Gypsum wallboard plant. Gypsum to Eagle is full of stored empty coal hoppers. Everything that was filling the yard at Glenwood Springs got shoved out there. The number of stored cars varies greatly.
The Eagle County fathers and Uncle Pete have had several nasty headbutting sessions regarding development and growth around Eagle.
The only times the CZ would have used the original line to Dotsero were when the Moffat line was closed. The Dotsero Cutoff was completed in the thirties.
I believe the original route of the CZ and Amtrak's route are the same in CO.
The DRGW "Royal Gorge" was the train on the Tennessee Pass line in the years when the CZ was on the Moffat Tunnel route.
Falcon48 -
Thanks much for that detailed reply I too believe in overkill in such complex situations. As with many subjects, it's not simple, no matter how much people want it to be. This is a good illustration of the nuances that can be involved in this kind of of an apparently "abandoned line".
- PDN.
ILRAILFAN What does it mean that it was mothballed? I feel like UP hasn't torn up the tracks yet bc they will bring it back. If not someone will purchase it and turn it into a commercial line since it's pretty historic and the scenery on the line is amazing.
What does it mean that it was mothballed? I feel like UP hasn't torn up the tracks yet bc they will bring it back. If not someone will purchase it and turn it into a commercial line since it's pretty historic and the scenery on the line is amazing.
1. Pueblo-Canon City: In service and owned by UP. A short line called "Rock & Rail" (R&R) has trackage rights over this segment as a successor of ATSF (BNSF).
2. Canon City to Parkdale: In service and owned by "Royal Gorge Express" (RGX), a partnership comprised of R&R and Canon City & Royal Gorge (CC&RG), a tourist railroad. Both R&R and CC&RG actively use the line. UP has "overhead" trackage rights over the line, in case it ever decides to reactivate the line beyond Parkdale but, to my knowlege, is not using them. A few years ago, there were rock trains with UP power serving the quarry at Parkdale but, to my knowledge, these were R&R-UP run through trains with R&R crews while on RGX trackage. I don't know if these trains are still running.
3. Parkdale-Malta-Minturn: Out of service and owned by UP.
4. Malta-Leadville: Diverges from main Tennessee Pass line at Malta. Formerly served Leadville industries and connected with BN (a stub of the former Denver & South Park, standard gauged during WWII) at Leadville). Abandoned from milepost 274.3 just outside Leadville to end of line in Leadville (STB Docket No. AB-33, Sub No. 117X) and converted to a paved trail. Segment from TP connection at Malta to beginning of abandonment at MP 274.3 is out of service and owned by UP.
5. Minturn-Gypsum (not including Gypsum): Owned by UP. I'm not sure about its current service status. Service over the segment was "discontinued" in 1998 but not abandoned (the same as the rest of the TP line between Parkdale and Gypsum) as part of the UP/SP merger in STB Docket AB-8 (Sub-No. 36X). However, UP later got signal discontinuance authority from FRA, permitting it to reopen the Gypsum-Minturn segment without restoring the signal system. Off the top of my head, I don't recall whether the line was ever actually reopened (there would be no STB decisions addressing a reopening since no STB authority is required to reopen a "discontinued" line).
6. Gypsum-Dotsero: Owned by UP. Not included in prior STB discontinuance authority. I believe it's currently in service
Finally, there isn't any real mystery about UP's reasons for keeping the line in place. At the time of the UP/SP merger, UP intended to fully abandon the line from Canon City to Gypsum (not including Gypsum). But it reconsidered this following its 1997 service crisis. As I recall from statements by UP officials, UP these days is generally reluctant to fully abandon lines which have at least some potential of being used as through routes in the future, even if there aren't any current needs (or plans) for them. Rather, they will simply "discontinue service" over lines like this (with STB "discontinuance" authority) but leave them in place. Lance Fritz, UP's current CEO, briefly discussed this practice at a talk he gave at Northwestern University earlier this year.
Probably more than anyone wanted to know, but I firmly believe in overkill.
