How did the $%^% we get here? However I am learning something new abot RRing that I never knew before!
"Chapters on the Erie" was a fine work of history, hardly muchraking, unless Pollyannas think anything that gives a factual account of both triumphs and corruption of a railroad is such.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
He was referring to that Charles Francis Adams as if he were an inflammatory journalist - perhaps having been exposed to his "Notes on Railway Accidents" (with its eerie description of oil-car accidents).
Enough to make people who care about historiography tear their hair - if any is left from all the other things happening to objective truth these days. [/rant]
Wizlish Victrola1 http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/general-article/tcrr-scandal/ " ... young muckraker Charles Francis Adams"??? HOW many years before there was actually 'muckraking'??? I hate it when the wrong kind of amateurs try to do revisionist or supposedly topical history.
Victrola1 http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/general-article/tcrr-scandal/
" ... young muckraker Charles Francis Adams"???
HOW many years before there was actually 'muckraking'???
I hate it when the wrong kind of amateurs try to do revisionist or supposedly topical history.
One wonders which Charles Francis Adams he referred to? Senior was a distinguished federal diplomat and politician, son of John Quincy Adams. CFA Jr. was president of the UP for six years. Son Henry was a fine historian, hardly a 'muckraker' by any stretch of the imagination.
Parts of it were built in Indiana
http://www.amazon.com/Faster-Than-Limiteds-Electric-Transformation/dp/0915348373
Rock Island-Erie Laccawanna to Youngstown B&P to Philly and Erie Buffalo Line
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Wizlish carnej1 "The Wrong Kind of Amateur"? What; like Trackrat?...... No, no, no ... I meant the carefully-kept-anonymous person or people who wrote that 'American Experience' piece. I apologize ... but not too much ... if the sarcasm is a bit too pointed. Certainly not criticizing Victrola1 or anyone else here.
carnej1 "The Wrong Kind of Amateur"? What; like Trackrat?......
No, no, no ... I meant the carefully-kept-anonymous person or people who wrote that 'American Experience' piece. I apologize ... but not too much ... if the sarcasm is a bit too pointed.
Certainly not criticizing Victrola1 or anyone else here.
All I was doing was making a quip about the O.P..
Like many threads he starts it seems to be bouncing back and forth between a serious discussion and wisecracking..
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
http://www.nychicagorr.org/History.html
The private sector already has plans a third of the way across.
The miracle of electric traction and following the crow's flight will reduce highway and air lane congestion in heavily populated areas. Sorry, Philadelphia, Pittsburg and Buffalo. The goal is San Fransisco.
Public sector support will be necessary west of the Great Lakes. The issue is where to start. Omaha makes sense. Besides, five or more private ventures can build for and fight over what interchange traffic there would be in between.
Hmmm, hope I'm not feeding the Trolls...
Victrola1http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/general-article/tcrr-scandal/
How to fund it all?
"For Union Pacific executive Thomas Durant, it was a money-making machine. It was a revolutionary business model previously unknown on American soil."
Even with hedge funds, Wall Street ain't what it used to be.
"We Should Not Be Interfered With"On the strength of renewed profits and a declared dividend, Credit Mobilier boomed. Congressman Oakes Ames, representing company interests on Capitol Hill, soon found himself overwhelmed with legislators demanding a piece of the action."
Hope still springs eternal in the public sector.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/general-article/tcrr-scandal/
We're doing just fine, thank you.
Considering the responses from our posters who are rather familiar with why freight railroading is in its current situation, I am confident that the following makes much more sense than the original post made:
Mairzy doats and dosy doats, the liddle lamsedivy, a kiddlydivy too, woodn't ju? A kiddlydivy too, woodn't ju?
For a translation, consult with Norris.
Johnny
These trains run to St. Mary's, or maybe Buffalo
As they roll right into Newark, oh never do they slow.
As we hear 'bout Colorado, members give an awful whine
They tell his concept's woeful, the Trackrat's brand new line...
ACY From the great Atlantic Ocean to the wide Pacific shore, From the green & growin' mountains to the south belt by the shore, She's mighty tall & handsome and she looks so mighty fine. It's a wondrous waste of money; it's the Trackrat's brand new line.
From the great Atlantic Ocean to the wide Pacific shore,
From the green & growin' mountains to the south belt by the shore,
She's mighty tall & handsome and she looks so mighty fine.
It's a wondrous waste of money; it's the Trackrat's brand new line.
