Up suing Lionel

[jockellis]

Does anyone know the latest in Usually Parked's trademark infringement suit against Lionel and Athearn?
Jock Ellis

[DPD1]

Last I heard, I think Athearn/Horizon settled in some way. In other words, they probably paid UP. Don't know about Lionel.

Dave
Los Angeles, CA
-Rail Radio Online-Home of the "TrainTenna" RR Monitoring Antenna-
http://eje.railfan.net/railradioonline

[88gta350]

Atheran and UP came to a liscensing agreement and UP dropped the suit. I haven't heard anyhting about Lionel.

[Anonymous]

Again,I thought that this all over with.

[daveklepper]

If Athern agreed, probably Lionel either agreed or decided not to market UP-based models. They don't have to!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Again,I thought that this all over with.

Nope, it will never end as long as UP has it's army of laywers out of their rat holes.

[Big_Boy_4005]

As the others have said, Athearn settled a while ago.

As far as I know, Lionel is still on the hook. Of course Lionel is facing a possible bankruptcy after the MTH verdict of $40.7 million. UP will just have to take a number. If Lionel does reorganize which is very possible, don't expect to hear about this one anytime soon.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SteamerFan

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Again,I thought that this all over with.

Nope, it will never end as long as UP has it's army of laywers out of their rat holes.

[(-D].

[Paul Milenkovic]

OK, dumb question. The Union Pacific railroad has to protect their trademark, but they have the option of charging only a nominal amount to model builders on account that it is a form of promotion. Are the asking for only a nominal fee? Are they asking for a substantial "cut" of the model business? Or is the fee very large because they want to discourage modelers on the basis that models don't serve the interest of their trade mark or corporate image?

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul Milenkovic

OK, dumb question. The Union Pacific railroad has to protect their trademark, but they have the option of charging only a nominal amount to model builders on account that it is a form of promotion. Are the asking for only a nominal fee? Are they asking for a substantial "cut" of the model business? Or is the fee very large because they want to discourage modelers on the basis that models don't serve the interest of their trade mark or corporate image?

I think the answer to your question is that, it is all relative. When you compare the fees to UP's annual earnings, they are chump change. When you look at them from the model manufacturer's point of view, they are noticable to the point that the manufacturers feel compelled to pass them on to consumers, rather than absorb them. This is when model railroaders get cranky!!!

My gripe has two parts. Why the hell did UP wait so long to do this? And, why should they be entitled to charge on behalf of the fallen flags such as, SP, WP, C&NW, MOPAC, etc?

It's too bad Athearn rolled over. Obviously they felt that the legal fees required to prove their point, were going to be greater than the fees they were trying to avoid. I thought they had some good legal points, and could have prevailed, telling UP where to stick it. Now we will never know.[B)][V][;)]

[railman]

I could almost understand their argument with the current UP...you could make the "plausible" case that UP is getting infringed upon, the good name diluted by unlicenced models etc...but now, railroads that have been eaten up for years, as noted by big boy 4005, all of a sudden need protection. Come on.

I've said it before and say it again; common sense!!!!

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005


My gripe has two parts. Why the hell did UP wait so long to do this? And, why should they be entitled to charge on behalf of the fallen flags such as, SP, WP, C&NW, MOPAC, etc?

Are you talking about ethically or legally? I know that UP has painted at one center-flow hopper each of SSW and DRGW with all of the respective companies' trademarkable logos. The DRGW car is DRGW 15564 (of course it is gray and not orange), keep an eye out for it. I do not remember the number of the SSW car.

I do wonder why UP would care about making sure that the logos of the railroads they have absorbed are used correctly.

[Anonymous]

What exactly did Union Pacific file a lawsuit over? What I'm getting at here is a specific problem, or problems. I did not catch this news. I only have about 10-20 minutes per day to check on here any more ... so a short summary would be appreciated.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005


My gripe has two parts. Why the hell did UP wait so long to do this? And, why should they be entitled to charge on behalf of the fallen flags such as, SP, WP, C&NW, MOPAC, etc?

