Wizlish samfp1943 Just remember, Nuclear Target Practice is like Horseshoes; You only have to get close for it to count. Crying "...Yeah, but remember this is counterforce, not city-busting. (Assuming this is strategic capability, which United States ICBM facilities would almost certainly be.) I have been told you need great accuracy combined with ground penetration ... and very precise time-on-target to avoid fratricide problems. So 'close' involves much more than the nominal weapon 'yield' would seem to imply..."
samfp1943 Just remember, Nuclear Target Practice is like Horseshoes; You only have to get close for it to count. Crying
"...Yeah, but remember this is counterforce, not city-busting. (Assuming this is strategic capability, which United States ICBM facilities would almost certainly be.) I have been told you need great accuracy combined with ground penetration ... and very precise time-on-target to avoid fratricide problems.
So 'close' involves much more than the nominal weapon 'yield' would seem to imply..."
A saying I always appreciated follows: "... There is one tactical principal which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time..." — General George S. Patton Jr.
and attributed to Gen. N.B. Forrest [paraphrased] "..."Git thar fustest with the most mostest." ]
Lessons unappreciated in the Political environment of Government thses days.
Some further reading:
http://rt.com/news/217795-russia-nuclear-missile-trains/
http://itar-tass.com/en/russia/769357
http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/576299/20141217/russia-nuclear-warheads-missile-train.htm#.VKblYodzpzJ
http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/577271/20141229/russia-putin-secret-nuclear-weapons-train-missiles.htm#.VKblcodzpzJ
jrbernier I think I would let the Russians spend themselves into bankruptcy again... Jim
I think I would let the Russians spend themselves into bankruptcy again...
Jim
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Yeah, but remember this is counterforce, not city-busting. (Assuming this is strategic capability, which United States ICBM facilities would almost certainly be.) I have been told you need great accuracy combined with ground penetration ... and very precise time-on-target to avoid fratricide problems.
So 'close' involves much more than the nominal weapon 'yield' would seem to imply.
samfp1943Just remember, Nuclear Traget Practice is like Horseshoes; You only have to get close for it to count.
Trust me - they can be pretty accurate... I've been on the receiving end of tests (minus the big explosion, of course).
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
JoeBlowThe October 1988 issue of Trains had an excellent 5 page article by Michael R. Boldrick on this project. The article mentions that the government considered a rail basing plan for the Minuteman in the 1960s but cancelled it because they felt the Soviet missiles were not accurate enough.
Just remember, Nuclear Traget Practice is like Horseshoes; You only have to get close for it to count.
For the next several years, Bomb Shelters may be a reasonable investment?
Victrola1 Assume half of America's rail freight is stalled in Chicago. By trageting Chicago an enemy knocks half the shells out of the game.
Assume half of America's rail freight is stalled in Chicago. By trageting Chicago an enemy knocks half the shells out of the game.
Which is why the ICBM's will stay in their silos...
I very much doubt we will see a 21st century version of "Missile envy" involving Garrison trains...
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
If the Russians are considering playing the shell game with rockets on train cars, does that mean they have excess capacity on their rail system?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
The cold war was a paranoid delusion with each country convince that the other one was preparing to invade. The USA "won" the cold war only because the USSR went bankrupt first. The fact is that neither country was preparing to invade the other. Each was preparing to defend itself when the other one invaded THEM.
The true end game of that foolishness is that the lethal technology that both sides developed has now become available to mentally unstable primitives. The military industrial complex of both sides has sold some very sophisticated lethal weapons to unstable countries that could not have produced them on their own.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
The item from Popular Mechanics reminds me of a story I read several years ago, which involved a plot on the part of the Hanoverians to regain the English throne which they had lost to the Stuarts--how the throne went back to the Stuarts was not explained; perhaps Bonnie Prince Charlie (the Young Pretender, who then no longer had to pretend to the throne) had won at Cullode--and they had a gun in New Brunswick (I think it was there) which was aimed at the Royal Palace in London. No railway is mentioned, perhaps because there was no railway there at the time. However, their plot failed.
Johnny
I see "Rocket Train" and think back to the old Rock Island Rockets (Pre WWII)
And I'm not even That old.
http://streamlinermemories.info/?p=292
Before rail launched rockets there was rail mounted artillery.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/weapons/1280861
Remember that at the same time as Rail Garrison was unfolding, the USAF was also developing the Hard Mobile Launcher (HML or hummel) system as well. The prototype tractor and trailer were at the USAF Museum at Wright-Pat in the mid-nineties (curiously with flat tires on all wheels when I saw it). Looking at Google Earth history images, it appears to have been moved about a year ago. When visible, it was parked near the rail car on the north side of the museum.
Looking back on my brief involvement with that program, I recall images of Chevy Chase and Dan Akroyd in cold weather gear running through my head. It was in some sense a grim time and I do not relish folks having to go through that again. The logistics of Armageddon are more than a little unsettling.
There were more than 2 cars constructed for the project. 2 were launch cars, one survives as noted. But as of a couple of years ago (and looks to be currently from Google Earth shots) several of the support cars still live in Puebo. One of the funniest things was the air force wanting to know if the track could survive the millisecond million pound launch load. One wag from the study group asked why? You just started world war III, you don't clear up for the Super Chief, you crawl into a ditch an kiss your ass goodbye, but the missle command guys had other ideas. Ended up doing 3 tests piling 1.5 million #s of concrete on the tracks without any short term failures. It took 2 days and how that related to milliseconds was beyond me, but $ for the testers. Lots of interesting stories but for another time.
jrbernier Sam, Just because some 'news source' indicates that the Russians are looking into this means little. The US 'Rail Garrison' project was a test only, and the ability of moving the fleet out fast was suspect. I think I would let the Russians spend themselves into bankruptcy again... Jim
Sam,
Just because some 'news source' indicates that the Russians are looking into this means little. The US 'Rail Garrison' project was a test only, and the ability of moving the fleet out fast was suspect.