Listen to the jangle of the syntax that's a bore
As he keeps on bringing up so many subjects we abhor
Hear the mighty rush of the trolling, hear proposals not so fine
As we navigate semantics of the Trackrat's brand new line...
ACY My head hurts. I'm not interested in playing "Link the Losers" tonight. T.
My head hurts. I'm not interested in playing "Link the Losers" tonight.
T.
That post, done by the O.P. is not only hard to decipher; while having it make any sense: [It requires a certain level of psychotomimetic (delta-9 THC) the (mindbending) ingredient of marijuana] to be able to read it and understand it. Too sick to even try it now.
April Fool's Day was 2 weeks ago . . .
More seriously: 3,000 miles coast-to-coast at $10 million per mile (WAG method estimate) = $30 Billion, about half the cost of Calif.'s HSR, roughly the value of each of the 6 big Class 1's (I think ?), and smaller than a lot of the Fortune 100 crowd (IIRC) and many Washington, D.C.-sponsored programs and initiatives, etc. So on the raw numbers, it's not like a moon shot, although the interest costs until it started earning money would eat the project alive. And remember Sen. Everett Dirksen's aphorism about "A billion here, a billion there - pretty soon you're talking about some real money !".
BUT, the opposition from the Class 1's (remember the DM&E's attempts to get approval for a line into the Powder River Basin ?), a tough showing of public need and necessity, environmental objections, right-of-way acquisition challenges and practical impossibilities across Federal and Native American lands, etc. - ain't gonna happen in the lifetime of anyone now living.
- Paul North.
This is a tough to answer, but I'll take a whack at it.
One piece at a time. My comments will be italicized so readers can decipher them.
trackrat888 Its 2015 and its been 100 years since that last class 1 railroad was built in this country. So far, so good. Our current railroad system is at capasity... and poorly run. Yep, capacity over parts of the existing national are strained a bit, but the carriers that operate those segments are doing their best to add capacity and make the system more fluid. ...and poorly run. Disagree. I believe that the quality of management in place on the Big 7 (BNSF, UP, CN, CP, NS, CSX and KCS) is so far ahead of where it was back in the days of ICC regulation that there's no comparison. The railroads that were built in the Great Lakes region where built on glacial fill. I-80/I86 is bumper to bumper with trucks despite passing thry no major population centers. Won't contest what the Heartland Railroads were built on. And I haven't travelled I-80 (never got to I-86) lately, so I cannot comment on whether it is at capacity. Keep in mind that I-80 was built fwith this in mind, though; it passes about as directly from New York to Chicago as could be prudently built from scratch. This was almost explicitly (almost, because nowhere have I seen it claimed overtly) as a freebie to Mother Trucker. So the road being crowded with big rigs comes as no surprise. But Conrail and NS down graded the Buffalo Line and even cut it in half at Philldelphia... Not sure what you mean by "the Buffalo Line." If you refer to the ex-PRR, North Jersey to Chicago, that route never went anywhere near Buffalo. And by cutting it in half at Philadelphia becomes meaningless, bordering on nonsensical. If you refer to the ex-NYC Water Level Route between North Jersey and Chicago, CSX owns it from somewhere in Ohio to NYC, via Buffalo, and has not downgraded it at all; in fact, it represents a key part of their route structure. So, to repeat, I'm not sure what you mean here. ...and Erie is cut at St. Marys PA. Yes, the ex-EL as a trunk line died during the Conrail reorganization, a product of poor operating characteristics and a victim of being one of too many routes linking NYC and CHGO, and if St Marys, PA is where it ends, I;m sure you're correct. It can take as long as 12 hours just to cover the last 60 miles into Newark New Jersey. Here your argument loses me. Into Newark from where? Via which route? Absent these small but key bits of information, we're off in the clouds. On the west end in Chicago trains have to be unloaded and reloaded because that is actualy faster then having a train attempt to pass through the city. I assume you refer to intermodal and stack trains, on which the boxes and trailers which are ticketed through Chicago are unloaded at one railroad's terminal and drayed (hauled by truck) to the next terminal for loading to their destination. This process, thankfully for shippers, does not apply to manifest traffic. The reason this operation occurs is that railroads take on single shipments at, say, North Jersey, bound for, say, the Bay Area, and nobody runs through trains from these two points because it doesn't pay them to. Why? Not enough traffic to make a train, maybe. Freight forwarders and shipment consolidators may get a better rate by aggregating