Awesome photos, and thanks for sharing. I have been in parts of that area, rode the original CZ and remember going thru the Moffat Tunnel. Was also in Leadville to ride the steam train, and remember views of Mt. Elbert. This is a very scenic area and sad to see it abandoned, but from the look of things, I don't see trains ever coming back. Friends and I were in Saluda, NC last summer and saw the summit of that grade, which has been closed also. But nowhere to really drive along and get views like you did with this. This one does not look as steep as Saluda is, saw old photos in museum of nasty wrecks on that line.
Overmod MidlandMike As part of the UP with USEPA mitigation of mine wastes used as track ballast, the rails were pulled up, and the ROW paved over to keep the wastes from being leached out from rain percolating thru. What a fascinating way to 'finance' a paved trail for free! Good thing the ARTA people haven't tried the same thing based on the 'oil emissions over time' supposedly from the locomotives, or whatever... seems like the sort of thing Keet and his minions would thrive on.
MidlandMike As part of the UP with USEPA mitigation of mine wastes used as track ballast, the rails were pulled up, and the ROW paved over to keep the wastes from being leached out from rain percolating thru.
What a fascinating way to 'finance' a paved trail for free! Good thing the ARTA people haven't tried the same thing based on the 'oil emissions over time' supposedly from the locomotives, or whatever... seems like the sort of thing Keet and his minions would thrive on.
Oil is an organic compound and is readily broken down by bacteria and other bio agents. You would have to show there was actual environmental degradation. No worse than road ROWs.
OvermodGood thing the ARTA people haven't tried the same thing based on the 'oil emissions over time' supposedly from the locomotives, or whatever... seems like the sort of thing Keet and his minions would thrive on.
Of course, it really doesn't make any difference - they don't want the trail, either. They just want the tracks gone.
But that's another topic.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
MidlandMikeAs part of the UP with USEPA mitigation of mine wastes used as track ballast, the rails were pulled up, and the ROW paved over to keep the wastes from being leached out from rain percolating thru.
Follow AB33-117X over on the STB site. The 1.8 mile abandonment in Leadville smells. Abandoned yes, rail trail no, BNSF/LC&S still have a right to connect to the national network. Leadville & Lake County dropped the ball in July 1999 (No NITU/CITU) and title to the R/W is clouded.
It would be really nice if the STB, now a stand alone agency, with budget to staff up, went back and examined the abandonment dockets and NITU cases that have become fraudulent thru neglect or greed. (They ought to start with the Monon High Bridge murder mess in Indiana and go from there...)
MC,
A few years back I got a look at the stretch of rail leading to Tennesse Pass. The orginal plan was to fly to the airport at Salida but weather forecasts changed our plans. Both the guy I was flying with and I were disappointed we didn't land at Leadsville but enjoyed the drive to Salida. Beautiful country to say the least.
It saddened me to see the rails going to rust. While that stretch may not be the best option it still might make a good escape path.
Norm
mudchicken ... The reactivation of the Climax mine or Moffat Tunnel rehab may cause part of it or all of it (Gypsum to Parkdale) to reopen yet. ...
... The reactivation of the Climax mine or Moffat Tunnel rehab may cause part of it or all of it (Gypsum to Parkdale) to reopen yet. ...
The Climax mine reopened 5 years ago. The concentrate is trucked to Kremmling where it is transferred to UP's Moffat line. Last I checked, they produce about the equlivent of one covered hopper load per day. UP has already pulled the rails on their Leadville connection to the ex-C&S Climax branch.
The way things are going in Colorado with coal, I just hope the Moffat tunnel route can stay open!
Mark Meyer
I hope it's Stampede Pass, or all the work I did in the late 90's was for naught at prosser, Richland, Toppenish, Bristol and Cle Elum was for naught.
