Same track, different speeds?

[daveklepper]

Look, we cannot make Americans into Germans. Nor should we want to. A certain amount of rough edges and conflict is built into every society. Including Germany, but it just shows up in other areas. The New York Times occasionally gets a bug up its .... and goes on a tack that has little relation to reality. Sure the UP makes mistakes. But the vast majority of the grade crossing happenings are drivers' faults and not the railroads'. For the Times to blow up a minority of incidents is simply unfair.

Ad of course there is my old schtick: We wouldn't have near the problem if the highway lobby-oil-auto people made SAFETY, rather than gas-oil-auto SALES, their main goal.

Railroads are also interested in making money. But they have a far better safety "culture" than the highway-auto-oil people. Otherwise we would have computers on cars that relate to wayside and to other cars in ways that reduce accidents. The technology has been around for a long time and would make a small incremental addition to the cost of the typical automobile. But even then of course we are all only human beings and yes railroads have also made safety errors.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul Milenkovic

Mark Hemphill: I don't mean to take the trial lawyer approach and say that individuals have no personal responsibility to protect themselves and that anything bad that happens to anybody is the fault of some corporation with deep pockets. And I hope I wasn't encouraging anyone to ever drive around crossing gates -- not only illegal, a highly dangerous activity. And there are often reasons for things to be a certain way, and us "amatuers" and "Monday morning quarterbacks" are wellsprings of advice that isn't thought out.

On the other hand, transportation of all modes is a social activity in our densely-travelled world and requires social cooperation for all parties involved.

How about if I leave railroads out of this. I got back from Philly -- attended a scientific conference -- and I was in the company of a colleague who introduced me to a graduate student who was travelling between Pittsburgh and Philly to locate medical patients with a rare combination of conditions in order to recruit them for a scientific study of that situation. The student talked about the risks of driving in the bad rains from the tail ends of the spate of hurricanes this year. My colleague added "oh, and I bet the Pennsylvania Turnpike always has construction on it."

Now road construction is a fact of life, and we all grump about it but if it doesn't get done we won't have any roads to travel on. And motorists drive to fast in construction zones, and this is also illegal and highly dangerous to crews and motorists alike, and technically it is all the fault of the impatient motorists, but do you suppose the people who plan road construction have a tiny-tiny role in any of this? Now I am one of these amateur-experts and have driven through many road construction zones on German and Austrian Autobahns. These zones are short, there are a slew of signs progressively slowing the speed limit and cutting out lanes, and there is a law in Germany that drivers are to take turns (one car from one lane, another car from another lane -- none of this trying to get the jump on the other driver to squeeze in that ties up traffic by making the lanes move in fits and starts -- Germans follow that kind of law because it is a German thing).

When folks close a lane in the U.S.A., the policy is to close down the lane for a long stretch on the idea that the big hit in road capacity is the bottleneck. Well not exactly true -- the longer you are restricted to one lane, there is an additional capacity reduction -- I am not a traffic engineer, I am only comparing what I see in Wisconsin agains what I had seen in Austria. On the other hand, maybe the Austrian construction break system, while better engineered is also much more expensive. Or maybe it needs the compulsive law-following of Germanic culture to work.

Anyway, Pennsylvania is famous, not only for road construction on the Turnpike but for shutting down lanes for very, very long stretches. It is so famous for this, 60 Minutes once did a piece about the fatality rate on the Turnpike. It turns out that truck drivers, professional drivers yes, and for the most part better than the average motorist, are under a lot of pressure to get to their destinations and do a lot of speeding and tailgating in these zones. These truckers and other motorists are breaking the law, and roads need maintenance, and maybe Pennsylvania needs more maintenance. Maybe their climate has freeze-thaw cycles we don't have in Wisconsin. Maybe their road construction people are corrupt and aren't doing a good job. But Pennsylvania stands out among states for particularly onerous road construction zones, and people are beginning to catch on that it is a safety hazaard.