trailers to Chicago and re-aggregating them to the destination on another carrier. Traffic is like water; all other things being equal, it tends to flow where the rate is lowest. Barring some Eureaka! moment that results in a better (lower cost) way of doing things, this practice is unlikely to change. [Ed. Note: I've kinda winged this part; if anyone can improve on it, I'd sure appreciate your input.] St Louis is prone now to civil unrest and LA is prone to labor unrest. Well, yeah, but problems like these, whether they apply to rail traffic or not, simply happen from time to time, as do acts of God (floods, tornados, blizzards, etc.), so it is unclear what these have to do with your thesis. Railroads wont take short haul freight under 400 miles... Not necessarily so. Depends on the commodity and the rate. Think of coal, grain moves, often for distances of less than 400 miles. For other traffic, especially truck-competitive traffic, why won't the railroads take on the business? Maybe their bean counters have figured out that it's almost impossible to make any money, so stay out of that market. The pre-Staggers railroad that was required to hall everything everywhere, at a rate imposed by the ICC, regardless of whether it paid the railroads to carry the freight, is long gone. Thankfully. ...and therefore is useless for alleviated congestion in the Northeast. Probably so. If states want to alleviate highway congestion, then tax the trucks. A good policy question. They wont work with Utlities to have power lines and railroads share right of way and power. When possible, railroads are pleased to have utilities share their right-of-way. Hey! Anything to have your physical plant sweat a few more dollars in revenue. Regarding sharing power, I assume you mean, first, building the electric power grid alongside main lines, and then, electrifying the lines so that the railroads have available a ready source of juice to power their trains. Great idea, only one problem: Money, Money, Money. Well, call it three problems, 'cause I said money three times. The cost of rebuilding the power grid, of buying all new locomotives, and stringing up electric wires to power the trains is massive. Where's it -- the money, the capital, the big bucks -- going to come from? As fas as passenger trains RR management know that there mode is so unsafe that they wont let themselves or there kids ride it and prefer company private jets for there family outings. Aside from the fact that a handful of railway executives -- we're talking COEs here -- command the oompf to rate the corporate jets, the IRS takes a dim view of using company assets for family excursions. Someone in the know would be bound to blow the whistle and raise a ruckus. Regarding the safety of their mode, I think it's a whole lot better than 30 years ago, when the general condition of raodway and rolling stock had deteriorated to the point that it was a national disgrace. So I don't think the safety of the mode is as bad as you would have us believe. Railroads average median speed for freight is 15 miles per hour. The actual route miles are 20-30% more then the freeways that are built next to them. Despite what I could go on and on with a litney of complaints which everyone here knows and could add on the Class Ones actulay made a small but reasonable profit. My first choice for a transcon would be the Philly and Erie and then the PLE/ Erie to Akron OH rebuild the Erie west of there. My second choice would be the West Shore and then a new railroad in the medium strip of I-90. The National Grid Power Lines right of ways could also make a good right of way as well.
Its 2015 and its been 100 years since that last class 1 railroad was built in this country.
So far, so good.
Our current railroad system is at capasity... and poorly run.
Yep, capacity over parts of the existing national are strained a bit, but the carriers that operate those segments are doing their best to add capacity and make the system more fluid.
...and poorly run.
Disagree. I believe that the quality of management in place on the Big 7 (BNSF, UP, CN, CP, NS, CSX and KCS) is so far ahead of where it was back in the days of ICC regulation that there's no comparison.
The railroads that were built in the Great Lakes region where built on glacial fill. I-80/I86 is bumper to bumper with trucks despite passing thry no major population centers.
Won't contest what the Heartland Railroads were built on. And I haven't travelled I-80 (never got to I-86) lately, so I cannot comment on whether it is at capacity. Keep in mind that I-80 was built fwith this in mind, though; it passes about as directly from New York to Chicago as could be prudently built from scratch. This was almost explicitly (almost, because nowhere have I seen it claimed overtly) as a freebie to Mother Trucker. So the road being crowded with big rigs comes as no surprise.
But Conrail and NS down graded the Buffalo Line and even cut it in half at Philldelphia...
