Difference Between A Unit Train and Shuttle Train?

[PNWRMNM]

Paul,

I can see no way that your conclusion has any relationship to my statement. All of the time related costs, including free time, must be in the rate. Those costs are baseed on a standard or expected round trip time including "free time" to load and unload. The only point I was trying to make is that railroads do not charge customers by the hour, but by the carload, trip or ton. If shipper or consignee exceeds free time, then demurrage kicks in.

Yes tariff demurrage has been, and to my knowledge still is, by the day with the magic hour of 7:00 AM. That does not preclude demurrage by the hour where it makes sense, which would be in short hauls covered by contract.

Mac 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

PNWRMNM

[snipped - PDN] . . . I have never heard of shuttle service priced on hourly basis. Many costs are incurred on an hourly basis but are typically aggregted on a trip basis. Of course the carrier figures costs based on details of the trip, cycle time being one element. . . .

Mac

Then there's no incentive to move any quicker, or to improve any portion of the operation to obtain any time reduction of less than a day, or the 24 (or 48) hours that are allowed to load/ unload.  As one old-time railroader told John Kneiling him when he first attempted to improve cycle times: "Geez, Kneiling, you're going to schedule this train right down to the day, aren't you ?"

As he loved to point out, "Bankers don't have any 'free time'." for the capital costs of the equipment, and the money that's tied up in the value of the commodity while in transit.  Also to the point, if there are employees on duty, they don't work for free, either - and the locos are burning fuel the entire time, too, even if at idle. 

John advocated running the costs and the tariffs by the hour or fraction (or even the minute), just like a taxicab - which is similar to a shuttle.  While "demurrage" may make reasonable people crazy, that's exactly its purpose - to motivate them into action to move the train ASAP ! 

Depending on the commodity, the out-of-pocket costs can be several hundred dollars an hour.  The "opportunity cost" of equipment that could be hauling another train and earning even more revenue can be several thousand dollars an hour.  Just because the system doesn't recognize, document, and act on those costs doesn't mean that they don't exist - it means that the system is blind to them.     

  You want to see the Chicago delays straightened out ?  Start charging each operation, yard, or interchange -whether in the same railroad, or another one - a giant demurrage rate for the full cost of for each and every minute for any train that's delayed there.  Wait until that comes out of someone's budget - or railroad C has to cut a multi-million dollar check each month to railroad B, N, or U (or vice-versa).  That will get questions asked and a lot of motivation to improve the operation.  Without it, the only incentive is just to minimize their own carrier's costs, at the expense of the others. 

[END  ]       

- Paul North. 

[samfp1943]

tree68

 

PNWRMNM

I would define a unit train as a full trainload of one product from one origin to one destination.

...

I suspect more generally a shuttle train is a unit train that runs back and forth between one single origin and one single destination.

 

 

These would be my understandings as well.  For a shuttle train, I would see the ultimate example as the Black Mesa and Lake Powell Railroad.  It may be an essentially captive operation, but it serves as a long distance conveyor - the purpose I envision for a "shuttle."

 

To Larry (tree68) and others on this Thread. The following linked site might be of interest and identifies American Electric Railroads ( shows current as of June 2013) @ http://ironcompass.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/electric-freight-railroads-in-the-us/

Here in SouthCentral Kansas, we see a large number of thes Unit Train and Shuttle Movements, They will utilize cars that are railroad owned, and so marked (ie: BNSF. some refer to them as 'brown grain worms'(?)

   Then, 'Rent-a-Train' moves ( shuttle or unit) those are identified by the lease car/ Owner- Alpha Codes ( ie: SHPX, or GATX) and the neumeric car number.  One thing that has seemed to stand out to me is the loaded trains have several units on the head, and a a single DPU; while' returning' trains seem to run with the single unit on the head end and a DPU of several units(?).       With no scanner radio, you sort of have to improvise, at times.

 

[ericsp]

It looks like the Rockland, ME operation is Dragon Cement.

