Trains.com

NS and CP Make Deal

3848 views
18 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    April 2011
  • 649 posts
Posted by LensCapOn on Friday, November 21, 2014 10:34 AM

beaulieu

 CP also would retain exclusive access to GE in Schenectady.  

Wonder what GE thinks of that?*

 

 

 

*It's not like GE is a big player or anything....

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: NW Wisconsin
  • 3,857 posts
Posted by beaulieu on Friday, November 21, 2014 10:27 AM

The STB filing for this sale states that CP will surrender all of its Trackage Rights south of Binghamton and east of Buffalo. NS will provide Haulage Rights service for CP to connect to the Shortline RRs that would otherwise lose their connection to CP. I find it interesting that CP would gain Trackage Rights as far as Binghamton. CP also would retain exclusive access to GE in Schenectady. CP and NS will interchange at Saratoga Yd. in Saratoga, NY. While runthrough trains will be swapped at Mohawk Yd. in Schenectady, NY.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, November 20, 2014 9:44 PM

Regarding NS competing with CSX, remember that there is more to New England than just Boston.  For an NS "Patriot Corridor" train with loads for Maine and New Hampshire, the loads are already on Pan Am east of Albany, whereas CSX has to interchange with Pan Am anyway.  So, yes, to Worcester, Boston, Providence, and Southern New England, CSX is faster, but to any point north of Boston, it is probably NS even right now. 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2007
  • 194 posts
Posted by nyc#25 on Wednesday, November 19, 2014 2:05 PM

NS bought 58% of CR and CSX bought 42%.

NS needs the former Erie via the Portage viaduct to

reach the former NKP at Buffalo which will take on

even more importance with the re-building of the

yard and Bellevue, Ohioi.

 

  • Member since
    September 2010
  • From: East Coast
  • 1,199 posts
Posted by D.Carleton on Wednesday, November 19, 2014 9:26 AM

Paul_D_North_Jr

Will this have any effect on NS' Southern Tier (of New York) line ? (ex-Erie, I think ?)  Specifically, avoid the need to rebuild the Portageville Trestle, even with government financial aid ?  Instead, just abandon or downgrade/ sever that route to avoid the cost, and run northeasterly from Harrisburg, PA instead ?

- Paul North.  

I am certain the 'abandon/downgrade/sever' era of railroading is now over. If this purchase works to increase business then NS will need the former Erie more than ever. Maybe more business for the Erie mainline west of Hornell?

That said, a couple of weeks ago I was dispatched to Chicago to ferry a high value load to the Northeast. After passing Erie, PA, I could not help but notice parked train after parked train on the parallel former NKP. We are now in the era of more track, not less.

Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak

  • Member since
    September 2010
  • From: East Coast
  • 1,199 posts
Posted by D.Carleton on Wednesday, November 19, 2014 7:48 AM

MidlandMike
NS bought about half of Conrail, about half of which were old NYC lines.  CSX still uses NYC reporting marks, yet NS has painted Conrail and NYC heritage units.
 

During the ConRail split NS and CSX set up paper corporations to facilitate spliting the property: PRR LLC and NYC LLC. They used letters that paid respect to the heritage of what they were buying but had no corporate ties to the original PRR or NYC which no longer exist. The heritage reporting marks were also split between NS and CSX. D&H is still an active corporate entity for the moment. The owners of that entity may not appreciate another large railroad painting and lettering something for a company they do not own.

Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, November 19, 2014 7:39 AM

Uncle_Bob
Also, the story said CP will still be able to reach Buffalo after the sale, which seems to imply they'll continue to run trains via the Southern Tier.  

I think that means they can get to customers on the US side at Buffalo via Niagara Fall, not the Tier.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    December 2011
  • 440 posts
Posted by Uncle_Bob on Wednesday, November 19, 2014 6:25 AM

I think the new Portageville bridge project is already well underway.  Also, the story said CP will still be able to reach Buffalo after the sale, which seems to imply they'll continue to run trains via the Southern Tier.  

The big question around here (Binghamton area) is, will NS move everything to the old Lackawanna yard in Conklin, or will they maintain some facilities in downtown Binghamton in the old Erie yard?

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Allentown, PA
  • 9,810 posts
Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Tuesday, November 18, 2014 8:56 PM

MP173
[snipped - PDN] . . . Stratetically it fits quite well for both.  NS has a challenge with it's Chicago - Boston intermodal and while this doesnt place them in Boston, the deal situates them in Albany, one less segment of line not under their control.  Will they purchase Pan American?  Probably not, but they will possibly continue to invest in the Boston line in order to upgrade it.  The majority of intermodal freight NS handles for Boston seems to be JBH and containers while CSX handles the UPS and timely freight.  There is no way NS can compete Chicago - Boston on time....just slow it down and add an extra day and handle volume.

Ed

Look at the NS System map: http://www.nscorp.com/content/nscorp/en/ship-with-norfolk-southern/system-overview.html 

Seems to me this improves the routing for traffic from anyplace in the Southeastern US (from the Panama Canal ?) to New England and Boston, as much as from Chicago.

Will this have any effect on NS' Southern Tier (of New York) line ? (ex-Erie, I think ?)  Specifically, avoid the need to rebuild the Portageville Trestle, even with government financial aid ?  Instead, just abandon or downgrade/ sever that route to avoid the cost, and run northeasterly from Harrisburg, PA instead ?

