[quote user="Buslist"]
[quote user="oltmannd]
I have no idea what the software testing standard for PTC is, or will be. It most certainly won't (and can't) rise to the "fail safe" standard of signal system hardware and software.
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FRA rules require 99.9... (5 9s) reliable, how can that be assured ?
In the non-PTC world, all the safety critical stuff is in the signal bungalo and locomotive cab signal box. In the PTC world, all that safety critical stuff is now distributed all over creation. You have a braking algorithm that depends on a consist? You've just added AEI scanners and tags and hump scales to your safety system. You want transmit a movement authority? Now all the radios and dispatching system and software are part of the safety system.
You can't even begin to test this stuff "track circuit and interlocking" reliability and test every failure mode.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Dakguy201 This is an article by someone with a background in disaster management who happened to be a passenger on train 188. In brief, it suggests the Philadelphia police and fire departments responded with the competent professionalism we hope all such organizations possess, but Amtrak performed poorly in the days following the wreck. http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/05/amtrak-188-survivor-118123.html
This is an article by someone with a background in disaster management who happened to be a passenger on train 188. In brief, it suggests the Philadelphia police and fire departments responded with the competent professionalism we hope all such organizations possess, but Amtrak performed poorly in the days following the wreck.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/05/amtrak-188-survivor-118123.html
Yes. Interesting. Amtrak is disfunctional at many levels, it seems.
What I've yet to hear is any report on the performance of the train crew after the wreck. I'd like to think they are well trained on what to do. We often hear that we can't have non-railroad service employees on trains because they are aren't trained in how to deal with disasters. It would be good to know how those who are trained performed.
oltmannd...In the PTC world, all that safety critical stuff is now distributed all over creation...
Moving for a moment from failure senarios to vadalism or worse, doesn't this make an already somewhat vulnerable system even MORE vulnerable to attack?
wanswheel The damage to the windshield occurred either before or after the crash became inevitable. It’s either crucial or irrelevant.
The damage to the windshield occurred either before or after the crash became inevitable. It’s either crucial or irrelevant.
+1
And we may never know.
WDGF oltmannd ...In the PTC world, all that safety critical stuff is now distributed all over creation... Moving for a moment from failure senarios to vadalism or worse, doesn't this make an already somewhat vulnerable system even MORE vulnerable to attack?
oltmannd ...In the PTC world, all that safety critical stuff is now distributed all over creation...
Yep. But the current system is pretty vunerable as it is.
Best quote in article: "Going forward, it’s pretty clear that Amtrak needs a real overhaul. However, the way to accomplish that is not to cut the budget while leaving management and board exactly as they are, but to do the reverse."
oltmannd Dakguy201 This is an article by someone with a background in disaster management who happened to be a passenger on train 188. In brief, it suggests the Philadelphia police and fire departments responded with the competent professionalism we hope all such organizations possess, but Amtrak performed poorly in the days following the wreck. http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/05/amtrak-188-survivor-118123.html Best quote in article: "Going forward, it’s pretty clear that Amtrak needs a real overhaul. However, the way to accomplish that is not to cut the budget while leaving management and board exactly as they are, but to do the reverse."
Don Phillips has been saying that for years.
Norm
Norm48327 Euclid (1) They are continually stressing that they heard no communication from the engineer saying his train was struck by projectiles. This almost seems like more of Sumwalt “downplaying” the whole projectile angle of the story as if to imply that the Amtrak train was not struck by projectiles before it derailed. Yet two other trains did report being hit in windshield by projectiles in the same area and almost the same time. At least one of those reports did include the possibility of the projectiles being gunfire. The appearance of the projectile damage on the two trains is fundamentally identical. And while we don’t have any crewmember report of the Amtrak train being hit by projectiles, that locomotive too has a pattern of the same fundamental damage to its windshield. If you look at close-up photos of the locomotive windshields of the three trains, the similarity is undeniable. (2) I sense that this whole projectile theory is a real political hot potato, and unbearably so if the projectiles were bullets. It opens the door to a criminal cause of the wreck for a variety of possible motives. Think real hard about number one. Something hits the windshield; are you going to talk on the radio or DUCK? (2) It could very well be, and if so, they are not willing to make it public for valid reasons. As Schlimm said, your conspiracy theory is getting out of hand.