Woulda/Coulda/Shoulda don't cut it. UP still holds it as an escape route and it has come close to reopening twice before the coal slump hit. The reactivation of the Climax mine or Moffat Tunnel rehab may cause part of it or all of it (Gypsum to Parkdale) to reopen yet. ILRailFan is as bad as some of the trails nuts on the issue. (He ought to be more concerned about P&E Bloomington-Mansfield vanishing) Uncle Pete justifiably changed his position on shedding the line just after the merger. Leave it be.
caldreamer NEVER say NEVER. Remember that Stevens Pass was reopened after being closed for many years as a bypass or traffic into the Seattle area. BNSF thought it worth the cost of reopening and maintaining it, so who knows.
NEVER say NEVER. Remember that Stevens Pass was reopened after being closed for many years as a bypass or traffic into the Seattle area. BNSF thought it worth the cost of reopening and maintaining it, so who knows.
ILRAILFANWhat does it mean that it was mothballed? I feel like UP hasn't torn up the tracks yet bc they will bring it back. If not someone will purchase it and turn it into a commercial line since it's pretty historic and the scenery on the line is amazing.
You just answered your own question.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Thanks for the hard work in putting this together. You brought back many memories from my college train chasing days in the late 80s. It saddens me to think that I will never again hear the awesome sounds of 8 locomotives crawling up the 3% on the west side of the grade, a sound I will never forget.
I was thinking that the rail line does not get within walking distance of either Vail or Beaver Creek ski areas, but then I remembered that when I skied at Beaver Creek about 20 years ago, day skiers had to park near the tracks and take a 2 mile shuttle ride to the ski area. Vail was talking about creating another base area in Minturn, but that was dependant on UP selling the railyard real estate to the resort. Perhaps a trial service between Eagle Airport and Mnturn would be a reasonable start.
cstork:Good luck on your proposal. I certainly would ride that train. Kevin...I somehow missed your "publication" but had looked at the photos on the website. Today I saw the link and really enjoyed your work. It was depressing seeing the railroad, knowing there have been no trains for years. Next trip out I want to go to the summit/tunnel area. Meanwhile, I am looking thru my old railroad magazines on anything about Tennessee Pass and Colorado.
You did a great job. I really enjoyed reading it.
Ed
I'm putting together a proposal for a commuter train service along the Tennessee Pass route using DMU equipment. Hopefully UP will be willing to lease the tracks for this.
I will post the full proposal in a few weeks.
Here is a summary:
1) Eagle County attracts 550,000 winter tourists who stay on average 6 days and spend on average $2000 each. The railroad would provide a unique winter mountain experience from Eagle County.
2) The Salida/Buena Vista area attracts ~400,000 summer tourists a year. Of these, 200,000 spend on average $120 each for raft trips and $50 each for train trips.
3) The entire route along Tennessee Pass and the Upper Arkansas River valley is very scenic. The recent designation of Brown’s Canyon as a National Monument provides a lead marketing carrot.
4) The tracks and right of way are generally high quality.
5) The train would be different from other tourist railroads in that it provides attractive destinations in addition to a scenic journey. The train would connect the unique mountain towns of Eagle, Wolcott, Edwards, Avon, Minturn, Redcliff, Leadville, Granite, Buena Vista, and Salida. The most attractive of these towns are Avon, Minturn, Redcliff, Buena Vista, and Salida. There would be intermediate stops to access popular recreational locations for hiking, biking, and rafting (Camp Hale, Tennessee Pass, several river stops, 4 mile, Brown’s Canyon).
6) New light weight multiple unit rail equipment (DMUs) provide the key extra capabilities of speed, comfort, and low operating costs. This equipment is proven in the mountain grade and weather challenges of Norway and Switzerland.
7) The nearby Royal Gorge Railroad and Leadville Railroad show there is demand for a tourist railroad.
8) A train would be compatible with existing summer & winter mountain recreation and would diversify tourist options.
9) The train will be able to charge more per ride and distance than typical subsidized urban commuter railroads because of the tourist dimension.
10) A train that provides commuting as well as scenic tours provides much community benefit and is the best use of the valuable tracks. Local and state governments are likely to support this combined tourist/commuter railroad.
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