Railroad right of ways are often way wider then the space that they use. Why fight the trend seems that I remember that UP and CN had a energy divsion and was in the pipeline and gas buisness at one time
(1) Railroads do not like losing control of their assets, especially railroad corridors. Parallel pipelines are a bozo-no-no, especially regulated hazmat carrier pipelines. When pipeline/ underground utility work starts dictating when the operating department can run trains, senior management goes ballistic/ nuclear.
(2) Many lessons were learned with fiber optic cables 15-20 years ago. NEVER again. Santa Fe shut down more than a few cable ops for reckless or dangerous acts. I suspect others did as well. Railplow ops almost don't happen anywhere anymore.
(3) Railroads require casing within 25' / Pipeliners abhor it. (cathodic protection issues)....Amusing to watch pipeliners fight to keep other utilities/pipelines out of existing pipeline corridors and also what happens when too many pipelines try to parallel a rail line at the receiving end.
(4) State regulations in Indiana, Iowa, Colorado and some other places are about to create some nightmare lawsuits and scenarios. Major Class Action case involving two Class One's is getting started. In Colorado it is principally high tension power lines, but....
(5) Why do the railroads have to surrender their buffer zones to people who are too cheap to clear their own R/W, are in too much in a hurry to build instead of plan their work, still have a reputation of being careless/ reckless???????????? (but have finally seen the "light" even though the fly by night stuff still happens.)...Frequent problem with pipeline people has been the build it first and ask for forgiveness later attitude -or- asking for permission AFTER construction has begun and pipe is being laid within sight of the railroad. Plenty of Ag owners don't want pipeline under them either.
The further east you go, the narrower the R/W' s get and there are plenty of places where a rail line and a pipeline would simply not coexist. (Then again, I can think of places on the west coast where railroad main track R/W's are only 17-25 feet wide plus plenty of places where there is no R/W (ordinances, charter, easements, etc. where railroad has the right to cross but not the parallel utilities.)
Liquid Hazmat Pipeline outfits and railroads are already clashing bigtime over crossings and whose design rules apply. The gas industry and the railroads came to an equitable agreement, but the liquid people are a little arrogant (it's their way or the highway attitude).
It is amazing the amount of damage to the ground and under the surface level that at major derailment can cause. 1989 is a case in point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bernardino_train_disaster
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Balt: I was there for the derailment, not the weeks later explosion caused by the nicked steel CalNev pipe. Will never forget the discolored bright blue & orange wheelsets from the locomotive traction motors or the dispatchers sending us to find the derailment on the other guy's railroad to make sure it didn't bite us.
Conversely, I have seen the mess, up close when a pipeline fails on more than one location, usually water (thankfully, usually an old pre-1958 crossing w/o casing or a bootlegged installation). Reclamation usually is a PITA and if it shuts down the railroad while remediation takes place, the operations people sport fangs, claws and daggers.
What is the process when a railroad runs east-west, and the Acme Pipeline Company wants to run a pipeline north-south crossing the active railroad line? Does Acme just drop a line on a postcard asking permission?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
MC ++++ Posters need to listen to him. Could write a book on some of the problems he mentioned.
Murphy Siding What is the process when a railroad runs east-west, and the Acme Pipeline Company wants to run a pipeline north-south crossing the active railroad line? Does Acme just drop a line on a postcard asking permission?
SEVERLY more involved than a postcard.
Acme, if they are smart, goes on line and downloads the railroad's pipeline standards; Follows those instructions to the letter; submits their form & checklist, pays the insurance and gets approval 45-60 days later. Unfortunately, the 6-P's get violated and nothing starts until the construction crews are at the R/W fence. Railroad wants to know:
Where? (in railroad terms, no crayon on back of a napkin crap) angle of crossing and footprint...Railroad gets to set rent based on size of footprint and local real estate railroad tax values.
How deep ? (below base or top of rail) - Better be more than 6 feet.
What size? what wall thickness? Type of material Pipe is made of?
Material in pipe being moved?
Pressure?
Casing (size /thickness/depth)? Difference in size between carrier pipe and casing)?
Installation Method and who installs? (installer has safety training and insurance?)
When?
Who is responsible party? (You will never get an easement, so the responsible party has to be accountable and known to the railroad in contract license language. Railroads dearly want to mitigate the risk.)
Nearest manholes and valves to railroad?
Pull up BNSF's Utility Accomodation Policy if you want to see a good, representative example.
http://www.bnsf.com/communities/faqs/pdf/utility.pdf
To paraphrase an old Murphy's Law Postulate: An automatic emergency panic on the pipelines part does NOT require an automatic forced response by the railroad. Chicken Little gets put in timeout.
SEVERE? - Yes! (for darned good reason)
I've seen pictures of pipeline bridges solely for the purpose of crossing the ROW, but I can't find one now. The pipe started underground, came out and over the bridge, and returned underground.