Are you talking about ethically or legally? I know that UP has painted at one center-flow hopper each of SSW and DRGW with all of the respective companies' trademarkable logos. The DRGW car is DRGW 15564 (of course it is gray and not orange), keep an eye out for it. I do not remember the number of the SSW car.

I do wonder why UP would care about making sure that the logos of the railroads they have absorbed are used correctly.

Well Eric, the reason that they have those cars is, they are the only way they can claim that those railroads still exist. Pretty thin if you ask me, a token gesture to make their case look good.

The model manufacturers have been using the names of all the railroads since the beginning of model trains, over 100 years. All of a sudden they feel the need to charge.

Yes they HAVE the right to charge, but ARE THEY RIGHT to charge?????

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005


My gripe has two parts. Why the hell did UP wait so long to do this? And, why should they be entitled to charge on behalf of the fallen flags such as, SP, WP, C&NW, MOPAC, etc?

Are you talking about ethically or legally? I know that UP has painted at one center-flow hopper each of SSW and DRGW with all of the respective companies' trademarkable logos. The DRGW car is DRGW 15564 (of course it is gray and not orange), keep an eye out for it. I do not remember the number of the SSW car.

I do wonder why UP would care about making sure that the logos of the railroads they have absorbed are used correctly.

Well Eric, the reason that they have those cars is, they are the only way they can claim that those railroads still exist. Pretty thin if you ask me, a token gesture to make their case look good.

The model manufacturers have been using the names of all the railroads since the beginning of model trains, over 100 years. All of a sudden they feel the need to charge.

Yes they HAVE the right to charge, but ARE THEY RIGHT to charge?????

I should have clarified. I am not an attorney, however, my guess would be that these cars do give UP the legal right to protect these fallen flag logos. I did not comment on the ethics. Being an SP fan, I find this situation aggrevating.

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chessking

What exactly did Union Pacific file a lawsuit over? What I'm getting at here is a specific problem, or problems. I did not catch this news. I only have about 10-20 minutes per day to check on here any more ... so a short summary would be appreciated.

UP is suing for trademark infringement by Athearn and Lionel. Not only of UP but also of companies UP bought out.

[Anonymous]

It sounds like an all out lawsuit war of which UP has the edge ..... so far. But what did these toy companies do to stir this matter? Was it a logo issue? if not, then what?

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chessking

It sounds like an all out lawsuit war of which UP has the edge ..... so far. But what did these toy companies do to stir this matter? Was it a logo issue? if not, then what?

No, you aren't getting this. The lawsuit filed by UP was originally against Athearn and Lionel. UP has recently, within the last couple years, decided to enforce their trademark rights by getting all model manufacturers to sign licensing agreements. The model manufacturers have done nothing different from what they have been doing for years. They did not provoke this, UP came up with this on it's own.

Lionel and Athearn were the two largest that were unsigned, at the time the action was filed, so they were named. UP figured if they could get those two to sign, the rest of the smaller ones would fall into line. Many smaller companies already had.

Within about six weeks of UP's filing, Athearn settled and signed. That leaves only Lionel as a defendant. Lionel has bigger problems than UP's trademark to worry about, given the $40.7 million judgement in favor of MTH pending.

This thing is over for now. We will all have to wait to see what is left of Lionel, before UP can exact it's pound of flesh..

[Anonymous]

This whole thing sucks. I remember when railroads would PAY a model company to feature thier road. At the least, RRs would offer correct artwork and color formulas. This was all chalked up to promotions and good will building. This recent lawyerly behaviour hurts everyone.
There used to be saying....."First, we kill all the lawyers"

[feltonhill]

A recent or the most recent issue of Mainline Modeler has an extensive editorial about this situation. I've been trying to buy a copy at area hobby shops, but it's completely sold out. May have to resort to buying a back issue. Read the article last month in a borrowed copy and it seems to be a comprehensive opinion and a "call to arms."

[Junctionfan]

Killing lawyers.........that's a good step in order to achieve world peace. That should be a part of the war on terrorism. After Al Quaida is destroyed, on to the lawyers....

