Briti***rain crash

[M636C]

Dave,

The Diesel Tilt Train does have a pilot. See the bottom left photo on the page on this link (my article but not my photo).

http://www.arhsnsw.com.au/rdigest.htm

Matt,

The British Rail Mk III coach used by the diesel High Speed Train is regarded as one of the best designs in Europe for strength, the older Mk I cars with conventional underframe trusses having shown up much worse. Seven deaths from 300+ passengers in a crash at about 100 mph, assumed as the speed AFTER brakes were applied is not a bad outcome, although we can aim for better. The design of these cars is thirty years old now (I rode the prototype train in 1975) and cars of this type form the Royal Train. If there was a safer design that was known in Britain, it would be used for the Royal Train.

A big weakness is the lack of a pilot on the power cars to deflect a vehicle on the tracks. This power car design was adopted in Australia (but not the Mk III coach, we used a local version of a Budd design meeting US criteria) and it ran for maybe a year without a pilot, then increasingly strong pilot designs were added. In an accident just North of Albury in NSW, five members of a local football team were killed at a crossing with lights and gates, but requiring a sharp turn both onto and off the crossing. But the train, running at the same speed, 100mph, and striking probably a larger automobile, did not derail. Local feeling after the multiple deaths was such that that crossing is being replaced by a huge and extravagant overpass

A strong pilot design would have deflected even a stopped motor vehicle with an occupant bent on suicide in the British accident. After an accident in Scotland where a cab car derailed after hitting a large bull, pilots were fitted to those vehicles, and passengers were banned from travelling in cab cars.

It was a cab car that hit a motor vehicle on the British East Coast main line in 2001, derailed and then hit an approaching coal train after being deflected into its path by a crossover. I don't know if it had a pilot!

Peter

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by admiles

Just to update everyone. I live in the Uk and am a driver (engineer) for one of the UK rail companies.

The death toll has now risen to 7, including two young children age 7 and 15........

What a horrible person! he should have jumped off a bridge!

[Sterling1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Kozzie

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Guys,

Here is a link to the BBC Website;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/04/rail_crash/html/3.stm

This shows a plan of the scene. If it is correct, the car remained on the track and the train ran over it. It is most likely that the train was derailed, but remained upright and in line until it hit the switch. Marks on the ties would indicate this to investigators.

Peter

Peter

Thanks for that link. No doubt the investigation will examine all the angles and clues.

Doesn't seem to be a lot of protection for the engineer. Similarly, I had a long conversation with one of the engineers of our tilt trains here in Queensland (they have a somewhat similar shape to the UK Class 43 - the train, not the engineer heh heh), and he said that the cab for the tilt train was designed as a crumple zone with a strengthened bulkhead separating the cab from the first class passenger seating. Not much comfort for the engineers! [:0]

Dave

A crumple zone, damn, excuse my language, for the lack of a better word, but where would the driver go if the front end were destroyed? Into a body bag and then a pine box casket? Don't they have a railroaders' union guarding against that or are some people like car suicide attempters and others so very cynical?

[Sterling1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by u6729csx

Does England have anywhere near the number of road crossings as the railroads in the US have????

Secondly, I don't think trains in the UK or the continent for that matter are constructed to have anywhere near the collision strength of US equipment.

I saw in a recent Trains magazine (October 2004) article on the VIA's Renissance cars were of monoque design, not great in North America. I prefer what we currently use in North America myself.

[Sterling1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lfish


A high speed Briti***rain from London to Plymouth hit a vehcile at a grade crossing. At least six people are dead, many injured, and all the cars left the tracks and apparently most went on their sides. The engineer was among the dead. No word on how a vehicle got on the tracks.

Ouch, not too good for the British rail systems, I just wonder how many have they had since British Rail was privatized.

[athelney]

For those who are interested there is an interim report by the HSE- who investigate railway safety concerns, on the derailment of the First Great Western HST at Ufton Nervet Berkshire. It confirms the thought that the front bogie of the unit derailed and struck a set of points on the goods loop, causing the major derailment.& 7 deaths. The site is www.HSE.gov.uk

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Guys,

Here is a link to the BBC Website;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/04/rail_crash/html/3.stm

This shows a plan of the scene. If it is correct, the car remained on the track and the train ran over it. It is most likely that the train was derailed, but remained upright and in line until it hit the switch. Marks on the ties would indicate this to investigators.

Peter

Peter

Thanks for that link. No doubt the investigation will examine all the angles and clues.

Doesn't seem to be a lot of protection for the engineer. Similarly, I had a long conversation with one of the engineers of our tilt trains here in Queensland (they have a somewhat similar shape to the UK Class 43 - the train, not the engineer heh heh), and he said that the cab for the tilt train was designed as a crumple zone with a strengthened bulkhead separating the cab from the first class passenger seating. Not much comfort for the engineers! [:0]

Dave

[M636C]

Guys,

Here is a link to the BBC Website;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/04/rail_crash/html/3.stm

This shows a plan of the scene. If it is correct, the car remained on the track and the train ran over it. It is most likely that the train was derailed, but remained upright and in line until it hit the switch. Marks on the ties would indicate this to investigators.