Now back to the railroads. You had suggested one solutions is to do away with railroads, and it is not merely a rhetorical question. We have pretty much done away with private planes -- the little single propeller Pipers and Cessnas -- "because of those ##### trial lawyers and liability law!" Well not really. We have assigned a certain monetary value on human life and decided it was higher than the monetary value to allow Piper and Cessna to stay in business. Close rail down for safety reasons; close rail down for the safety reasons of "morons" who cannot follow simple safety rules? Well, we just about closed down general aviation on account of those "morons who can't follow the rules for safe operation of the aircraft they own and their families sue Piper and Cessna."

Another alternative is grade separation. Turns out you can separate grade and you will have thrill seekers trespassing -- the NEC has that problem. Guess you need razor wire and armed guards to keep everyone out. Rail has this problem of stopping distance and trains can't swerve to avoid hitting things.

The solution I am proposing is the German/Austrian model of sensible behavior by all parties involved. Motorists need to heed crossing gates. Authorities need to continue to educate the public on this issue. And railroads need to assess the manner in which they block crossings and the impact on motorists being tempted to not following the law. Maybe I am out of line for bringing this up for one train tying up a crossing for 20 minutes. But our poster was only inclined to park their for 20 minutes without getting really irate because our poster is a railfan. Most of the public are not railfans, and even the most law abiding among us are going to get really irritated waiting 20 minutes on a crossing gate. There may be a good reason for a railroad to tie up a crossing for 20 minutes, but it is bad policy.

One last item. I told another friend who has worked highways and railroads about how our free UW campus bus is tied up by people who don't seem to have used a transit system before. They don't listen to the driver ordering them to the back of the bus to allow more standees to board. This campus has had a certain anti-authoritarian stance since the Vietnam war protest days in Madison, and these students had this look like they were not going to be ordered around.

My friend replied "it is the American way -- the occupy the front of the bus, the back of church and the middle of the road." There is a certain tendancy in all of us to say "don't order me around and tell me what to do" and I think it is more true in American than German road manners. You can kind of tell the Americans in rental cars over there from the types of vehicles and the manner in which they tie up traffic. But on this grade crossing safety issue, we are doing to need social cooperation from motorists and the railroads, and if the rail people take the "don't tell us how to conduct our rail operations to suit motorists", that problem will persist.

a few comments...
1... did you get typers cramp?
2... are you done yet?
and 3..... and what is your point....becouse reading it...i must have missed it all together....


csx engineer

[Paul Milenkovic]

Mark Hemphill: I don't mean to take the trial lawyer approach and say that individuals have no personal responsibility to protect themselves and that anything bad that happens to anybody is the fault of some corporation with deep pockets. And I hope I wasn't encouraging anyone to ever drive around crossing gates -- not only illegal, a highly dangerous activity. And there are often reasons for things to be a certain way, and us "amatuers" and "Monday morning quarterbacks" are wellsprings of advice that isn't thought out.

On the other hand, transportation of all modes is a social activity in our densely-travelled world and requires social cooperation for all parties involved.

How about if I leave railroads out of this. I got back from Philly -- attended a scientific conference -- and I was in the company of a colleague who introduced me to a graduate student who was travelling between Pittsburgh and Philly to locate medical patients with a rare combination of conditions in order to recruit them for a scientific study of that situation. The student talked about the risks of driving in the bad rains from the tail ends of the spate of hurricanes this year. My colleague added "oh, and I bet the Pennsylvania Turnpike always has construction on it."

Now road construction is a fact of life, and we all grump about it but if it doesn't get done we won't have any roads to travel on. And motorists drive to fast in construction zones, and this is also illegal and highly dangerous to crews and motorists alike, and technically it is all the fault of the impatient motorists, but do you suppose the people who plan road construction have a tiny-tiny role in any of this? Now I am one of these amateur-experts and have driven through many road construction zones on German and Austrian Autobahns. These zones are short, there are a slew of signs progressively slowing the speed limit and cutting out lanes, and there is a law in Germany that drivers are to take turns (one car from one lane, another car from another lane -- none of this trying to get the jump on the other driver to squeeze in that ties up traffic by making the lanes move in fits and starts -- Germans follow that kind of law because it is a German thing).

