railtrail If I understand NS owned Mayflower Lines and UP owned Overnight and was sold a couple of years later. Overnight did very little if any buisness with UP and was thus never intragrated
If I understand NS owned Mayflower Lines and UP owned Overnight and was sold a couple of years later. Overnight did very little if any buisness with UP and was thus never intragrated
Actually, it was North American Van Lines.
The railroads are still involved in the business. They are Major partners with fed ex and ups.
railtrail The railroads want to get back with the public would station to station LTL and package delivery.Back to the 1940s. I know that Railway Express Agency was rife with corruption and was very sick in its last see-Turtles to Tucumcari: A Personal History of the Railway Express Agency. But now UPS and and the Post Office trys its best to avoid rail. Nothing under 500 miles. But railway express was very efficant and even had same day service. The rements of the warehouses had pull tracks and a small army of workers. No town was not served by them. However I have noticed in Europe and Canada rail mail has gone too.
The railroads want to get back with the public would station to station LTL and package delivery.Back to the 1940s. I know that Railway Express Agency was rife with corruption and was very sick in its last see-Turtles to Tucumcari: A Personal History of the Railway Express Agency. But now UPS and and the Post Office trys its best to avoid rail. Nothing under 500 miles. But railway express was very efficant and even had same day service. The rements of the warehouses had pull tracks and a small army of workers. No town was not served by them. However I have noticed in Europe and Canada rail mail has gone too.
Why would they want to? There are two very efficient and competitive and a third not quite so efficient, out there doing an excellent job. The railroad's approach has been to partner with them. Let them do the retail end and the railroads do what they do best, the line haul.
railtrail What I am looking at is a Railway Postal System where trains would stop at special platforms and there would be mini containers that would be automaticaly pushed on and off in seconds--rather then unloading a entire Trailer at the Intermodal Ramp and draying it to/from the UPS Package Terminal.
What I am looking at is a Railway Postal System where trains would stop at special platforms and there would be mini containers that would be automaticaly pushed on and off in seconds--rather then unloading a entire Trailer at the Intermodal Ramp and draying it to/from the UPS Package Terminal.
Might there be an opportunity transporting PODS and the like by rail?
http://www.pods.com/
Just as they do in Australia and to some extent in Britain. Using a small 20 ft container means a small truck can pick it up and deliver it to the customer's site and even negotiate tight streets and alleys.
First of all, they would draw the opposition and ire of all the truckers. The only difference today is that you can get a truck to bring the delivery right to your doorstep instead of a REA office where you have to pick it up yourself. In some cities, REA also had local delivery service (for an added charge) so the item, especially smaller items, could be quickly delivered. But for larger and heavier items, there should still be a place for REA to compete with the trucking companies that use our free roadways.
Santa Fe Skyways was a freight-only venture, post-WW2. As noted by another poster, it was shut down by the government. The air-rail transcontinental passenger service you refer to was an earlier experiment, in the '20's or '30's I believe, and the airline involved was the predecessor to TWA (not connected to either the ATSF or PRR).
Also, a poster mentions that LTL/package companies such as UPS or FedEx are national, whereas no one railroad covers the entire country. In fact, UPS and FedEx are now global. If you're asking whether UP or CSX should consider buying one of these companies, how about trying it the other way around? Should global freight handling companies buy one or more US railroads?
I don't believe that Rock Island Motor Transit was ever in the package delivery business. I remember seeing Rock Island trucks in Minneapolis/ St.Paul area used in local cartage in the late 1960's. These trucks were gone a decade before the RI demise.
Package delivery is a tough way to make a buck. Fedex and UPS already have the cream of the business. They also have the infrastructure; like warehouses, the trucks, and drivers.The other package delivery business is done by independent contractors who go after the rest of the business that UPS and Fedex doesn't want. Warren Buffet isn't going to sell popsicles at the North Pole and he is not going to get into the package delivery business either
Re: Thread title query: No.
Victrola1 Freight railroads getting back into less than carload anything is as likely as their re-entering the passenger business.
Freight railroads getting back into less than carload anything is as likely as their re-entering the passenger business.
I hope you're right! That way guys like me can continue to cream 10% to 20% off the rate for simply setting up the consolidation and the distribution... no assets beyond a phone and computer required.
