BART potentially could not purchase off the shelf rolling stock as in addition to wider wheel sets the car bodies may require a slightly different design other than cosmetic appearance.
Murph,
Think special order wheelsets, MOW equipment specific to BART, etc.
Had Marin County voted to join BART, the the rans from SF to Marin and beyond would have traveled over the Golden Gate Bridge on a deck below the roadway. The Golden Gate experiences periods of high winds, so the gauge was made wider to provide a larger margin of safety with respect to overturning from wind forces and bridge swaying.
The other odd aspect of BART is the 1,000V potential on the third rail.
- Erik
ccltrainsThe BART wide gauge also made the cost higher because very few off the shelf items could be used.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
ccltrainsThe origin of the 4' 8 1/2" gauge is lost in history. One of the most believable accounts is that was the width of the ruts in roads made by Roman chariots.
Which, by association, means it's about the width of two horse's behinds. At least according to one theory...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Think of poor Australia. They had three main gauges: 5' 3" Irish gauge, Standard (4' 8 1/2") and cape gauge (3' 6") plus many other gauges used in mining, forestry, temporary building lines etc which did not interchange. Fortunately they are standardizing on 4' 8 1/2". When the Ghans was finally completed to Darwin it was rebuilt to standard gauge. Wikipedia has a nice discussion on Australian gauges. Google "Australian Railroad Gauges".
PNWRMNM zkr123 What is the point of creating a wider or narrower gauge railroad? It seems like a lot of extra and specialized parts. zkr, For a book length treatment of this subject world wide buy the book "Tracks Across Continents Paths through History" by Douglas J. Puffert. Available from University of Chicago Press. It is item 58 in 2014/15 Book Sale Catalog. Tell them price code is AD1200 and it will cost $17.00 plus $6.00 S&H. Phone 773-702-7000 and have credit card in hand. Puffert is an ecconomist interested in "path dependent" phenomina, and he uses gauge to as a case study. The historical part is very good, is the bulk of the book, and itself is worth the price. My only complaint is that he accepts without examination the claims that some broader gauge would have been better. Mac McCulloch
zkr123 What is the point of creating a wider or narrower gauge railroad? It seems like a lot of extra and specialized parts.
zkr,
For a book length treatment of this subject world wide buy the book "Tracks Across Continents Paths through History" by Douglas J. Puffert. Available from University of Chicago Press. It is item 58 in 2014/15 Book Sale Catalog. Tell them price code is AD1200 and it will cost $17.00 plus $6.00 S&H. Phone 773-702-7000 and have credit card in hand.
Puffert is an ecconomist interested in "path dependent" phenomina, and he uses gauge to as a case study. The historical part is very good, is the bulk of the book, and itself is worth the price. My only complaint is that he accepts without examination the claims that some broader gauge would have been better.
Mac McCulloch
Do you see a general consensus for what gage would be better than standard gage? I am thinking it has to be somewhere around 5 ft.
zkr123What is the point of creating a wider or narrower gauge railroad? It seems like a lot of extra and specialized parts.
Puffert is an ecconomist interested in "path dependent" phenomina, and he uses gauge to as a case study. The historical part is very good, is the bulk of the book, and itself is worth the price. My only complaint is that he accepts without examination the claims that some broader gauge would have been better. Doing calculations on this question would be largely dependent on what assumptions and what time period (technoloy) one might choose. Also important, and unexplored, is the issue of "light" vs. "heavy" practice holding gauge constant. The author mentions this with a few first cost examples, but that is as far as he goes. Think of the difference between early British and early American practice in terms of grades and curves. He also avoided the issue of loading gauge, that is how big a hole must be built to handle taller, wider equipment. Here the American built it cheap and quick evolved into one of the larger loading gauges while the Brits have long been constrained by the small loading gauge that was "good enough" in the 1840's and 1850's.
Complaints aside, the book is well worth the cost. Get it now if you want it since this looks to be a close-out offering.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
GERALD ALEXANDERJust like the spelling of theater/theatre. Either is correct...
But the semantics are commonly recognized as different. Nobody talks about 'theater people' who knows anything about the theatre; nobody but MI6 would refer to a 'theatre of war'.
The thesaurus is a guide to semantic meanings, not a table of equivalents. Too many people get lazy and use it the wrong way. Please don't be one of them.
Kyle I did a bit of research on the history of railroads in the United States, and I remember I read somewhere some railroads had a different gauge to discourage competition from another railroad, however they realized that by using a standard gauge, they could link their systems together and capture a larger share of the tonnage hauled in the US.
I did a bit of research on the history of railroads in the United States, and I remember I read somewhere some railroads had a different gauge to discourage competition from another railroad, however they realized that by using a standard gauge, they could link their systems together and capture a larger share of the tonnage hauled in the US.