Euclid (1) They are continually stressing that they heard no communication from the engineer saying his train was struck by projectiles. This almost seems like more of Sumwalt “downplaying” the whole projectile angle of the story as if to imply that the Amtrak train was not struck by projectiles before it derailed. Yet two other trains did report being hit in windshield by projectiles in the same area and almost the same time. At least one of those reports did include the possibility of the projectiles being gunfire. The appearance of the projectile damage on the two trains is fundamentally identical. And while we don’t have any crewmember report of the Amtrak train being hit by projectiles, that locomotive too has a pattern of the same fundamental damage to its windshield. If you look at close-up photos of the locomotive windshields of the three trains, the similarity is undeniable. (2) I sense that this whole projectile theory is a real political hot potato, and unbearably so if the projectiles were bullets. It opens the door to a criminal cause of the wreck for a variety of possible motives.
Think real hard about number one. Something hits the windshield; are you going to talk on the radio or DUCK?
(2) It could very well be, and if so, they are not willing to make it public for valid reasons.
As Schlimm said, your conspiracy theory is getting out of hand.
Euclid The ONLY thing that failing to make the report indicates is that no report was made. It has nothing to do with whether or not projectiles hit the train. We already know that the engineer does not recall anything during the period in which the projectiles hit the train. We do not know why. There may have not been time to report the projectiles before the wreck. Or that engineer may have postponed the report for a few minutes, and never had a chance to make it before the wreck. Or the engineer may have been incapacitated somehow and unable to make the report.
The investigation is still ongoing, and any official report on the accident will be some time off in being released.
You are reverting back to speculation and not relying on factual information.
An Amtrak conductor from Kearny made a dramatic escape from a train that derailed outside Philadelphia last week, crawling from the wreckage despite a broken neck and back, his attorney said today.
Bruce Nagel, who filed suit against Amtrak on behalf of Emilio Fonseca and his wife Leticia Oliveira on Monday, said doctors were calling the 33-year-old a "miracle man" for surviving the May 12 crash...
Euclid, I hope when you say projectile you don't intend to mean deliberately propelled projectiles, such as from a gun. The projectiles that caused locomotive glass damage could be debris that the crash hurled.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
Murray:
"You are reverting back to speculation and not relying on factual information."
Bucky rely on facts? No; he just keeps going in circles hoping to prove his theory is the only correct one.
Murray Euclid The ONLY thing that failing to make the report indicates is that no report was made. It has nothing to do with whether or not projectiles hit the train. We already know that the engineer does not recall anything during the period in which the projectiles hit the train. We do not know why. There may have not been time to report the projectiles before the wreck. Or that engineer may have postponed the report for a few minutes, and never had a chance to make it before the wreck. Or the engineer may have been incapacitated somehow and unable to make the report. The investigation is still ongoing, and any official report on the accident will be some time off in being released. You are reverting back to speculation and not relying on factual information.
That is correct Murray.
gardendance Euclid, I hope when you say projectile you don't intend to mean deliberately propelled projectiles, such as from a gun. The projectiles that caused locomotive glass damage could be debris that the crash hurled.
Patrick, I agree that the "projectiles" could have been debris. They also could have been something else (phaser beams perhhaps) and I'm thinking the NTSB does not want to spill the beans at this time. I'm willing to wait for factual information.
EuclidWhy stress that the engineer made no report of projectiles when evidence shows, and the NTSB says, that the train was hit by projectiles?
No, the train MAY have been hit by projectiles. Something definitely hit the windshield. They haven't determined if it was prior to the accident or happened during the accident. The side of the engine was damaged by striking something (scrape marks, panel knocked off, etc.) it is also possible that the damage to the windshield occurred after it derailed and the reason the engineer doesn't remember it before the derailmnet is because he wasn't hit by "projectiles" prior to derailing.