Not sure what you mean by "the Buffalo Line." If you refer to the ex-PRR, North Jersey to Chicago, that route never went anywhere near Buffalo. And by cutting it in half at Philadelphia becomes meaningless, bordering on nonsensical. If you refer to the ex-NYC Water Level Route between North Jersey and Chicago, CSX owns it from somewhere in Ohio to NYC, via Buffalo, and has not downgraded it at all; in fact, it represents a key part of their route structure. So, to repeat, I'm not sure what you mean here.
...and Erie is cut at St. Marys PA.
Yes, the ex-EL as a trunk line died during the Conrail reorganization, a product of poor operating characteristics and a victim of being one of too many routes linking NYC and CHGO, and if St Marys, PA is where it ends, I;m sure you're correct.
It can take as long as 12 hours just to cover the last 60 miles into Newark New Jersey.
Here your argument loses me. Into Newark from where? Via which route? Absent these small but key bits of information, we're off in the clouds.
On the west end in Chicago trains have to be unloaded and reloaded because that is actualy faster then having a train attempt to pass through the city.
I assume you refer to intermodal and stack trains, on which the boxes and trailers which are ticketed through Chicago are unloaded at one railroad's terminal and drayed (hauled by truck) to the next terminal for loading to their destination. This process, thankfully for shippers, does not apply to manifest traffic. The reason this operation occurs is that railroads take on single shipments at, say, North Jersey, bound for, say, the Bay Area, and nobody runs through trains from these two points because it doesn't pay them to. Why? Not enough traffic to make a train, maybe. Freight forwarders and shipment consolidators may get a better rate by aggregating trailers to Chicago and re-aggregating them to the destination on another carrier. Traffic is like water; all other things being equal, it tends to flow where the rate is lowest. Barring some Eureaka! moment that results in a better (lower cost) way of doing things, this practice is unlikely to change. [Ed. Note: I've kinda winged this part; if anyone can improve on it, I'd sure appreciate your input.]
St Louis is prone now to civil unrest and LA is prone to labor unrest.
Well, yeah, but problems like these, whether they apply to rail traffic or not, simply happen from time to time, as do acts of God (floods, tornados, blizzards, etc.), so it is unclear what these have to do with your thesis.
Railroads wont take short haul freight under 400 miles...
Not necessarily so. Depends on the commodity and the rate. Think of coal, grain moves, often for distances of less than 400 miles. For other traffic, especially truck-competitive traffic, why won't the railroads take on the business? Maybe their bean counters have figured out that it's almost impossible to make any money, so stay out of that market. The pre-Staggers railroad that was required to hall everything everywhere, at a rate imposed by the ICC, regardless of whether it paid the railroads to carry the freight, is long gone. Thankfully.
...and therefore is useless for alleviated congestion in the Northeast.
Probably so. If states want to alleviate highway congestion, then tax the trucks. A good policy question.
They wont work with Utlities to have power lines and railroads share right of way and power.
When possible, railroads are pleased to have utilities share their right-of-way. Hey! Anything to have your physical plant sweat a few more dollars in revenue. Regarding sharing power, I assume you mean, first, building the electric power grid alongside main lines, and then, electrifying the lines so that the railroads have available a ready source of juice to power their trains. Great idea, only one problem: Money, Money, Money. Well, call it three problems, 'cause I said money three times. The cost of rebuilding the power grid, of buying all new locomotives, and stringing up electric wires to power the trains is massive. Where's it -- the money, the capital, the big bucks -- going to come from?
As fas as passenger trains RR management know that there mode is so unsafe that they wont let themselves or there kids ride it and prefer company private jets for there family outings.
Aside from the fact that a handful of railway executives -- we're talking COEs here -- command the oompf to rate the corporate jets, the IRS takes a dim view of using company assets for family excursions. Someone in the know would be bound to blow the whistle and raise a ruckus. Regarding the safety of their mode, I think it's a whole lot better than 30 years ago, when the general condition of raodway and rolling stock had deteriorated to the point that it was a national disgrace. So I don't think the safety of the mode is as bad as you would have us believe.
Railroads average median speed for freight is 15 miles per hour. The actual route miles are 20-30% more then the freeways that are built next to them. Despite what I could go on and on with a litney of complaints which everyone here knows and could add on the Class Ones actulay made a small but reasonable profit. My first choice for a transcon would be the Philly and Erie and then the PLE/ Erie to Akron OH rebuild the Erie west of there. My second choice would be the West Shore and then a new railroad in the medium strip of I-90. The National Grid Power Lines right of ways could also make a good right of way as well.
trackrat888 Its 2015 and its been 100 years since that last class 1 railroad was built in this country. Our current railroad system is at capasity and poorly run. The railroads that were built in the Great Lakes region where built on glacial fill. I-80/I86 is bumper to bumper with trucks despite passing thry no major population centers. But Conrail and NS down graded the Buffalo Line and even cut it in half at Philldelphia and Erie is cut at St. Marys PA. It can take as long as 12 hours just to cover the last 60 miles into Newark New Jersey. On the west end in Chicago trains have to be unloaded and reloaded because that is actualy faster then having a train attempt to pass through the city. St Louis is prone now to civil unrest and LA is prone to labor unrest. Railroads wont take short haul freight under 400 miles and therefore is useless for alleviated congestion in the Northeast. They wont work with Utlities to have power lines and railroads share right of way and power. As fas as passenger trains RR management know that there mode is so unsafe that they wont let themselves or there kids ride it and prefer company private jets for there family outings. Railroads average median speed for freight is 15 miles per hour. The actual route miles are 20-30% more then the freeways that are built next to them. Despite what I could go on and on with a litney of complaints which everyone here knows and could add on the Class Ones actulay made a small but reasonable profit. My first choice for a transcon would be the Philly and Erie and then the PLE/ Erie to Akron OH rebuild the Erie west of there. My second choice would be the West Shore and then a new railroad in the medium strip of I-90. The National Grid Power Lines right of ways could also make a good right of way as well.
Its 2015 and its been 100 years since that last class 1 railroad was built in this country. Our current railroad system is at capasity and poorly run. The railroads that were built in the Great Lakes region where built on glacial fill. I-80/I86 is bumper to bumper with trucks despite passing thry no major population centers. But Conrail and NS down graded the Buffalo Line and even cut it in half at Philldelphia and Erie is cut at St. Marys PA. It can take as long as 12 hours just to cover the last 60 miles into Newark New Jersey. On the west end in Chicago trains have to be unloaded and reloaded because that is actualy faster then having a train attempt to pass through the city. St Louis is prone now to civil unrest and LA is prone to labor unrest. Railroads wont take short haul freight under 400 miles and therefore is useless for alleviated congestion in the Northeast. They wont work with Utlities to have power lines and railroads share right of way and power. As fas as passenger trains RR management know that there mode is so unsafe that they wont let themselves or there kids ride it and prefer company private jets for there family outings. Railroads average median speed for freight is 15 miles per hour. The actual route miles are 20-30% more then the freeways that are built next to them. Despite what I could go on and on with a litney of complaints which everyone here knows and could add on the Class Ones actulay made a small but reasonable profit. My first choice for a transcon would be the Philly and Erie and then the PLE/ Erie to Akron OH rebuild the Erie west of there. My second choice would be the West Shore and then a new railroad in the medium strip of I-90. The National Grid Power Lines right of ways could also make a good right of way as well.
(It ain't sudden, Schlimm.)
Tom
Deggesty Murphy Siding diningcar What a d --- a-- thread. Where do these trolls come from???? Cleveland. Mares eat oats and does eat oats and little lambs eat ivy. A kid'll eat ivy too. Wouldn't you? Its 2015 and its been 100 years since that last class 1 railroad was built in this country. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it still make noise? Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth to this country that we are the champions my frined. And we'll keep on fighting 'till the end. Who let the dogs out? Who? Who? Come and listen to my story 'bout a man named Jed. Poor mountaineer barely kept his family fed. The one day, he was shootin' at some food on a three hour tour, with Giligan, the Skipper too, the milionaire, and his wife. If you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it. Plop plop fizz fizz, oh what a relief it is. You too can have ring around the collar. Only her hairdresser knows for sure. Where's the beef? I suppose I could collect my books and head on back to school, or steal my Daddy's que, and make one small step for man, one giant step for mankind. And she's buying the stairway to heaven, cause he ain't hevay, he's my brother. But don't you step on my blue suede shoes. And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon, little boy blue and the man in the moon. That big 8-wheeler rolling down the track means you're sweet lovin' daddy ain't a comin' back and I'm movin' on. Any questions? Murphy Siding diningcar What a d --- a-- thread. Where do these trolls come from???? Cleveland. Mares eat oats and does eat oats and little lambs eat ivy. A kid'll eat ivy too. Wouldn't you? Its 2015 and its been 100 years since that last class 1 railroad was built in this country. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it still make noise? Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth to this country that we are the champions my frined. And we'll keep on fighting 'till the end. Who let the dogs out? Who? Who? Come and listen to my story 'bout a man named Jed. Poor mountaineer barely kept his family fed. The one day, he was shootin' at some food on a three hour tour, with Giligan, the Skipper too, the milionaire, and his wife. If you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it. Plop plop fizz fizz, oh what a relief it is. You too can have ring around the collar. Only her hairdresser knows for sure. Where's the beef? I suppose I could collect my books and head on back to school, or steal my Daddy's que, and make one small step for man, one giant step for mankind. And she's buying the stairway to heaven, cause he ain't hevay, he's my brother. But don't you step on my blue suede shoes. And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon, little boy blue and the man in the moon. That big 8-wheeler rolling down the track means you're sweet lovin' daddy ain't a comin' back and I'm movin' on. Any questions? Norris, did you really read the first post to this thread? I took one look at it and told it to chase itself. I am sure your response made more sense; it brought pleasant memories to me--just as my eating lunch last Wednesday with people I knew from before I was in kindergarten and others whom I knew on through high school did (two of the then girls lived next door to me, and a third one and I went to church together).
Murphy Siding diningcar What a d --- a-- thread. Where do these trolls come from???? Cleveland. Mares eat oats and does eat oats and little lambs eat ivy. A kid'll eat ivy too. Wouldn't you? Its 2015 and its been 100 years since that last class 1 railroad was built in this country. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it still make noise? Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth to this country that we are the champions my frined. And we'll keep on fighting 'till the end. Who let the dogs out? Who? Who? Come and listen to my story 'bout a man named Jed. Poor mountaineer barely kept his family fed. The one day, he was shootin' at some food on a three hour tour, with Giligan, the Skipper too, the milionaire, and his wife. If you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it. Plop plop fizz fizz, oh what a relief it is. You too can have ring around the collar. Only her hairdresser knows for sure. Where's the beef? I suppose I could collect my books and head on back to school, or steal my Daddy's que, and make one small step for man, one giant step for mankind. And she's buying the stairway to heaven, cause he ain't hevay, he's my brother. But don't you step on my blue suede shoes. And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon, little boy blue and the man in the moon. That big 8-wheeler rolling down the track means you're sweet lovin' daddy ain't a comin' back and I'm movin' on. Any questions?
diningcar What a d --- a-- thread. Where do these trolls come from????
What a d --- a-- thread. Where do these trolls come from????
Cleveland. Mares eat oats and does eat oats and little lambs eat ivy. A kid'll eat ivy too. Wouldn't you? Its 2015 and its been 100 years since that last class 1 railroad was built in this country. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it still make noise? Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth to this country that we are the champions my frined. And we'll keep on fighting 'till the end. Who let the dogs out? Who? Who? Come and listen to my story 'bout a man named Jed. Poor mountaineer barely kept his family fed. The one day, he was shootin' at some food on a three hour tour, with Giligan, the Skipper too, the milionaire, and his wife. If you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it. Plop plop fizz fizz, oh what a relief it is. You too can have ring around the collar. Only her hairdresser knows for sure. Where's the beef? I suppose I could collect my books and head on back to school, or steal my Daddy's que, and make one small step for man, one giant step for mankind. And she's buying the stairway to heaven, cause he ain't hevay, he's my brother. But don't you step on my blue suede shoes. And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon, little boy blue and the man in the moon. That big 8-wheeler rolling down the track means you're sweet lovin' daddy ain't a comin' back and I'm movin' on. Any questions?
Norris, did you really read the first post to this thread? I took one look at it and told it to chase itself. I am sure your response made more sense; it brought pleasant memories to me--just as my eating lunch last Wednesday with people I knew from before I was in kindergarten and others whom I knew on through high school did (two of the then girls lived next door to me, and a third one and I went to church together).
Deggesty Norm48327 Ohio River Troll strikes again. Would that he would strike out. Considering his usage of the English language, he probably would not understand the above. Can we ask the umpire to throw him out?
Norm48327 Ohio River Troll strikes again.
Ohio River Troll strikes again.
Would that he would strike out.
Considering his usage of the English language, he probably would not understand the above. Can we ask the umpire to throw him out?
trackrat, aka ohiorivertroll/polishfalcon, et al. has been posting for weeks. The moderators apparently decided to give him a pass and many members have been responding. Why the sudden outrage now?
Norm
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