Plant

Train

Terminal

[PNWRMNM]

Ed,

That is an interesting and very short move. In that case I would expect demurrage to kick in after normal loading/unloading time, in hours, and charge in hour or even quarter hour increments.

If I were writing the contract, I would probably give a bit of extra time in the contract to minimize demurrage bills, which seem to make otherwise reasonable customers crazy.

Mac

[MP173]

The reason I brought up the hourly rate, was in my trucking experience, on very short haul movements, it was very difficult to pinpoint the loading and unloading times.  Demurrage would take care of that for the rail industry.

There is a very interesting operation in Rockland, Maine (i mentioned this on Fred Frailey blog yesterday) in which a commodity is moved about 5 miles from a cement or aggregate plant (i forget which) to a transloading facility for a ocean freighter which then moves the product down to the Philadelphia area.  Now, that is short haul service.  Probably could be defined as "shuttle".  I never saw the train operate (was told by local Maine Eastern Railroad passenger personnel) that the train often makes multiple moves during the day.

Here is a case where the only business in the area is this "shuttle" of about 5 miles. Fascinating operation as this keeps the streets in good shape and proves that railroads can handle short haul moves.  BTW, the ROW does not look like short line or regional.  It is welded rail and well ballasted.

Ed

[PNWRMNM]

Ed B.

Your definitions are reversed from what I have seen. A shuttle train has a committment for some number of trips.

Mac

[dehusman]

A unit train is a train that travels on a single waybill.  All the cars are billed from one origin to one destination on a single multi-car waybill.

A shuttle can be whatever the railroad marketing department says it is.  Its different on every railroad.  On some roads a shuttle is just another variation of a unit train.  In most cases a shuttle is a unit train with some specific marketing restrictions (for example it has to be loaded in 24 hours and unloaded in 24 hours).

[edblysard]

A unit train is a set number of cars moving the same commodity, grain, coal and so forth, on a repetitive move for a set contractual number of moves…you “rent” the train, a specific number of cars and locomotives.

A grain train is a good example, you rent the train made up of normally 125 cars, and these cars move from your loading facility to specific points of discharge, then the empty returns to your loading facility and the process starts over, the cars remain together as a “unit”,(and any replacements needed as required from cars bad order) until your contractual obligations are met.

You are renting the 125 cars with no option to reduce the number of cars, in other words, X number of cars for X number of moves.

A shuttle train works somewhat the same, but you are only paying for the cars that move, if you have say, 50 cars this week, you only pay for 50 cars, 25 next week, you only pay for 25….and that number, as Balt pointed out, may vary on the return trip…you may pay for outbound 50 car train, but the return may have 60 cars, you pay for that 10 additional car movement also.

Shuttle trains don’t normally run under a performance contract, if you have nothing to ship this week, you don’t pay…unit trains have a contractual requirement, you pay for the train regardless.

Most unit trains have the cars provided by the carrier, you lease the whole thing, including the power, shuttle trains may have carrier provided cars you lease, or may use privately owned cars, in which cars you only pay for the movement of the cars, not the cars themselves.

The plus side to the unit train is there is a deep discount for leasing the set, the drawback is both ends of the run must be able to accommodate the large number of cars, and unit trains often have a performance bonus tied to turnaround times, normally 24 or 48 hours depending on the contract.

[tree68]

PNWRMNM

I would define a unit train as a full trainload of one product from one origin to one destination.

...

I suspect more generally a shuttle train is a unit train that runs back and forth between one single origin and one single destination.

These would be my understandings as well.  For a shuttle train, I would see the ultimate example as the Black Mesa and Lake Powell Railroad.  It may be an essentially captive operation, but it serves as a long distance conveyor - the purpose I envision for a "shuttle."

[PNWRMNM]

Ed,

As to revenue floor, if you have a minimum number of cars at a given rate you have the revenue floor per trip. Shuttle contracts will include a minimum number of trips per time period. If customer tenders less than the minimum he pays the minimum.

