jeffhergertI've had a few engines equipped with the inward cameras. Could anyone please tell me how this made me safer?
By aiding investigators when something does go wrong, to help prevent a recurrence in the future.
That doesn't mean that it's a worthwhile investment, that the system won't be abused, etc. But it's quite clear how it theoretically should work.
Fred Frailey, while I never agree with the man, seems just as puzzled as you are. I guess he doesn't understand the entire point of investigating an incident. We don't have a NTSB, for instance, just to satisfy our morbid curiousity.
We have it to hopefully pinpoint the causes that contributed to an incident, to assist us in hopefully preventing it from happening again in the future.
That's how this can contribute to your safety in the cab, just as your rulebook has been formed over the decades by addressing past incidents that have killed and injured past employees, to prevent it from happening again to you.
Not to mention, assuming it's properly used and not being routinely monitored and abused just to nail you for something minor and unimportant, it could actually absolve you from blame when something does go seriously wrong.
Plenty of people have been quick to blame the engineer here. While I haven't been keeping up with the news here, if the jury is still out and there was something out of his control that directly led to this, a camera just might help him sleep at night, save his reputation and career, etc.
ACY I can understand the clamor for inward facing cameras, but would like to point out that they will only tell us, after a wreck, what the crew was doing up to the time of the wreck. They amount to a post-mortem investigative tool; but unless there is more to them than I have been led to believe, THEY WILL NOT PREVENT THE WRECK.
I can understand the clamor for inward facing cameras, but would like to point out that they will only tell us, after a wreck, what the crew was doing up to the time of the wreck. They amount to a post-mortem investigative tool; but unless there is more to them than I have been led to believe, THEY WILL NOT PREVENT THE WRECK.
Everything else equal, a camera wouldn't of prevented this wreck.
But if an inward facing camera was present, whose to say that it couldn't help prevent a future wreck by assisting in this investigation and helping pinpoint exactly what went wrong?
That's why they investigate, after all.
NP EddieIt would seem that the 601 and the passenger cars will repaired as the NTSB and lawyers are finished with their investigations.
This locomotive was just as new and looked to just suffer fairly minor damage, yet was still a write-off. So I wouldn't be so sure.
This was a very violent wreck. With how a modern passenger locomotive is designed to sacrifice itself to absorb the energy during an incident, this brand new Amtrak electric might have structual damage that's uneconomical to repair.
Leo_Ames This was a very violent wreck. With how a modern passenger locomotive is designed to sacrifice itself to absorb the energy during an incident, this brand new Amtrak electric might have structual damage that's uneconomical to repair.
The wreck was high speed, but except for the 1st car that wrapped around the catenary pole. not terribly violent as no 'immovable' objects were directly struck - just a whole lot of moving off the rails
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Leo_AmesEverything else equal, a camera wouldn't of prevented this wreck. But if an inward facing camera was present, whose to say that it couldn't help prevent a future wreck by assisting in this investigation and helping pinpoint exactly what went wrong? That's why they investigate, after all.
+1 Precisely. aka, learning from the past mistakes so as to better prevent them in the future.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
BaltACD Leo_Ames This was a very violent wreck. With how a modern passenger locomotive is designed to sacrifice itself to absorb the energy during an incident, this brand new Amtrak electric might have structual damage that's uneconomical to repair. The wreck was high speed, but except for the 1st car that wrapped around the catenary pole. not terribly violent as no 'immovable' objects were directly struck - just a whole lot of moving off the rails
That's my assumption, as well.
But it also was when I first saw a picture of that NJT locomotive. To the untrained eye, that's nothing evident that a few days in a shop couldn't cure. But obviously, they don't retire brand new locomotives that are pushing the $10 million dollar mark lightly. The structual integrity must be shot and she's of no use beyond serving as a parts source.
So it will be interesting to see what happens here, especially now that a few weeks have gone by and it doesn't look harsh to be speculating and curious about the fate of the equipment (For some reason, some people think the two should be mutually exclusive somehow, and that it's callous to be curious about the equipment when the accident is fresh).
Leo,
I'm guessing here, but the NJT locomotive's frame appears bent. It also appears that the collision posts that protect the crew are deformed. There is probably a lot of hidden damage that makes repair uneconomical.
Norm
What we think of as the "frame" sure doesn't look bent to me. Realize though that we're talking about a monocoque body, and that it doesn't have what we traditionally think of as a frame. Same with the ASC-64 like the locomotive in question.
What I see in that picture is the sort of damage that in past generations of North American passenger power, like an F40PH or even something as recent as the F59PH (North Carolina has one that has experienced multiple incidents that left damage that didn't look much different), would've been repairable and returned to service in fairly short order without question.
This is a heavy amount of speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if an E or F unit would've gotten through unscatched in the same incident that wrote off this locomotive, without the carbody breaking behind the cab to absorb some of the impact.
Either way, with the energy involved in a high speed derailment like this, there very well may be more in question here that just what meets the eye.
In the front pages of the current (July 2015 ) issue of Trains is a "Letter to the Editor" from an Amtrak PR guy attempting to rebut a recent Don Phillips column by claiming how Amtrak has improved its safety culture and statistics . . . (talk about "jinxing" the operation and/ or "famous last words . . . ).
- Paul North.
Paul_D_North_Jr In the front pages of the current (July 2015 ) issue of Trains is a "Letter to the Editor" from an Amtrak PR guy attempting to rebut a recent Don Phillips column by claiming how Amtrak has improved its safety culture and statistics . . . (talk about "jinxing" the operation and/ or "famous last words . . . ). - Paul North.
The same 'figures' can be stated to prove any point one wants to make - pro or con.
Figures don't lie but ...
Statistics can be misused (like anything) but they are an essential component in science and other aspects of modernity. Trouble is, most people do not understand them at all.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/06/02/ntsb-report-amtrak-crash-philadelphia/28348719/
BaltACD http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/06/02/ntsb-report-amtrak-crash-philadelphia/28348719/
So far, the focus seems to be on factors and events related to human error.
It is looking that way. One of the new sites published a link to the NTSB preliminary. They, thus far, have found no mechanical anomilies or defects in the equipment.
wanswheel Excerpt from The Washington Post, June 2 http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/investigators-was-amtrak-engineer-using-cell-phone-when-train-crashed/2015/06/02/eaadd24e-0947-11e5-9e39-0db921c47b93_story.html Dennis Pierce, president of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen, first said the cameras were “un-American” and then clarified the union’s position after coming under fire from committee members. “There are privacy concerns about the storage of [camera] data,” he said. “Nobody wants to see their last moment on earth floating around on YouTube.”
MrLynn I think it's a given that "last moments" are likely to be captured—that's the point. But I don't see any need to keep a perpetual record; like aircraft cockpit voice recorders, the last half-hour or so should be plenty. /Mr Lynn
The problem with the 'last half hour' on these systems is that they don't stop when the incident happens, like aircraft black boxes do when the plane goes down. With many incidents, it will take company and/or NTSB officials several hours to potentially a day or more to get in a position to download the data - operational and video from the data recorders on locomotives. In most incidents, the electrical power on the locomotive survives and continues powering the data recorders which continue to operate.
The current video recorders on my carriers locomotives have a 72 hour cycle time - then they begin to record over the older video.
23 17 46 11
edblysard Ours are digital, both the two outward facing cameras and the inward “in cab” camera, they all download via a wireless transmitter to our “down town” office, where a lot of stuff secretly and not so secretly makes the rounds. Depending on how it is stored, digital can be a “forever” item.
How many engines & crews are operating?
35 MK1500D (PTRA)locomotives, several Class 1 locomotives on unit trains and a average of 15 three man crews per shift, 3 shifts per 24 hours, several extras.
Superintendent has the ability to veiw the locomotive cameras in real time, or record them, plus something like six cameras in each of our yards, one in our lunch room.
Employee privacy is not a concern to the PTRA management.
That's just awful! Glad I'm close to retirement. I used to love my job.
Just remember to turn away from the camera when you have to pick your nose.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
With all those cameras that Ed listed - and any such other "Big Brother" type system - I usually wonder:
Who the heck has the time to watch/ read/ listen to all of it ? And/ or, the money to pay for someone else to do it ?
The sheer volume of material will likely preclude close review in most cases, unless something really bad occurred, or there's a vendetta against the employee who's the star of the show.
wanswheel Excerpt from Associated Press, June 2 An emotional Amtrak CEO pledged to lawmakers Tuesday that safety technology that could have prevented a deadly derailment last month in Philadelphia will be put into operation, while Democrats and Republicans exchanged barbs over whether Congress or the Obama administration is most to blame for railroads not installing the technology. "We are responsible for the incident and its consequences," Joseph Boardman told a House transportation committee hearing. His voice breaking, Boardman said equipping trains with positive train control, a technology that can prevent trains from derailing because of excessive speed, is the "single greatest contribution my generation of railroaders can make." http://www.c-span.org/video/?326321-1/hearing-amtrak-train-derailment [The C-Span video of today’s hearing is too long to sit and watch, but it’s listenable as ‘talk radio.’ Several others, NTSB chairman, Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers & Trainmen president, also testified.]
edblysard 35 MK1500D (PTRA)locomotives, several Class 1 locomotives on unit trains and a average of 15 three man crews per shift, 3 shifts per 24 hours, several extras. Superintendent has the ability to veiw the locomotive cameras in real time, or record them, plus something like six cameras in each of our yards, one in our lunch room. Employee privacy is not a concern to the PTRA management.
Some of our away from home lodging facilities are equipped with cameras in the hall ways. (The Oak Tree Inns, primarily a railroad contractor but they do advertise and take the general public.) They don't have them in the crew lounge, but the one outside it does have a microphone. These cameras are accessible by both motel and railroad management.
I think it supplies the blooper reel for the Executive Christmas party.
Jeff
Euclid What is the maximum possible speed at which the Amtrak train could have negotiated that curve without derailing? I assume that there is a known speed at which the train would have tipped over. I don't recall seeing that tip-over speed reported.
What is the maximum possible speed at which the Amtrak train could have negotiated that curve without derailing? I assume that there is a known speed at which the train would have tipped over. I don't recall seeing that tip-over speed reported.
wanswheel Paul, your ten90solutions guy sounds kind of cranky. He’ll be Andy Rooney in 20 years.
THAT LONG??? He sounds like he's already there or he's trying to drum up business for a law firm.
MrLynnI think it's a given that "last moments" are likely to be captured—that's the point. But I don't see any need to keep a perpetual record; like aircraft cockpit voice recorders, the last half-hour or so should be plenty.
AFIK Cockpit Recorders record the last 24 hours (or something) and then write over. Maybe I am wrong, but that happens when you get your information from Tom Clancy
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
A standard CVR is capable of recording 4 channels of audio data for a period of 2 hours.
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