Peter

[M636C]

It is possible that the car damaged the leading power car resulting in the derailment occurring at the switch, which may have otherwise been on working order.

Remember that the Class 43 power cars in general don't have any sort of pilot nor even a front coupler to deflect the vehicle. The nose shape would tend to deflect the vehicle under the power car before it would be pushed to one side, so it could easily have damaged the leading truck.

Peter

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by locomutt

QUOTE: Originally posted by Kozzie

QUOTE: Originally posted by admiles

Just to update everyone. I live in the Uk and am a driver (engineer) for one of the UK rail companies.

The death toll has now risen to 7, including two young children age 7 and 15. It seems that it could well have been a suicide attempt as the car was stopped on the tracks when the barriers came down. An off-duty police officer shouted at the car driver to get out of the car, but he didn't do so. When the barriers came down the officer called the signalling center to try to stop any trains in the area, but was too late, like someone here said things happen very quickly at 100+ mph. I belive the line speed at the accident site was 110 mph, the trains themselves are capable of 125 mph.

From my point of view (as an engineer) trains here tend to push cars on crossings to one side when they hit, rarely derailing the train. This is the first crossing accident in 18 years where passengers onboard the train have been killed.

If the suicide theory turns out to be true, if of course we ever find out, I just wi***o God the car driver hadn't been so selfish, he could have killed hundreds (300+ on the train).

admiles, you make a very interesting point when you said that trains usually push cars aside when they hit, and not usually derailing.....last night here downunder on the TV news an interesting point was raised.

Apparently it's suspected that the Plymouth express did indeed pu***he car out of the way, and continued down the tracks, then derailed at a switch, which is what caused such a dramatic derailment. Has anyone else heard that theory mentioned?

Dave

Dave,
Do you all get any information any faster than we do?(U.S.)
I would like to keep in touch with this article.
At point in time I can not even come up with a theory.

Walt, I can't imagine we'd have a faster news service than what you have up over. It may be that the TV network I was watching down here has good access to the news services up over in the UK.

It wasn't a detailed report, but it certainly cast doubt on the condition of the switch farther down the track from the point of impact with the car. It sure makes more sense than one car causing a whole express train to derail so badly.

Survivors from the train talked about how badly the passenger cars jack-knifed.

I might be able to find out more later on this evening's 6:00pm News

[locomutt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Kozzie

QUOTE: Originally posted by admiles

Just to update everyone. I live in the Uk and am a driver (engineer) for one of the UK rail companies.

The death toll has now risen to 7, including two young children age 7 and 15. It seems that it could well have been a suicide attempt as the car was stopped on the tracks when the barriers came down. An off-duty police officer shouted at the car driver to get out of the car, but he didn't do so. When the barriers came down the officer called the signalling center to try to stop any trains in the area, but was too late, like someone here said things happen very quickly at 100+ mph. I belive the line speed at the accident site was 110 mph, the trains themselves are capable of 125 mph.

From my point of view (as an engineer) trains here tend to push cars on crossings to one side when they hit, rarely derailing the train. This is the first crossing accident in 18 years where passengers onboard the train have been killed.

If the suicide theory turns out to be true, if of course we ever find out, I just wi***o God the car driver hadn't been so selfish, he could have killed hundreds (300+ on the train).

admiles, you make a very interesting point when you said that trains usually push cars aside when they hit, and not usually derailing.....last night here downunder on the TV news an interesting point was raised.

Apparently it's suspected that the Plymouth express did indeed pu***he car out of the way, and continued down the tracks, then derailed at a switch, which is what caused such a dramatic derailment. Has anyone else heard that theory mentioned?

Dave

Dave,
Do you all get any information any faster than we do?(U.S.)
I would like to keep in touch with this article.
At point in time I can not even come up with a theory.

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by admiles

Just to update everyone. I live in the Uk and am a driver (engineer) for one of the UK rail companies.

The death toll has now risen to 7, including two young children age 7 and 15. It seems that it could well have been a suicide attempt as the car was stopped on the tracks when the barriers came down. An off-duty police officer shouted at the car driver to get out of the car, but he didn't do so. When the barriers came down the officer called the signalling center to try to stop any trains in the area, but was too late, like someone here said things happen very quickly at 100+ mph. I belive the line speed at the accident site was 110 mph, the trains themselves are capable of 125 mph.

From my point of view (as an engineer) trains here tend to push cars on crossings to one side when they hit, rarely derailing the train. This is the first crossing accident in 18 years where passengers onboard the train have been killed.

If the suicide theory turns out to be true, if of course we ever find out, I just wi***o God the car driver hadn't been so selfish, he could have killed hundreds (300+ on the train).

admiles, you make a very interesting point when you said that trains usually push cars aside when they hit, and not usually derailing.....last night here downunder on the TV news an interesting point was raised.