Railroads set up bus operations when the automobile made unprofitable the every stop local passenger train. The bus was more efficent at stopping every few miles to drop off and pick up a few passengers. The bus did the same with packages.
Railroad bus operations used existing passenger stations. Buses could replace and/or reduce passenger rail service on branch lines. The bus would take travelers to the railroad's mainline.
Railroad bus service also parelled mainlines. Passengers from small towns along the mainline could get off at the next small town. Passengers could change from the bus to a train at the next larger city station where the limiteds stopped.
Passenger service was at the forefront of shifting from pick up and deliver everywhere by rail to long haul by rail. Freight followed the same trend. The LCL business heavily into local pickup and delivery went away entirely.
How much of a role regulatory agencies played in railroads not becoming total intermodal transportation service providers is a what if.
Santa Fe Skyways was forced out of business by the CAB (Actually the airlines that that controlled the CAB)
Did Rio Grande Trailways and Gulf Transport carry packages?
Johnny
Victrola1 wrote: [snipped]"...The strategy back then may have been to retain business that was going to trucks with the railroads own trucks. I believe there was a Burlington motor freight operation similar to Rock Island Motor Transit.
The Rock Island went broke. Burlington Northern did not. I believe Burlington Northern sold off its legacy motor freight operation not long after deregulation.
Been there. Done that. The railroads have shown little inclination to run their own motor freight operations. Selling haulage to motor carriers set up to handle pick up, delivery and small package and LTL marketing has been the trend..."
I am not wanting to get out in the weeds and argue this point, but at one time or another, a number of American RR did get into other forms of transportation, by way of enhancing their own services, and potentially their bottom lines (?).
The Missouri Pacific operated not only as a motor carrier, but in other areas as well. Here are a couple of videos they produced ( the first couple of minutes are 'slow') @http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaSf9_Ez-eQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56EZXSSXAjk
As was also mentioned the Burlington Northern had its own motor carrier, and then its own cargo airline ( based in Ft. Wayne,Indiana)
Also mentioned UPRR purchased the assets of Overnite Transportationaround about 1999(?) IIRC. Overnite Trans. was a carrier based out of Virginia at the time, and was embroled in disputes with the Unions, as a primarily, non-union operator. Union Pacific then sold Overnite Transportation to United Parce Service.
Southern Pacific Transportation was the motor carrier arm of the Southern Pacific RR. SPRINT was also started by the SP Corporation, as well.
AT&SFRR ( Santa Fe RR) had its own motor carrier system operation. Santa Fe Trails was its Motor Bus Operation ( later sold to 'Trailways' ) And then there was the Santa Fe Skyways, An airline started after WWII to be an adjunct to its long distance trains ( Passengers were swapped to and from the trains in (IIRC) The area of Avard,Okla.(?) it utilized 4 engine Douglas(C-54/DC-7) aircraft based out of Wichita,Ks. It only lasted for about three years(?).
A number of other railroads used their own short haul trucking operations to service "Pool Car', and captive LTL Freight Car business; via their own Company On-Line Freight Houses to handle their LTL Business.
Pennsylvania and New York Central were also in their own LTL motor freight operations, I am sure their fans in their areas can attest to what those railroads did to support those operations.
Yes, Overnite offered LTL. Once, I received a shipment that came in by Overnite, and I did not see anything else in the van.
We were needing a certain inhalation hazard gas, and our supplier had none at its Boise distribution point--so the supplier shipped us two cylinders (about 15-18 inches tall and 4-5 inches in diameter) from Research Triangle Park, in North Carolina. When our buyer for chemicals and cylinder gases was told that they were being shipped Overnite, she wondered how they would reach us so quickly, knowing no inhalation hazard is shipped by air. Someone told her that they were coming by truck. I am certainthat the supplier paid the freight, and charged it off as a business expense.
Railroads used to say truck it. "Complete transportation for the heart of America."
http://www.rits.org/www/histories/RIMT/RIMT.html
Rock Island Motor Transit used to offer truck service. Check the links in the above and you will find a map that nearly mirrors the Rock Island's rail routes. This was in days when the I. C. C. controlled almost everything for hire crossing state lines.
Does anybody know if Rock Island Motor Transit and other rail owned trucking operations were government restricted to markets the railroad already served?