You also had situations like the city of Erie Pennsylvania which passed laws that any railroad entering the city from the east or southeast had to be 4 foot 8 inches or less in gage and any railroad entering from the west or southwest had to be 5 foot or more in gage. Also no railroad could enter the city more than 1 city block. Erie wanted to ensure business for the carriages and the hotels.
Kevin C. Smith Murphy Siding Either am correct?
Murphy Siding
Either am correct?
No,
It's I, there, am correct.
I worked with PBTB in Atlanta (MARTA) along side many of the engineers who designed BART. I was told that the BART gauge would provide greater stability in minor earthquakes and high coastal winds. They also wanted a unique system evidenced by the "A" cars with the sloped nose.
Just like the spelling of theater/theatre. Either is correct...it's just the preference of the writer.
Euclid Either “gage” or “gauge” are correct. Both are equally valid spellings. It makes no difference how railroad companies or other railroad organizations spell it. Like everyone else, they are free to choose which of the two legitimate spellings to use.
A check for on-line definitions shows that "gage" is a variation on "gauge," but that "gage" itself makes no mention of measurement at all:
noun 1. something, as a glove, thrown down by a medieval knight in token ofchallenge to combat. 2. Archaic. a challenge. 3. Archaic. a pledge or pawn; security. verb (used with object), gaged, gaging. 4. Archaic. to pledge, stake, or wager.
verb (used with object), gaged, gaging.
Okay; just don't spell it "guage."
Johnny
BuslistIn North American Railway Engineering practice it's GAGE, which my former boss would frequently remind everyone. Check the AREMA Manual for example.
Much as it galls me to say this -- when referring to AREMA standards (which means when discussing the technical details of track 'width') it's "gage". No need to invent a reason why four letters gets the job done as well as five.
Here is CSX official language (from their "Standard Specifications for the Design and Construction of Private Sidetracks"):
"The gage of track is the distance between the heads of rails, measured at right angles thereto, at a pointfive-eighths (5/8”) inch below the top of rail. Standard gage is 4’-8 1/2”. No change in gage on accountof curvature will be permitted without the express permission of CSXT. Gaging must be done at thetime the rail is laid."
To drive home the point, here is language from the BNSF counterpart ("Design Guidelines for Industrial Track Projects") which not only establishes the difference, but makes it in the 'opposite' direction from the semantics I learned:
"A track gauge manufactured for the purpose of measuring gage should be used ratherthan a tape measure. Gage is to be checked at every third tie. Do not strike rail directly with a maul,either on top when driving spikes, or on side to obtain track gage."
Note that these are both references provided for non-railroad personnel, for whom the word 'gauge' would almost surely be the 'accepted' normal and correct spelling... and many of whom might be inclined to complain about the spelling that has been used...
I think now that this is stronger than some other nomenclatural controversies, like "SE Mallet" for "simple articulated", or my own "ancillaries" for "auxiliaries". Perhaps one of the professionals like MC can weigh in on the correct use of 'gage' in technical contexts.
[Note: the wack formatting of the quoted sections is due to more stellar design by the Kalmbach IT people. May they get around to restoring the 'compose' feature -- preferably with the ability to edit in formatted view, about the only way to fix this kind of problem with rendering line breaks -- soon!]
Euclid CSSHEGEWISCH Euclid I always go with "gage." It is legitimate spelling, and if you can get the job done with four letters, why use five? You appear to be a disciple of the Tribune Simplified Spelling system, one of the zanier ideas of Col. Robert McCormick. No Tribune Simplfied Spelling Systen; just a word with two alternate spellings. gage4 /ɡeɪdʒ/ noun, verb 1. (US) a variant spelling (esp in technical senses) of gauge
CSSHEGEWISCH Euclid I always go with "gage." It is legitimate spelling, and if you can get the job done with four letters, why use five? You appear to be a disciple of the Tribune Simplified Spelling system, one of the zanier ideas of Col. Robert McCormick.
Euclid I always go with "gage." It is legitimate spelling, and if you can get the job done with four letters, why use five?
I always go with "gage." It is legitimate spelling, and if you can get the job done with four letters, why use five?
You appear to be a disciple of the Tribune Simplified Spelling system, one of the zanier ideas of Col. Robert McCormick.
No Tribune Simplfied Spelling Systen; just a word with two alternate spellings.
Its interesting to note that even the FRA Track Safety Standards use gage.
I think that's what they teach in school these days. If you can't spell it, fake it.
Norm
Gage--doen't that refer to greengage plums?
My former boss who was somewhat of a linguist maintained that measurements are taken with a gauge such as pressure gauge or a rain gauge A fixed measurement or set of measurements such as the distance between the rails or a set of clearance measurements is a gage (as in loading gage for the clearance measurements). I could only take his word for it, but then he was a former PRR guy!
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