People are speculating and then after they say a speculation ten times, people start believing their own speculations.
Personally I think the engine hit a sign, post, mile marker, switch stand or some other object as it slid across the open area and that's what impacted the window.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
The SEPTA engineer did not notice anything "unusual" about Amtrak 188 as it passed him.... At what speed? Kinda hard to notice details of a car passing you doing 55MPH at night, (to prove, watch a car go by you while you stand next to the road after dark, then tell me if it was a male or female driving, and what color their hair is.... With a dark interior, you cannot, nor can you see their windshield.) let alone a train doing 70+.... And, key question, could this have occurred BEFORE any alleged projectile strikes? Just because he didn't notice anything doesn't mean it wasn't there.... Just like just because dispatch never recorded a transmission about alleged strike doesn't mean he didn't say it over the radio to his crew like they reported.
NOTE: Nowhere am I here saying that the alleged projectile hit occurred before the crash, just pointing out it is still possible, as the NTSB has not said one way or the other as to if it did or did not. Also, it is entirely possible that the SEPTA engineer missed something, as 188 was moving by in the night. Also, were they not going the same direction? Kinda hard to see these details already, now you are having it come from behind you? (Go see that car again, but this time, have it come from behind you, and watch as it goes passed, tell me what it's windshield looks like, and male or female again. I will spot you the hair color this time though...)I do not see how it is even possible for the SEPTA engineer to even notice 188's front windshield now.... Kinda easy to miss something "unusual" in something you can't clearly see.
And, could he have been hit, and distracted from where along the line he was? Possible. At least until NTSB says it's not.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
ricktrains4824The SEPTA engineer did not notice anything "unusual" about Amtrak 188 as it passed him
More importantly this gives us critical information.
According to the SEPTA engineer the AMTK train called him and warned him that the AMTK train was passing.
We now know that at that time, the AMTK engineer was awake.
The AMTK engineer was "situationally aware", he knew where he was, he knew where the SEPTA train was, he was aware that his train posed a risk to the other train. AMTK called SEPTA, AMTK initiated the transmission.
We can be almost completely certain that nothing had happened to the AMTK train at that time because he communicated to another train and didn't mention any exceptions.
What I have never seen mentined is where and when he passed the SEPTA train. How close was it to where the derailment was?
If you mean the SEPTA train whose windshield was shattered, it stopped at North Philly, so Amtk 188 must have passed it by North Philly.
I'm not sure how much "risk to the other train" was involved, they were on different tracks. Are they in the habit of radioing each other as they pass in the same direction on different tracks?
While it may not be required by rule, warning a train crew you are going to pass beside them is normal, you don't want anyone stepping out thinking the track is clear.
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Norm48327 oltmannd Dakguy201 This is an article by someone with a background in disaster management who happened to be a passenger on train 188. In brief, it suggests the Philadelphia police and fire departments responded with the competent professionalism we hope all such organizations possess, but Amtrak performed poorly in the days following the wreck. http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/05/amtrak-188-survivor-118123.html Best quote in article: "Going forward, it’s pretty clear that Amtrak needs a real overhaul. However, the way to accomplish that is not to cut the budget while leaving management and board exactly as they are, but to do the reverse." Don Phillips has been saying that for years.
He seems to have a bug up his **** for Boardman.
gardendance If you mean the SEPTA train whose windshield was shattered, it stopped at North Philly, so Amtk 188 must have passed it by North Philly. I'm not sure how much "risk to the other train" was involved, they were on different tracks.
I'm not sure how much "risk to the other train" was involved, they were on different tracks.
If the SEPTA train was stopping to investigate the broken window, then there is the possibility of someone being on the ground around the train, or at least focused on something other than the tracks around them. Warning them that you will be passing by them at high speed in close proximity is the safe course.
oltmannd He seems to have a bug up his **** for Boardman.