- Paul North.  

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
  • Member since
    September 2011
  • 6,449 posts
Posted by MidlandMike on Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:57 PM

D.Carleton

 

 
Lyon_Wonder

I hope NS will also be painting an ES44AC or SD70ACe as a D&H heritage unit too:)

 

 

I'm not so sure that's possible. Even after this transaction the Delaware & Hudson will still exist, on paper, as a Canadian Pacific subsidiary. It would be like painting your locomotive in Union Pacific colors and lettering and running it as your own. Uncle Pete may have a word or two to say about that.

 

 

NS bought about half of Conrail, about half of which were old NYC lines.  CSX still uses NYC reporting marks, yet NS has painted Conrail and NYC heritage units.

  • Member since
    April 2002
  • From: Northern Florida
  • 1,429 posts
Posted by SALfan on Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:32 PM

D.Carleton

 

 
Overmod
D.Carleton
It would be like painting your locomotive in Union Pacific colors and lettering and running it as your own.

Like Canadian Pacific did, in a sense, at one time?  ;-}

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures%5C35464%5CCP%206034.JPG

Colors and number lettering, anyway...

 

 

Or FEC for that matter: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=501743&nseq=12

 

 

FEC bought those locomotives from UP.  They had been repainted fairly recently, the paint was in good condition, so FEC slapped its name on them and called it good.

  • Member since
    September 2010
  • From: East Coast
  • 1,199 posts
Posted by D.Carleton on Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:27 PM

Overmod
D.Carleton
It would be like painting your locomotive in Union Pacific colors and lettering and running it as your own.

Like Canadian Pacific did, in a sense, at one time?  ;-}

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures%5C35464%5CCP%206034.JPG

Colors and number lettering, anyway...

Or FEC for that matter: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=501743&nseq=12

Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,669 posts
Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, November 18, 2014 5:52 PM

D.Carleton
It would be like painting your locomotive in Union Pacific colors and lettering and running it as your own.

Like Canadian Pacific did, in a sense, at one time?  ;-}

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures%5C35464%5CCP%206034.JPG

Colors and number lettering, anyway...

  • Member since
    September 2010
  • From: East Coast
  • 1,199 posts
Posted by D.Carleton on Tuesday, November 18, 2014 5:32 PM

Lyon_Wonder

I hope NS will also be painting an ES44AC or SD70ACe as a D&H heritage unit too:)

I'm not so sure that's possible. Even after this transaction the Delaware & Hudson will still exist, on paper, as a Canadian Pacific subsidiary. It would be like painting your locomotive in Union Pacific colors and lettering and running it as your own. Uncle Pete may have a word or two to say about that.

Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • 965 posts
Posted by Lyon_Wonder on Tuesday, November 18, 2014 4:49 PM

I hope NS will also be painting an ES44AC or SD70ACe as a D&H heritage unit too:)

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Valparaiso, In
  • 5,921 posts
Posted by MP173 on Tuesday, November 18, 2014 1:48 PM

Oh, NS competes, just not on a timely basis.  NS runs 2 intermodals each way and those JB Hunt containers make a very impressive site.  It is just not very efficient or fast.

 

ed

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2010
  • From: East Coast
  • 1,199 posts
Posted by D.Carleton on Tuesday, November 18, 2014 8:50 AM

This deal was in the works (and almost happened) just before the activist investors swooped down on CP. At the time all of the D&H was on the block; the southern end would go to NS and the northern end was up for bid. This was before oil became a big deal. Now it will be just the southern half going to NS.

As for NS competing in the New England to Chicago market, why not? EL-NYNH&H gave the NYC a run for their money.

Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Valparaiso, In
  • 5,921 posts
Posted by MP173 on Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:10 AM

This agreement has been in the works for awhile, probably before CP started courting CSX then NS.  

Stratetically it fits quite well for both.  NS has a challenge with it's Chicago - Boston intermodal and while this doesnt place them in Boston, the deal situates them in Albany, one less segment of line not under their control.  Will they purchase Pan American?  Probably not, but they will possibly continue to invest in the Boston line in order to upgrade it.  The majority of intermodal freight NS handles for Boston seems to be JBH and containers while CSX handles the UPS and timely freight.  There is no way NS can compete Chicago - Boston on time....just slow it down and add an extra day and handle volume.

Ed

  • Member since
    February 2009
  • From: South Central Virginia
  • 204 posts
NS and CP Make Deal
Posted by VGN Jess on Tuesday, November 18, 2014 2:11 AM

NORFOLK, VA., and CALGARY, ALBERTA – Norfolk Southern Corp. (NS) and the Delaware & Hudson Railway Co. (D&H), a subsidiary of Canadian Pacific Railway (CP) today announced a proposed transaction under which NS would acquire 282.55 miles of D&H rail line between Sunbury, Pa., and Schenectady, N.Y. The $217 million sale, subject to approval by the U.S. Surface Transportation Board, would benefit customers, competition, and jobs in the northeastern United States.
Does the preceding indicate that an NS-CP merger is no where near a possibility? If they were possibly to be mergered companies in the future, why this excercise in trading resources?

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy