The Internet: a vast wasteland of railroad information?

[jimnorton]

To me it appears that the internet is becoming less and less of a research tool.  Lately, I have realized just how lacking it is when trying to gather rail related information.  Some times I come away thinking its the modern day equivilant of the CB radio rage!

Recently, I wanted to gather information on a recently released Evans double door model.  This particular car was interesting as it was a formerly owned car with Vermont Railway marks and patches.  I was unaware of VTR rostering these kind of cars and wanted to learn the how and when.  Long story short......learned nothing - found nothing.

     

Another instance involved research on prototype wheel set carrying cars.  I surmised that after years and years of magazine articles I could find either some old or new detailed source of information on the net.  I typed in "railroad wheel car."  The closest I got was Hot Wheels Car!

Has anybody else noticed this?  Given my druthers I'd rather have years of printed media to research than the Internet.  Remember this next time you have forsaken print for digital!

     

[samfp1943]

jimnorton

To me it appears that the internet is becoming less and less of a research tool.  Lately, I have realized just how lacking it is when trying to gather rail related information.  Some times I come away thinking its the modern day equivilant of the CB radio rage!

The internet is awash in information..The key is at what level and to what extent one would want to spend their time and energy in the chasing down of the information they want..  Like a library there is all sorts of 'stuff out there. Just as much information that is both informative, and misleading, as well.

I seem to sense a high level of frustration in your post.     The internet is like a parking pass to a member of a college freshman class at a large university... It does not guarantee you anything, but  its' ownersh\ip gives you the right to get out there an seek what you want, and to use it lawfully when you find it.

I like the analogy of the CB Radio!   It was at once your best friend, and your worst enemy.  

The value of its information was yours, as an individual to decide.

[selector]

I liken the experience on the www to that of a child entering grampa's garden and taking a good look around. 

"Is this a weed, Grampa?" 

Noooo!!  Arrgghhhh..

Try different syntaxes in your search.  Sometimes it takes me nearly an hour to find what I seek, and many iterations and constructions of words strung together before I get what I need.

[Semper Vaporo]

I think it is more a matter of information overload or dilution... too much stuff that matches the few words you used to search.

Here are some things you might try to get better results:

1) Try different search engines.  Google is probably the best, but there are others; Bing and DuckDuckGo (yes that is a silly name, but it is a good search engine... and they claim they do not remember what you searched for or sell that info to advertisers).

2) Try rewording your search phrase.  Not only different words, but different order to the words.

3) Try putting some of the search phrase in quotes... like "WHEEL CARS".

4) Try adding a Plus sign ("+") in front of some of the words and a Minus sign ("-") in front of words that you found in previous searches that diluted the results... as in:

+"railroad wheel car" -hotwheels -"hot wheels"

Which will limit the search to only those sites that include Railroad and wheel and Cars in that sequence and without any intervening words and it will eliminate any sites that include "Hotwheels" or "hot wheels" in the site.  Do note that you might miss some sites that might be all about the subject you are searching for, but happen to mention "Hotwheels" as an aside or in reference to maybe a toy replica of what you are seeking.  (I've been bit by that more than once!)

Also note that most search engines ignore the case of the letters that you type in and will find "Wheels" or "wHeElS" when searching for "WhEeLs".

 

 

[edblysard]

As Dr. Alfred Lanning’s hologram states in “I Robot”…

“That is the right question”

It isnt what you are asking, its how you are asking....

[CShaveRR]

Maybe you were looking on the wrong portion of the Internet...

But now you've found the Trains Forum, where somebody just might be able to confirm for you that these cars existed, maybe tell you a little bit about them, or, if you're really lucky, have seen them for himself.

Today's your lucky day!

These cars were leased to the Vermont Railway from late in 1975 to sometime in 1976.   All of the cars had a relatively small version of the Vermont Railway logo to the right of the doors and above center height on the sides.  The cars were relettered from USLX, without being renumbered or repainted (save for adding that logo).  The series were not solid--just random numbers in any of them.  

VTR 10033-10480:  Red cars, white Evans Products markings to the left of the doors.
VTR 10552-10596, 10732-10789:  Red cars, no other markings.
VTR 11188-11477:  Blue cars, white Evans Products markings to the left of the doors.

After 1976 these cars were returned to USLX reporting marks and the logos obliterated. 

[CShaveRR]

Try typing "Wheelset" cars as one word.  There should be some good examples out there.