If any trucking company tried to expand their operations before deregulation it was hellish to do so. Proof of service need, other motor carriers with authority in the targeted market expansion would protest, endless hearings, etc. etc. Add to those hurdles a trucking operation owned by a railroad trying to expand its territory.
The strategy back then may have been to retain business that was going to trucks with the railroads own trucks. I believe there was a Burlington motor freight operation similar to Rock Island Motor Transit.
Been there. Done that. The railroads have shown little inclination to run their own motor freight operations. Selling haulage to motor carriers set up to handle pick up, delivery and small package and LTL marketing has been the trend.
Overnite Transportation was a truckload (and LTL?) hauler when purchased and later sold by UP. As mentioned above, it was sold to United Parcel Service where it continues to operate under the brand name of "UPS Freight".
One thing to remember - UP was the owner of the trucking company 'Overnight Express'; they sold it to UPS.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Ulrich Fedex and UPS (and some others) are already doing a great job with overnight package delivery. Aside from lower prices, railroads have nothing to offer this market that would be considered an added value to consumers.
Fedex and UPS (and some others) are already doing a great job with overnight package delivery. Aside from lower prices, railroads have nothing to offer this market that would be considered an added value to consumers.
If any RR wanted to move into the package carrying business as in days of olde, the best way to do that would be by purchase of one of the companies that already does it-UPS, Fed Ex, DHL, etc. The cost involved in setting up a new national collection and delivery network would be ruinously expensive-and that's just for the hardware, terminals, vehicles and staff. Add in the cost of marketing to let the world know you are (yet another) company to ship packages with and you have mortgaged your entire future. And maybe the one after that, too.
But if, say, Union Pacific wanted to become the UP in UPS or CSX wanted to be CSFedEx, there is still the problem that the package delivery guys go everywhere and RR's don't. I'm not talking about every little town that no longer has tracks, let alone a depot, let alone an agent. I mean geographically. The package delivery guys are truly national. US RR's aren't-and aren't likely to be. So, either a RR absorbs a package delivery network that operates mostly beyond their service territory or a package delivery company absorbs a volume freight hauling network that only helps than in a limited area (and comes with other freight like chemicals, autos, steel, coal, oil, grain, etc. that is nothing like they have any experience handling).
It would make UP's merger service meltdowns look like overnight double rush express delivery. The two businesses are compatible but not comparable.
greyhounds said: "...But hey, there is something brewing..."
And this: "...Finally, I'll repeat the well proven statement: The railroads did not "Loose", "Walk away from", or in anyway voluntarily shed the LCL business or the perishable business. They were driven out by inane government regulation. Regulation was born out of flat out ignorance and that did hurt the US economy and the American people.
Once you get forced out of a line of trade that requires special expertese, it's Hell to get back in..."
Greyhounds is the expert in this as far as the Rail side of it and his experience with those organizations.
I cannot speak to any other areas, but out here ( along side the BNSF) they certainly seem to be moving plenty of LCL type sutff.. U.P.S and FedEx logo'ed equipment riding the TOFC in solid trains, and in mixes with COFC as well... Not to mention the other OTR Companies that are riding the rails as well...I know they are LTL and paying premiums for their service point to point. I am also seem a lot more trailers with their reefers on and working. I am not sure the railroad needs to be in the 'loose freight business' at this point. They seem to be doing very well at what they do, and demand premium services for their services... Let the poeple who have the distribution networks step in and do what they do well. For the railroads to get back in the 'package delivery' or 'pool car' business would seem to be almost like reinventing the wheel. The Railroads have stepped into a void that the truck companies have created for themselves....Things have changed, in the trucking industry, more truckers are more interested in getting into, or staying in their 'home' regions( certainly facilitated by State and Federal enfiorcement of more and more regulations)...The railroads have facilitated that, stay in home region, desire with their services. In practically all facets of the trucking industry, they are experiencing shortages of drivers willing to 'stay out' for long periods of time.
schlimmschlimm wrote the following post 4 hours ago: dehusman Why not go after business that was abandoned in the past, like this or frozen meat, as greyhounds suggested earlier? They have, that's why all those brand new reefers are floating around out there. Remember also that the meat trade didn't move in railroad cars, they were all mostly privately owned. Many of the intermodal trains carry refrigerated trucks or containers that carry foods and meat, its just not that visible unless you are specifically looking for it. I suggest you look at the earlier threads concerning this that greyhounds posted. It was his area of expertise.