When folks close a lane in the U.S.A., the policy is to close down the lane for a long stretch on the idea that the big hit in road capacity is the bottleneck. Well not exactly true -- the longer you are restricted to one lane, there is an additional capacity reduction -- I am not a traffic engineer, I am only comparing what I see in Wisconsin agains what I had seen in Austria. On the other hand, maybe the Austrian construction break system, while better engineered is also much more expensive. Or maybe it needs the compulsive law-following of Germanic culture to work.

Anyway, Pennsylvania is famous, not only for road construction on the Turnpike but for shutting down lanes for very, very long stretches. It is so famous for this, 60 Minutes once did a piece about the fatality rate on the Turnpike. It turns out that truck drivers, professional drivers yes, and for the most part better than the average motorist, are under a lot of pressure to get to their destinations and do a lot of speeding and tailgating in these zones. These truckers and other motorists are breaking the law, and roads need maintenance, and maybe Pennsylvania needs more maintenance. Maybe their climate has freeze-thaw cycles we don't have in Wisconsin. Maybe their road construction people are corrupt and aren't doing a good job. But Pennsylvania stands out among states for particularly onerous road construction zones, and people are beginning to catch on that it is a safety hazaard.

Now back to the railroads. You had suggested one solutions is to do away with railroads, and it is not merely a rhetorical question. We have pretty much done away with private planes -- the little single propeller Pipers and Cessnas -- "because of those ##### trial lawyers and liability law!" Well not really. We have assigned a certain monetary value on human life and decided it was higher than the monetary value to allow Piper and Cessna to stay in business. Close rail down for safety reasons; close rail down for the safety reasons of "morons" who cannot follow simple safety rules? Well, we just about closed down general aviation on account of those "morons who can't follow the rules for safe operation of the aircraft they own and their families sue Piper and Cessna."

Another alternative is grade separation. Turns out you can separate grade and you will have thrill seekers trespassing -- the NEC has that problem. Guess you need razor wire and armed guards to keep everyone out. Rail has this problem of stopping distance and trains can't swerve to avoid hitting things.

The solution I am proposing is the German/Austrian model of sensible behavior by all parties involved. Motorists need to heed crossing gates. Authorities need to continue to educate the public on this issue. And railroads need to assess the manner in which they block crossings and the impact on motorists being tempted to not following the law. Maybe I am out of line for bringing this up for one train tying up a crossing for 20 minutes. But our poster was only inclined to park their for 20 minutes without getting really irate because our poster is a railfan. Most of the public are not railfans, and even the most law abiding among us are going to get really irritated waiting 20 minutes on a crossing gate. There may be a good reason for a railroad to tie up a crossing for 20 minutes, but it is bad policy.

One last item. I told another friend who has worked highways and railroads about how our free UW campus bus is tied up by people who don't seem to have used a transit system before. They don't listen to the driver ordering them to the back of the bus to allow more standees to board. This campus has had a certain anti-authoritarian stance since the Vietnam war protest days in Madison, and these students had this look like they were not going to be ordered around.

My friend replied "it is the American way -- the occupy the front of the bus, the back of church and the middle of the road." There is a certain tendancy in all of us to say "don't order me around and tell me what to do" and I think it is more true in American than German road manners. You can kind of tell the Americans in rental cars over there from the types of vehicles and the manner in which they tie up traffic. But on this grade crossing safety issue, we are doing to need social cooperation from motorists and the railroads, and if the rail people take the "don't tell us how to conduct our rail operations to suit motorists", that problem will persist.

[Paul Milenkovic]

This is perhaps a little off-topic for this thread but not for the general forum. A big problem of this slow train tying up the grade crossing is the "crying wolf" effect.

We talk about how the general public are such complete idiots when it comes to grade crossing safety, but when you tie up grade crossings with slow moving trains like that, you create an incentive for folks to break the law and try and beat the gates or go around the gates (after all, the trains are slow, or it is some switch engine that keeps tripping the gates) and then the fast train comes through and bam!

I am sure the railroad has some operational reason for running that train slow as well as some safety reason, but tying up a grade crossing has an effect on degrading safety as well.