Apparently it's suspected that the Plymouth express did indeed pu***he car out of the way, and continued down the tracks, then derailed at a switch, which is what caused such a dramatic derailment. Has anyone else heard that theory mentioned?

Dave

[athelney]

QUOTE: Originally posted by admiles

Just to update everyone. I live in the Uk and am a driver (engineer) for one of the UK rail companies.

The death toll has now risen to 7, including two young children age 7 and 15. It seems that it could well have been a suicide attempt as the car was stopped on the tracks when the barriers came down. An off-duty police officer shouted at the car driver to get out of the car, but he didn't do so. When the barriers came down the officer called the signalling center to try to stop any trains in the area, but was too late, like someone here said things happen very quickly at 100+ mph. I belive the line speed at the accident site was 110 mph, the trains themselves are capable of 125 mph.

From my point of view (as an engineer) trains here tend to push cars on crossings to one side when they hit, rarely derailing the train. This is the first crossing accident in 18 years where passengers onboard the train have been killed.

If the suicide theory turns out to be true, if of course we ever find out, I just wi***o God the car driver hadn't been so selfish, he could have killed hundreds (300+ on the train).

admiles - thanks for your update , being ex brit am interested in the goings on over in the UK -- where was the accident scene -- I know it was on the Berks & Hants line - but exactly where - -near Aldermaston area?? - Am also wondering why the train derailed -were there any crossovers or sidings that would cause sideways movement like the crash at Heck a couple of years ago .
By the way welcome to the forum !

[Anonymous]

Just to update everyone. I live in the Uk and am a driver (engineer) for one of the UK rail companies.

The death toll has now risen to 7, including two young children age 7 and 15. It seems that it could well have been a suicide attempt as the car was stopped on the tracks when the barriers came down. An off-duty police officer shouted at the car driver to get out of the car, but he didn't do so. When the barriers came down the officer called the signalling center to try to stop any trains in the area, but was too late, like someone here said things happen very quickly at 100+ mph. I belive the line speed at the accident site was 110 mph, the trains themselves are capable of 125 mph.

From my point of view (as an engineer) trains here tend to push cars on crossings to one side when they hit, rarely derailing the train. This is the first crossing accident in 18 years where passengers onboard the train have been killed.

If the suicide theory turns out to be true, if of course we ever find out, I just wi***o God the car driver hadn't been so selfish, he could have killed hundreds (300+ on the train).

[vsmith]

Heard on the news last night, yes, it looks like it was a suicide on the car drivers part. Why didnt he just jump of a bridge if he wanted to off himself. No. He has to be cleaver about it and now 6 innocent people are dead. Idiot.

[88gta350]

I haven't read any of the news stories, but from what I am reading here, it sounds like a suicide attempt to me.

[M636C]

I saw a lot of the early coverage, including interviews. The police say the car stopped on the crossing and made no attempt to leave when the gates came down (from surveillance TV footage). The train driver was killed. There was a picture of a power car on its side with a smashed cab window, so the driver may have been struck by debris from the car.

One of the major complaints was that as the train rolled over, the lights (from HEP in one of the two power cars) went out, and there were no emergency lights to assist in finding the way out. The windows broke on the lower side when the train rolled over.

Peter

[Anonymous]

Says it was going at least 100 mph.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/04/rail_crash/html/2.stm

[UPTRAIN]

How fast was it going...all 6 cars of so derailed! Musta been doin' a hell of a good rate of speed when it hit to do that!

[Anonymous]

Here's some of the latest from BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3990545.stm

[athelney]

QUOTE: Originally posted by u6729csx

Does England have anywhere near the number of road crossings as the railroads in the US have????

Secondly, I don't think trains in the UK or the continent for that matter are constructed to have anywhere near the collision strength of US equipment.

According to the report I read there are about 8000 crossings in the UK -- some are full barrier some half & others just lights- At the place of the accident it was barrier controlled- the car went onto the tracks with the barrier up - then sat on the tracks - barrier came down then --- you know what happened after that - at 100mph things go bad real quick. .

[MP57313]

QUOTE: Originally posted by u6729csx

Does England have anywhere near the number of road crossings as the railroads in the US have????

I don't think they do (they are called level crossings over there). Rode a few trains over there eight years ago, and saw other rail lines from riding on bus tours. We saw very few crossings in any part of the country; mostly bridges/overpasses.

[Anonymous]

Does England have anywhere near the number of road crossings as the railroads in the US have????

Secondly, I don't think trains in the UK or the continent for that matter are constructed to have anywhere near the collision strength of US equipment.

[Anonymous]

A high speed Briti***rain from London to Plymouth hit a vehcile at a grade crossing. At least six people are dead, many injured, and all the cars left the tracks and apparently most went on their sides. The engineer was among the dead. No word on how a vehicle got on the tracks.