FRA Statement concerning SOFA and Safety

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Good point Overmod. What about a kind of portable platform that is part of the equipment that comes with the engine crew. It attaches to 2 runs on the ladders and it folds like a step ladder. It would look like a suitcase when folded up and it would come out just enough for a person's foot. It should be light weight too.

On the NS there have been telescoping "Brake Sticks" for some time. Problem with them, although they are fiberglass (older aluminum ones were removed from service after several failed) and light, they are still one more thing to carry. When you are hanging on the side of a car you have to hold on with your feet (boots must have a defined heel to lock into the ladder rungs) and one hand and signal or use your radio with the other. Even though the "Suitcase" Step might seem like a good idea, what happens when you need to fix an air hose 20 cars deep and then shove the cut into the yard? No carman is on duty. You need your replacement hose, air hose wrench and then on top of that you must carry your "Suitcase" Step?!? That Step won't be coming with me.

One illustration of the dangers of shove moves happened a few years ago at Selkirk Yard. A Conductor Trainee was riding a shove of MLs (Autoracks) back and was holding on with one hand. He was holding his radio in the other hand, having taken off the shoulder mike issued as he had been taught by an old head conductor (don't pick up bad habits like this). He slipped and dropped his radio losing communication with the crew and was unable to signal a stop as he came abreast of a locomotive protruding past the fouling point on the adjacent track. Luckily, the engineer followed the rule of stopping the move in half the given distance and although the Trainee was banged up a bit as he was rolled along the long hood of the locomotive, he fell onto the locomotive walkway and suffered only minor injuries. Photos of the locomotive were posted at terminals. The outline of the Trainees body was clearly visible in the dirt and grease on the locomotive. He quit the railroad the next day.

LC

[Anonymous]

Andrew-

Keep looking for the switching sliver bullet. If you find it let us know.

As to harnesses and platforms, as dey say in Joisey FUGGEDABOUTIT!

Ed-

I gotta add a couple more to the list of least favorites to ride. Autoracks (those vertical handholds are impossible), Any intermodal car (if you are over 5'0", the ladders require severe contortions) and tank cars with only one grab (the tubular type).

The tanjks I have problems with because we see so many with the grab rusted through or nearly so. SInce you only have one, if it is rusted through you can literally fall away from the car if it lets go.

LC

[Junctionfan]

Maybe if it was to work, the switch crew would have to be coached to act and not react like the military does with its recruits.

Actually I'm just trying to fish for a solution to decrease safety hazards for the switch crews. I haven't really heard one.

[edblysard]

You have to be able to step off, no thinking about it.....

Ed

[Junctionfan]

For the harness system, what about an emergency pull cord for quick release? Like a parachute system, one good pull and than you are free.

[edblysard]

Oh boy....
Lets try it this way...
Least favorite cars to ride, in order are: Boxcar, open top hopper, open top gon any flat car, and coke/coal cars...
No place to stand, and by stand, I mean no place to put one foot in a comfortable position to support your body weight, it all rides on you arms and ankles.
Due to the angle you have to hold yourself, and the fact that there is no end platform or crossover platform to "stand" on, you get fatigued quick.

Favorite car to ride...tank car, Ortner open top aggerate car, coil cars...
All have a crossover platform that extends outside the plane of the body of the car, on tankcars, you can rest one foot on the outside grab iron, one foot on the crossover platform, and stand behind the handrailing, all the time keeping yourself out side the Red Zone.
You can "hug" the handrail, and any slack action will not whipcrack you off the car.

As for Andrews fold down plarform, it wouldnt live long, a few kicks or trips down a hump lead, and it would fold down and get torn off by cars in other tracks.

Worse yet, if they did fold down enough to provide a safe place to ride, they would stick out far enough to change the plate rating on the car, and present a hazzard to switchmen...imagine one folded down, its night time, your switching on a dark lead, and one of the cars behind you has a two foot wide shelf sticking out from its side....having one of those smack you in the back of the head, or in the back would ruin your evening!

Been whacked by a 4X4 on a flatcar before, besides having a splinter in my scalp, got a heck of a headache...

Even if it is removable, thats just on more piece of equipment to keep track of, and you would have to stop the movement to attach or remove it...

Yes, I know, all the Class 1s require the movement to stop before you board or detrain....but at a switching road like mine, you dont.
Getting on and off moving equipment is required.

And, just as a personal note, I find it easier to get on a moving car than a standing car, the momentum of the car does the work for you, once you have your trailing foot in the stirup, all you have to do is "stand up", the cars movement picks you up.

As for a harness, I though about that quite a few times, it makes sense at first, after all, a harness will keep you from falling...except there are times when falling off is exactly what you want to happen.
If you are riding the car in the position you are supposed to, and say, you pass out, (pick a reason) you should fall to the forward outside position, away from the car and tracks....

Don't know how many times I have ridden a cut into a yard track, only to discover at the last second that the track next to the one I am shoving has rolled out some, instead of the 4 feet clearance I though I had, its now 9 or 10 inches...now, I am skinny, but not that skinny!
The time it would take to un clip a harness would get you killed...
And before you think that stopping the move is a option, remember, most yard moves are without air on the cars, only the locomotive brake for stopping, by the time the slack runs out, its way to late.

You have to be able to de-train in a second....Nathan, this is why learning how to get on, and off moving equipment counts, big time!