Yup listented to him speak at NWU last year and I can support that point of view. He bitched about him the whole time.
schlimm Euclid They are continually stressing that they heard no communication from the engineer saying his train was struck by projectiles. This almost seems like more of Sumwalt “downplaying” the whole projectile angle of the story as if to imply that the Amtrak train was not struck by projectiles before it derailed. Yet two other trains did report being hit in windshield by projectiles in the same area and almost the same time. At least one of those reports did include the possibility of the projectiles being gunfire. The appearance of the projectile damage on the two trains is fundamentally identical. And while we don’t have any crewmember report of the Amtrak train being hit by projectiles, that locomotive too has a pattern of the same fundamental damage to its windshield. If you look at close-up photos of the locomotive windshields of the three trains, the similarity is undeniable. I sense that this whole projectile theory is a real political hot potato, and unbearably so if the projectiles were bullets. It opens the door to a criminal cause of the wreck for a variety of possible motives. News flash: The FBI ruled out bullet marks on the Amtrak train. But you seem intent on weaving some conspiracy of criminals and a government cover-up so I suppose the FBI's and NTSB's statements are all part of "plausible deniability" in your tale.
Euclid They are continually stressing that they heard no communication from the engineer saying his train was struck by projectiles. This almost seems like more of Sumwalt “downplaying” the whole projectile angle of the story as if to imply that the Amtrak train was not struck by projectiles before it derailed. Yet two other trains did report being hit in windshield by projectiles in the same area and almost the same time. At least one of those reports did include the possibility of the projectiles being gunfire. The appearance of the projectile damage on the two trains is fundamentally identical. And while we don’t have any crewmember report of the Amtrak train being hit by projectiles, that locomotive too has a pattern of the same fundamental damage to its windshield. If you look at close-up photos of the locomotive windshields of the three trains, the similarity is undeniable. I sense that this whole projectile theory is a real political hot potato, and unbearably so if the projectiles were bullets. It opens the door to a criminal cause of the wreck for a variety of possible motives.
News flash: The FBI ruled out bullet marks on the Amtrak train. But you seem intent on weaving some conspiracy of criminals and a government cover-up so I suppose the FBI's and NTSB's statements are all part of "plausible deniability" in your tale.
dehusman gardendance If you mean the SEPTA train whose windshield was shattered, it stopped at North Philly, so Amtk 188 must have passed it by North Philly. I'm not sure how much "risk to the other train" was involved, they were on different tracks. If the SEPTA train was stopping to investigate the broken window, then there is the possibility of someone being on the ground around the train, or at least focused on something other than the tracks around them. Warning them that you will be passing by them at high speed in close proximity is the safe course.
That's IF the SEPTA train had stopped at the scene. I thought I had read that it had stopped at North Philly station. I don't remember reading anything that said it had stopped at the scene.
Of course just because I don't remember reading about it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Does anybody know how many times, when and where the damaged SEPTA train stopped, and where did AMTK 188 pass it?
My theory of the moment is:
After the train derailed, the engineer got out, and while cursing the situation, threw rocks at the windshield.
Makes about as much sense as some postulations.
Nomex suit going on now.
Norm, the suit would make you very fire proof. With all the spectulation going on , some one will get the right story that will be the same as the NTSB. Then he will be saying ( I told you so) .
Y6bs evergreen in my mind
dehusmanThe side of the engine was damaged by striking something (scrape marks, panel knocked off, etc.)
Probably the alien spacecraft with the tractor beam that pulled the train up to high speed and off the tracks.
"Perhaps, the semantics of my comment allows you to conclude what I said to mean that I am personally advancing a theory that gunfire was involved despite the FBI finding to the contrary. That is not the case. My theory is only about the motivation behind what we are being told by Sumwalt. I am referring to the motivation before gunfire was ruled out, and apparently continuing after that point".
This is the same FBI that didn't think foreign nationals taking flying lessons and not wanting to learn how to take off and land a 737 wasn't worth considering.
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