[csxengineer98]

could have been a tempory speed restriction put on by MOW for that train only..like a broken rail that was being repaired..and the first train over it is to go walking speed or at a set speed restiction to make sure the rail is ok for main track speeds by the following trains.... also..the train could have been running on a "bad" signal...running on a restricting.... also...a train ahead of it might have gone into emergancy at some point near that crossing...the next train past normaly runs at resticted speed from the point where the train went into emergancy and to the point where the head end of it stopped..this is done to make sure the track is ok... befor following trains are alowed to run at track speed agin...
csx engineer

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

BaltACD raises a good possibility, and I should not venture into such treacherous waters with my limited knowledge, but:

I don't think BaltACD's answer is correct. The way Kathi described it, the train was going extremely slow. If the engine were struggling with a load at that speed, wouldn't there be overheating problems?

My only explanation is that it had a red or yellow light in the next block and was traveling at a speed that it could stop at the light? A problem with a particular car might also be an explanation.

BaltACD, please correct me if my analysis is faulty, I don't know that much about traction motors.

Gabe

Minimun continuous speed for DC engines ranges from 9.0 MPH to about 12.0 MPH....both of which, when waiting on a train to pass a point are interminably slow.

AC engines don't have a minimum continuous speed....AC motors can creep along at a snails pace without overheating (at least in theory).

[Kathi Kube]

Thanks, guys, for the help. That'll teach me to leave my scanner behind for even a night.

Randy, thanks especially for your insight on the area. I wonder why traffic was so heavy? Typically, I see a westbound headed toward me around 6 or so, and the only eastbound I've seen has been the Empire Builder around 4 or so — if I happen to leave work that early. But there's been a lot more traffic here lately. If the weather were a little nicer I'd have to take advantage of that.

Either way, it looks like I'll be seeing you in spring.

Take care!
Kathi

[Randy Stahl]

I know the spot Kathi speaks of, most likely the slower train was running in an occupied block (ABS) at restricted speed. East bound was right on the heels of another train. Trains are often held at Grand Ave. for a yard track to open up. and sometimes trains coming out of Muskego yard are crossed over at the old cut off.
Randy

[CShaveRR]

BaltACD's probably right. However, there are other possibilities, any of which would not affect a train on the adjacent track:
--slow order on that track (you have to think that trackwork was not being performed, otherwise the train on the other track would probably be slowed, too).
--following another train
--signal failure
--moving slowly in response to a defect detector (is there one anywhere around?)
So many possibilities!

[gabe]

BaltACD raises a good possibility, and I should not venture into such treacherous waters with my limited knowledge, but:

I don't think BaltACD's answer is correct. The way Kathi described it, the train was going extremely slow. If the engine were struggling with a load at that speed, wouldn't there be overheating problems?

My only explanation is that it had a red or yellow light in the next block and was traveling at a speed that it could stop at the light? A problem with a particular car might also be an explanation.

BaltACD, please correct me if my analysis is faulty, I don't know that much about traction motors.

Gabe

[BaltACD]

I would suspect that you 'slow' train was a victim of engine failure....Had enough power to keep moving on the territory....just not enough to move at a reasonable speed.

As all railroaders know....Engine failures do happen!

[Kathi Kube]

I'm confused.

A few days ago I was leaving work and was held at a two-main CPR crossing a few minutes north of the office for an eastbound train. The locomotives had already passed by the time I got there, so I've no idea what motive power it had.

But it was SOOOOO slow! Now I enjoy getting stuck at crossings as much as the next guys (and a lot more than most), but I was there seriously 20 minutes.

Unfortunately, I had left my scanner at work, so I couldn't listen in and try to figure out what was up. But then, to confound matters more, a westbound came by at normal track speed — and the eastbound was still going after the westbound left. (First time I've seen a meet there, though, so that was cool!)

One possibility could be that the train going east was too heavy for its motive power. But the train was primarily autoracks, and most likely empty going that direction.

Any ideas? Curiosity may have killed the cat, but it employs the Kathi. (Just be very careful, Mookie. Curiosity never kills careful kitties.)

Thanks!

Kathi