I have never heard of shuttle service priced on hourly basis. Many costs are incurred on an hourly basis but are typically aggregted on a trip basis. Of course the carrier figures costs based on details of the trip, cycle time being one element.

Railroads deal with loading and unloading delays through demurrage charges assessed based on either a tariff or contract provisions depending on what the rate authority is. 

Mac

[PNWRMNM]

Joe,

Like so many things on the railroad "it depends", here on traffic and appliction of terms.

I would define a unit train as a full trainload of one product from one origin to one destination.

In BNSF grain traffic a shuttle train is a committment to some number of unit tains over some time frame. I suspect more generally a shuttle train is a unit train that runs back and forth between one single origin and one single destination.

True and real definitions will be found in the appropriate rules tariff of each carrier.

Mac

[BaltACD]

MP173

Balt:

My past career (25 years ago) was in traffic for an LTL carrier, so I am somewhat familiar with pricing for transportation.  During times of boredom I will take a look at rail carrier's tariffs.  I would assume that most unit train movements are based on certain minimum carloads or tonnage.  For example, unit coal trains are probably based on a minimum of perhaps 100 loads.  Quite a few grain trains seem to move with 65 cars, I have never quite figured that out.

Would shuttle trains be based on a minimum revenue floor?  In other words, if a carrier is running a train 100 miles with loads, then return the empties, I would want to negotiate some sort of minimum revenue either on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis.  

Do railroads ever price their shuttle services based on hourly rates?  It was a common pricing tool I used, particularly when the loading/unloading conditions were extremely variable.

 

Ed

 

Pricing is an area of railroading I have absolutely no experience in.

[MP173]

Balt:

My past career (25 years ago) was in traffic for an LTL carrier, so I am somewhat familiar with pricing for transportation.  During times of boredom I will take a look at rail carrier's tariffs.  I would assume that most unit train movements are based on certain minimum carloads or tonnage.  For example, unit coal trains are probably based on a minimum of perhaps 100 loads.  Quite a few grain trains seem to move with 65 cars, I have never quite figured that out.

Would shuttle trains be based on a minimum revenue floor?  In other words, if a carrier is running a train 100 miles with loads, then return the empties, I would want to negotiate some sort of minimum revenue either on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis.  

Do railroads ever price their shuttle services based on hourly rates?  It was a common pricing tool I used, particularly when the loading/unloading conditions were extremely variable.

 

Ed

[BaltACD]

The rules for Unit Trains, require the entire train to be loaded and unloaded as a complete unit, normally within 24 hours (specific times may be specified differently in the contract for the service)

In shuttle train service, while the train may be hauled as a unit between origin and destination, it may have a different car count in different directions.  We have a trash train in shuttle service, it starts from the location where the cars are emptied.  It may leave it's origin with 25 cars and go to the loading location with the 25 empties.  At the loading location it will leave the 25 empty cars and pick up the available loaded cars - it could be 22 cars, it might be 27 cars, it could even be 30 cars - depending upon the residential trash that has been delivered to the loading location.  The train will return to the unloading location with whatever cars the loading location has made available.  This shuttle train operate 5 days a week, with occasional extra trains operated on the weekends.

With nearly all repetitive moves being covered by transportation contracts between the parties involved, the specific language of the contract will govern the moves and the pricing.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Good question !  Mainly the distance it travels between origin and destination points, I'd say.  Shuttles are from a few miles up to maybe 200 to 300 miles, whereas unit trains are usually from 500 up to 3,000 miles; I suppose an in-between distance could be called either one.   

Otherwise, they're pretty similar:  fixed-consist, usually all 1 commodity, usually the same power as a run-through operation, from the same loading point and to the same destination each trip; independent of other trains and operations on the railroad(s) it travels over; does not get yarded or humped, etc.

- Paul North.

[JoeBlow]

What is the difference between a unit train and a shuttle train?