Usually in solid rock areas or permafrost conditions. Boring machines, HDD, drilling units, augers, pipe rammers et al jump and start bucking when they hit rock.
mudchicken Usually in solid rock areas or permafrost conditions. Boring machines, HDD, drilling units, augers, pipe rammers et al jump and start bucking when they hit rock.
mudchicken Unfortunately, the 6-P's get violated and nothing starts until the construction crews are at the R/W fence.
Unfortunately, the 6-P's get violated and nothing starts until the construction crews are at the R/W fence.
"+1" to what mudchicken wrote above, generally. If you've seen the movie "Gas Land", you know what the oil and gas company's "land men" are capable of.
mudchicken [snipped - PDN] . . . (Then again, I can think of . . . plenty of places where there is no R/W (ordinances, charter, easements, etc. where railroad has the right to cross but not the parallel utilities.) . . .
In layman's terms, permission may have been granted back in the mid-1800's to build a railroad and its accessories - only - across the land, not pipelines, electric, telephone, fiber optic, etc. (none invented yet then anyway, so it would have been hard to grant permission for them anyhow). Similar limitations and concerns pertain elsewhere, often under slightly different local names, customs, and details, etc.
A few years back a merchant electric generating company wanted to use a an ex-Reading RR branch line R/W to move its cooling water from the Bethlehem, PA area (sewage treatment plant, actually) to its site about 15 miles southwest. What killed the deal was the fact that many of the easements that comprised the R/W were expressly limited to railroad use only, and even by just allowing the pipeline to use it anyway would subject the railroad to the risk of a lawsuit and loss of the railroad's easement as well under the doctrine of over-use or abuse of the easement. So even if the railroad wanted to cooperate - and there are lots of reasons not to, as noted above - it really can't anyhow.
- Paul North.
@MC - What was this incident you speak of? I wasn't a rail fan back then and am interested to learn more about RR operations - ie what happened? why would dispatcher route you onto another railroad?, etc.
mudchicken (2) Many lessons were learned with fiber optic cables 15-20 years ago. NEVER again. Santa Fe shut down more than a few cable ops for reckless or dangerous acts. I suspect others did as well. Railplow ops almost don't happen anywhere anymore.
A friend of mine was working for NCTD when MCI was putting in fiber optic cables. He made comments to the effct of "railroad safety" and MCI should never be used in the same sentence.
Speaking of cathodic protection: RR electrification will present some interesting challenges, though AC electrification presents a small fraction of the electrolytic corrosion problem as does DC - running a pipeline parallel to the Milw's electrified zone would have been fun.
- Erik
Pipeline on the railroad's right of way sounds like a great idea. Instead of just oil trains being potentail hazards, every train is a potential hazard even if it is carrying water. One train derailing and going through that line, and you have a big problem on your hands. Now imagine a oil train or coal train going through the pipeline. That is going to burn for hours, and cause huge problems.
railtrail Railroad right of ways are often way wider then the space that they use. Why fight the trend seems that I remember that UP and CN had a energy divsion and was in the pipeline and gas buisness at one time
Otherwise, why should the railroad care at all ? No prizes for being "Mr. Nice Guy" in those businesses (unless the pipeline is affiliated with a major shipper elsewhere, in which case different considerations apply). The railroad stands to gain no benefit at all, other than maybe just a fee - and the risk of a lot of headaches, entirely unrelated to the core business except to disrupt it. Not worth the bother for a Class 1 these days. For a regional or shortline, though, it could be "cash cow" - again, different scenario, different outcome.
Murphy Siding mudchicken Unfortunately, the 6-P's get violated and nothing starts until the construction crews are at the R/W fence. 6-P's? A 50's do-wop sextet?
RRs have the ROW so it should bwe easy to get into the pipeline buisness
Troll alert!!
Looks like Ohio River Trail, aka railtrail, is flooding the forum, taking advantage of the software problems.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
In many cases for EASTERN railroads, the pipeline would have to be high above ground where Telegraph Poles used to be located.
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
Railroads might not like a pipeline or utility line on their ROW, however, if it's the most reasonable route, it would seem that the RR would want to negotiate an easment and keep control of the situation. If they don't, the common carrier PL/utility will bring suit under eminent domain, and the RR may have to live with what the court decides.
MidlandMike Railroads might not like a pipeline or utility line on their ROW, however, if it's the most reasonable route, it would seem that the RR would want to negotiate an easment and keep control of the situation. If they don't, the common carrier PL/utility will bring suit under eminent domain, and the RR may have to live with what the court decides.
Eminent domain for encroachments don't quite work the way you think it does, especially w/ FGROW. Frustrates the livin daylights out of the more agressive/ reckless/ in-a-hurry small outfits. And as stated earlier, assuming all R/W is a uniform width is stupid dangerous. Back to the example of the fiber optic bubbas....the contractor was often busy of not following the stakes and taking the path of least resistance. Disastrous consequences ensued with major lawsuits over encroachments on uncompensated landowners property, severed utilities (gas and oil gathering lines cut), future excavation surprises, geological fails and on and on and on. I can think of cases in AR, TN and Utah where the adjoining landowners and lawyers soaked the cable outfits and their low bid contractors.
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