Jim(jrbernier):
You are exactly correct about the 'Peacekeeper Garrison Project' it was strictly a reactionary approach to the old Soviet Army's response to the American siloed missile defense response, during the height of the Cold War. Admittedly, it was a sort of pie-in-the- sky approach to add a layer to our strategic missile defenses ( submarine launched missels, and our ICBM's and Minuteman in silos scattered about the Country.) As I said previously, the only real artifact that seems to be left of that Program is the solitary' Boxcar'/mobile missile launcher car, preserved at the Air Force Museum at Dayton,O. The plan was for a number of those missile equipped trains to be stationed at Military Bases around the Nation. It was, for the time a pretty interesting concept, during those time of high national Cold War paranoia.
FTL (' Wiki' Peacekeeper Rail Garrison link):"...Each train was planned to consist of two locomotives (appeared to be EMD GP40-2 in unclassified diagrams [4]), two cars for housing security forces (using a modified box car), two launchers each holding a single missile (using a modified box car), a launch control car (using a modified Westinghouse box car), a fuel car, and a maintenance car (using a modified box car).[3] Each launching car would carry one missile in a tube that, upon the receipt of an authenticated firing command, would elevate to fire the missile from the bed of the car. The launch cars were 87 feet (26.52 m) long, and when loaded with a missile weighed over 550,000 pounds (250,000 kg) or 275 short tons (246 long tons; 249 t).[3] A crew of 42 people—including the train commander, four launch control officers, four railroad engineers, one medic, six maintenance personnel, and 26 security police—could live in the launch control and security cars for up to one month.[5]..."
Further FTL:"... two ex-CSX locomotives, an EMD GP40-2 and an EMD GP38-2, were sent to Precision National in Mount Vernon, IL for modification to GP40-2DE (Dynamic braking, Extended range) with bulletproof glass in the cab windows. The trains were expected to be in service within about 2 years. Strategic Air Command wanted the first trains stationed at F. E. Warren Air Force Base near the Union Pacific mainline at Cheyenne, WY. The expected in-service date was December 1992. Rail Garrisons would resemble small freight yards with four spurs leading to slant sided steel and earthen hardened shelters to house the trains.
Two hi-cube boxcars were constructed by St Louis Refrigerator Car Company. They were modified at Westinghouse receiving bogie trucks, distributing their 550,000 pounds (250,000 kg) of weight over 8 axles. Low-slung beams were added to the underside to level the car against the track during launch. 80-foot (24.38 m) roof panels were designed to fall off when the missile was erected. The Air Force was seeking US$2.16 billion in fiscal year 1991 to purchase the first seven MX trains..."
The plan was approved by President Regan and in fiscal 1991 the Air Frce sought some $2.16 Billion to build the first 7 trains ( of the fifty authorized)
If someone is interested, they can "Google" Soviet Rail Mounted Missiles. There are a number of sites listed, an album of photos of those types of missiles, and equipment.
One site is @ http://rt.com/politics/russia-missiles-defense-transport-military-941/
"Rail Wars: Russia Ponders New Railroad-based Missile Systems" dated: Dec. 2013 [snipped] "...Railway-based missile systems are designed for use along special military patrol routes, as well as railway lines used by the public.
Formerly, three missile divisions – near Kostroma, Krasnoyarsk and Perm – were deployed. Employing 12 trains, the system transported 36 missiles, each with 10 nuclear warheads..." [snipped]
(note) The last russian missile train was de-activated in 2005, and is apparently on display in a Russian Railroad Museum ( I think, in Moscow. (?)
My whole reason for posting this was based on Jim Wrinn's curerent article in TRAINS; about the need to consider additional track construction as the traffic on our railroad net increases...
One can imagine the potential chaos to that system, IF a number of these missile trains were introduced into the "Normal' mix of American Rail traffic. It would not be too bad, as they were 'in-garrison' at a military installation; but it would seem rational to consider, that those trains would, at some time 'HAVE' to be out, and running around the country. If for no other reason, than training, and maybe territorial familiarization for the crews?
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
From a story in the Moscow Times:
linked @ http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-looks-to-revive-nuclear-missile-trains-to-counter-u-s-attack-capability/511979.html
"Russia Looks to Revive Nuclear Missile Trains to Counter U.S. Attack Capability"
In December last year, Lieutenant General Sergei Karakayev of the Strategic Rocket Forces said that the U.S. Prompt Global Strike program was forcing Russia to begin conducting studies on putting the concept back into practice..."[snipped]
I have no idea to the depth of the truth in this item, but both the US Air Force and the Russian Army fielded these types of railroad mounted missiles. I do know that the USAF had authorized the construction of some 25( or so train sets) Some information is available on this Chicago Tribune story from 1989 @ http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1989-07-17/news/8902170958_1_icbm-peacekeeper-rail-garrison-missiles
The Program was known as the LGM118( a MIRV'd ICBM) "The Peacekeeper Rail Garrison" The following linked sit has a pretty complete list of equipment to be used to buil and operate these Rail Garrisons; an interesting read, at any rate @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacekeeper_Rail_Garrison
( I know a Wiki site, and the usual disclaimers do apply)
Apparently, the only surviving car from this project is the large 'Box style' car at the USAF Museum in Dayton,OH. [Photo on last link provided]
All this, along with current events; seem to indicate that we have new generations that are headed into the latest version of a new, and budding "Cold War"? The first one lasted from approximately, the end of WWII (1945) until 1991; was a time of tension, and paranoya on both sides of the Iron Curtain.
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