Derailments, sideswipes, cornering cars and lose or hanging chains, baleing wires, dunnage(my 4X4), shifted loads, excessive High Wide loads, all of this stuff can creep up on you in a few seconds, if your attached to the car your riding by any other device besides your own hands, your dead or injured.

Eyes, ears and a clear communication with the rest of the crew are the best safety appliances you have...

Ed

[Junctionfan]

Good point Overmod. What about a kind of portable platform that is part of the equipment that comes with the engine crew. It attaches to 2 runs on the ladders and it folds like a step ladder. It would look like a suitcase when folded up and it would come out just enough for a person's foot. It should be light weight too.

[BaltACD]

Considering the ways that the Class I's have written their Operating, Safety, Train Handling and all the other rules, you can rest assured that in each of the incidents mentioned the employee involved would be found to have violate one or more of the rules and thus placed himself in the position to be fatally injured.

By the above I am not stating that in the real world of railroading any of those employees were realy doing anything more wrong than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I am just stating that since the 'Lawyers' have been writing the rules the rules are being written as a 'Gotcha' so that no action can go unpunished.

[Overmod]

Junctionfan, where would you put these platforms? Surely not in between the cars, where you're closer to the rails if you should slip or be knocked off, and the direction of most running shocks would be maximized? Where are you planning to put the handrails or handholds -- in front, where they interfere with hydraulic-underframe run-in clearance, or behind, where you have to twist your arm around when watching the cut you're approaching? There's no room for them on the sides... and if you made them so they folded down or out, they'd be out of the loading gauge (as well as an unconscionable hazard to ride; words fail me in describing what a Bad Idea that would be...)

In any case, the rules solve the issue in the most direct and 'safe' way possible, by keeping people off moving equipment entirely. My own worthless opinion is that some kind of safety-harness provision -- a web belt with shoulder harnesses, for example -- that would clip or attach to a ladder or other point would be a much more usable solution than any kind of platform... but such a thing would raise its own range of risks, liability exposure, and ways to cause gruesome injury and death "that would not have happened if the device were not in use." (It would also tacitly wink at the safety provisions in a way that I worry clever executives would make Mandatory Although Not Sanctioned -- one of my least favorite unwritten principles of 'enterprise management' as practiced by whiz-kids.

I'd like to hear from the people who do long moves for a living what their preferences in this regard would be.

[Junctionfan]

It kind of makes me wonder why the railcar manufacturers aren't thinking about designing special extendable platforms for the conductors and yard crews to ride on instead of ladders.

[Anonymous]

That's why I walk whenever possible. Some engineers, yardmasters, trainmasters, etc. will gripe that you take too long, but better safe than sorry. And, oh by the way, who's in charge during shoving movements? The switchman/conductor directing the move of course, so it is imperative for old and new alike to remember to stop the movement if unsure. Some yard tracks are so rickety you feel like you could tip over and then SPLAT!!! So, it is a matter of using good judgement in each and every situation. As bad as it seems, UP has a logo they put on their right of ways that reads: "Ask yourself, What could go wrong?" That statement says it all for me when I go to work and before I make moves. Is that switch lined? Do I have a clear track? Is everyone in the clear? ETC.
Riding cars is situational of course and sometimes it just has to be done. Some shove moves can go for a long distance, so it just isn't feasible to walk. I think some get in trouble at road crossings where we give the average person too much credit and assume they will stop. I've seen some pretty stupid things to know that I cannot trust any motorists including police!! [2c]

[edblysard]

Note also, that the report indicates that the majority of deaths occured while performing a shoving movement, and riding on a cut of cars...

Ed

[Randy Stahl]

The disturbing thing still , are the number of fatalitys among the old head railroaders. To be killed at work at age 60 is especially tragic, perhaps the young guys need to do more to keep the complacency out of the workplace.
Randy

[dharmon]

SOFA ...Gotcha.

It just took me off guard, the CRM part. Its an annual requirement for naval aircrews and usually hit once a quarter anyway. I hadn't heard it mentioned here before or really outside of aviation. A while back during one of the "I'm a new conductor and my engineer is a ....." threads it crossed my mind that CRM might apply, since one of the big scenaros that always gets covered is the new pilot and the natural deference to the seasoned pilot even when he's doing something wrong. Well I learn something new everyday.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

LC..

1. SOFA?

2. Its interesting that they use the term Crew Resource Management (CRM). That's a concept that I thought, apparently mistakingly so, was an aviation concept. We both in the military and civil aviation have been putting a lot of manhours and money into CRM training for multi-place aircraft for many years now...at least 10. Do RRs do formal CRM training as a part of training or as an annual requirement?

1. SOFA = Switching Operations Fatality Analysis

2. Crew Management has been around railroads for a long time. I'm sure that there is training for it, but not in my department.

LC

[dharmon]

LC..

1. SOFA?

2. Its interesting that they use the term Crew Resource Management (CRM). That's a concept that I thought, apparently mistakingly so, was an aviation concept. We both in the military and civil aviation have been putting a lot of manhours and money into CRM training for multi-place aircraft for many years now...at least 10. Do RRs do formal CRM training as a part of training or as an annual requirement?

[Anonymous]

Betty Monro, Acting FRA Administrator discusses alarming number of recent switching fatalities:

http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/Safety/SOFA_Message.pdf

LC