[Anonymous]

Next thing you know the UP will start filing lawsuit's on RAILFAN's for taken Pictures of their Stupid Trains...............What's up with that.

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

No, you aren't getting this. The lawsuit filed by UP was originally against Athearn and Lionel. UP has recently, within the last couple years, decided to enforce their trademark rights by getting all model manufacturers to sign licensing agreements...

I am not a lawyer but has there been a change in international trademark law that is driving UP and CSXT to protect their trademarks? Is there a concern that they may wake up some morning and discover someone near Shanghi controls their trademarks?

The best part of this tale was when it became a feature article on Christmas Eve in the Omaha World Herald. The basic theme was that the Grinch was on the prowl somewhere near 14th and Dodge.

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Killing lawyers.........that's a good step in order to achieve world peace. That should be a part of the war on terrorism. After Al Quaida is destroyed, on to the lawyers....

The legal system does need to be reformed, but I can't believe you wrote that.

[Junctionfan]

Is was mostly a joke but I am rather discusted with divorce lawyers in California in particular.

I think they do more harm than good and prevent friendly negotiation between the two parties where it is possible.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Next thing you know the UP will start filing lawsuit's on RAILFAN's for taken Pictures of their Stupid Trains...............What's up with that.

I'm sure they could if they wanted to.

[Anonymous]

Two points to be made here.

Point 1:

UP is offering 2 options on licensing.

Option 1 : 3% royalty on the wholesale price. A kit whose wholesale price is
$10.00 would have to pay $.30. Typical retail price would increase
from $20.00 to $20.30.


OptIon 2 : Pay 1/2% of gross sales . Suggested if gross sales of UP
products exceeds 20% of gross sales.


Point 2: Lionel has came out with a trainset tie in with the movie "The
Polar Express." Do you think they are doing this without paying a
royalty? Yeah right!

Was in a hobby shop today and looked at what Lionel is charging. Don't think they will go broke based on the licensing fee. If you can't afford Lionel equipment prices, then you don't have to worry about the licensing fee.

Don't pity poor Lionel.

[espeefoamer]

I recently saw a UP boxcar with an Overland Route logo.They are obviously going to claim usage of every logo they have used since the founding of the railroad[:(!].

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

No, you aren't getting this. The lawsuit filed by UP was originally against Athearn and Lionel. UP has recently, within the last couple years, decided to enforce their trademark rights by getting all model manufacturers to sign licensing agreements...

I am not a lawyer but has there been a change in international trademark law that is driving UP and CSXT to protect their trademarks? Is there a concern that they may wake up some morning and discover someone near Shanghi controls their trademarks?

The best part of this tale was when it became a feature article on Christmas Eve in the Omaha World Herald. The basic theme was that the Grinch was on the prowl somewhere near 14th and Dodge.

I have heard that too, and that may be part of what is suddenly motivating UP to do this. My understanding of that part of the law, and I am NOT a lawyer (thank God), is that it really has nothing to do with this, since foreign companies are not trying to pass themselves off as UP. In my opinion, UP is doing this because they feel they can. Guess what, nobody has tried to stop them, so appearently, they can!!!

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by arnstg

Two points to be made here.

Point 1:

UP is offering 2 options on licensing.

Option 1 : 3% royalty on the wholesale price. A kit whose wholesale price is
$10.00 would have to pay $.30. Typical retail price would increase
from $20.00 to $20.30.


OptIon 2 : Pay 1/2% of gross sales . Suggested if gross sales of UP
products exceeds 20% of gross sales.


Point 2: Lionel has came out with a trainset tie in with the movie "The
Polar Express." Do you think they are doing this without paying a
royalty? Yeah right!

Was in a hobby shop today and looked at what Lionel is charging. Don't think they will go broke based on the licensing fee. If you can't afford Lionel equipment prices, then you don't have to worry about the licensing fee.

Don't pity poor Lionel.

No, Lionel will be going broke over something completely different, MTH.

I have always wondered where UP's "tax" gets applied. I seriously doubt that it starts at the retail level. It starts at the manufacturer, and is marked up at every level of the distribution process.[:0]