Very little animal protein (meat/poultry) moves by rail in the US. There is some frozen product for export, that's about it.
There is currently a demonstration project underway moving fresh meat by reefer car from a Missouri River point to the northeast. This project seems to be working quite well.
It wouldn't mean anything that meat by rail, when it moved, moved mainly in private equipment. But I don't think that was so. Railroads had large reefer fleets, usually through subsidiaries specializing in temeperature controlled transportation. Merchants Despatch of the NYC was one of these subsidiaries. They hauled a lot of meat.
I've run in to two basic responses when I try to talk to railroad folks about the heavy volume, long haul opportunities meat presents.
1) They deny the business exists. This is straight out of John Kneiling's: "If we don't haul it it doesn't exist" experiences.
2) They develop a far away blank stare.
But hey, there is something brewing.
Finally, I'll repeat the well proven statement: The railroads did not "Loose", "Walk away from", or in anyway voluntarily shed the LCL business or the perishable business. They were driven out by inane government regulation. Regulation was born out of flat out ignorance and that did hurt the US economy and the American people.
Once you get forced out of a line of trade that requires special expertese, it's Hell to get back in.
dehusmanWhy not go after business that was abandoned in the past, like this or frozen meat, as greyhounds suggested earlier? They have, that's why all those brand new reefers are floating around out there. Remember also that the meat trade didn't move in railroad cars, they were all mostly privately owned. Many of the intermodal trains carry refrigerated trucks or containers that carry foods and meat, its just not that visible unless you are specifically looking for it.
I suggest you look at the earlier threads concerning this that greyhounds posted. It was his area of expertise.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
dehusman2. As bulk cargoes, such as oil, lessen, the capacity will be there. And LCL is a more steady business. Not really. LCL is HUGELY seasonal, peaking right before Thanksgiving and then the week before Christmas. Besides they are already carrying a huge slice of the LCL business, why would they want to set up a business to attract the business they already haul? 3. The ROI is better than what the railroads currently achieve with their traffic mix. For the line haul yes, but that probably doesn't include all the trucks, drivers, retail establishments, mixing centers, advertising overhead that would be required to support an independent distribution network. Back in the 1970's and 1980's the railroads tried this and is was a dismal failure.
2. I was referring to a longer time span.
3. The ROI figures include all of the costs you mention. Why not get into a more profitable sector? Or at least buy out an existing forwarder? The rails already carry the LCL and packages wholesale, so why not get a much larger portion of the pie? FedEx was a start up. Probably the naysayers back then asked why try to compete in an already crowded, compative sector.
schlimm 1. Where did they find it before when most freight moved slower?
2. As bulk cargoes, such as oil, lessen, the capacity will be there. And LCL is a more steady business.
Not really. LCL is HUGELY seasonal, peaking right before Thanksgiving and then the week before Christmas. Besides they are already carrying a huge slice of the LCL business, why would they want to set up a business to attract the business they already haul?
3. The ROI is better than what the railroads currently achieve with their traffic mix.
For the line haul yes, but that probably doesn't include all the trucks, drivers, retail establishments, mixing centers, advertising overhead that would be required to support an independent distribution network. Back in the 1970's and 1980's the railroads tried this and is was a dismal failure.
Why not go after business that was abandoned in the past, like this or frozen meat, as greyhounds suggested earlier?
They have, that's why all those brand new reefers are floating around out there. Remember also that the meat trade didn't move in railroad cars, they were all mostly privately owned. Many of the intermodal trains carry refrigerated trucks or containers that carry foods and meat, its just not that visible unless you are specifically looking for it.
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Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Murphy Siding Where would the railroads find the extra capacity to handle packages or LCL, both of which are presumed to move faster than standard freight?
Where would the railroads find the extra capacity to handle packages or LCL, both of which are presumed to move faster than standard freight?
1. Where did they find it before when most freight moved slower?
3. The ROI is better than what the railroads currently achieve with their traffic mix. Why not go after business that was abandoned in the past, like this or frozen meat, as greyhounds suggested earlier?
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