As for what railroads did, most of them used flat cars.  Odds are they did not have standard rails on them, as one would think, because that would make the wheelsets roll too freely.  Quite often they would have notched guides to hold the wheelsets in place.

Though most railroads used flat cars (and eventually installed bulkheads of sorts on some of them), you'll find exceptions.  C&O's earliest wheelset cars were cut-down USRA box cars, with a portion of the ends and side bracing (but not the sides themselves) left.  And for the most part, C&O went to gondolas instead of flat cars.  Missouri Pacific had some custom-built wheelset cars that looked a lot like coil gons without the covers.  Toward the end of its history, the Chicago & North Western acquired some 75-foot flat cars from TTX (some of their original piggyback cars) and outfitted them to handle a whole lot of wheelsets.

About ten years or so, the Union Pacific got rid of all of its remaining wheelset cars.  Check out the AOK 6300, 6400, and 6500 series: they're ex-UP, ex-MP, and ex-SP.  

[tree68]

As Ed points out, it's all in asking the right question, and that can be tricky.

Sometimes it takes asking some peripheral questions in order to find out how to ask the question you really want answered.

Used to be putting quotes around a term caused the search engine to look for that specific phrase, as opposed to the various words individually.  Might still work.

And sometimes, even asking the right question doesn't hack it, as the information you seek is just too new, as may be the case with the specific model you mention.  If you do the same search in six months, you'll at least get a bunch of reviews and advertisements for vendors selling the model...

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Rail equipment lasts for decades, and the rights-of-way and companies for a century or more.  They 'turn over' much less often than other businesses die and start up, etc.  So there's a lot of history, events, and equipment that predates the Internet, and hasn't made it onto the web via scanning or some other version of digitizing.  

I've seen examples of this in one of my other careers, civil/ structural engineering.  A few years back an otherwise bright young man I know was trying to research the principles (formulas, etc.) for the design and analysis of a shallow-depth (compared to the span) masonry arch bridge that was about 100 years old, and he too was lamenting the lack of information.  No one builds those much anymore, and all the references were books and periodicals from about the same time frame, 100 years ago - no wonder he couldn't find anything on-line !  But it took a while to enlighten and convince him of that. 

Then, too, to also make it hard to find and retrieve info are the never-ending format changes - both software, storage media, and retrieval/ 'playback' equipment, etc.

- Paul North.   

[Convicted One]

jimnorton

To me it appears that the internet is becoming less and less of a research tool. 

Has anybody else noticed this?  Given my druthers I'd rather have years of printed media to research than the Internet.  Remember this next time you have forsaken print for digital!

     

Everything you might ever hope to know (and more) is out there on the internet. The key is to use the resource wisely.

Do what the experts do: Scour all the remote niches until you uncover data that supports your hypothesis, cherry pick the results, ignore all sources that might conflict with your agenda, and insist that anyone who disagrees with you is a fool.

You're welcome!

[GP40-2]

As far as railroads go, yes the internet is full of information. However, much of it is incorrect speculation from railfans. Most of the railfan print media isn't much better...

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

GP40-2

As far as railroads go, yes the internet is full of information. However, much of it is incorrect speculation from railfans. Most of the railfan print media isn't much better...

That statement can be safely applied to just about any field, not just railroading.  The thing that you really need to learn is the credibility and accuracy of your sources.  Some double-check everything and can be trusted, others not at all, and still others somewhere in between.

[GP40-2]

CSSHEGEWISCH

That statement can be safely applied to just about any field, not just railroading.  The thing that you really need to learn is the credibility and accuracy of your sources.  Some double-check everything and can be trusted, others not at all, and still others somewhere in between.

That is true. I think now, as long as the writer has done their home work, there is some good information out there. For instance, Jay Potter's write ups on CSX's AC locomotives are spot on. I think it helps that he has access to accurate information, and much of the equipment is standardized. If you look back at the steam era, most of that stuff is based on speculation from people with limited connections to actual data, or they simply don't understand the data they are looking at...

[gregc]

jimnorton

Has anybody else noticed this?  Given my druthers I'd rather have years of printed media to research than the Internet.  Remember this next time you have forsaken print for digital!

there's no guarantee the information you're interested in is on the web or in print.  While there are many books on some topics, many books are written because there is little information on that topic.

[Semper Vaporo]

gregc

jimnorton

Has anybody else noticed this?  Given my druthers I'd rather have years of printed media to research than the Internet.  Remember this next time you have forsaken print for digital!

there's no guarantee the information you're interested in is on the web or in print.  While there are many books on some topics, many books are written because there is little information on that topic.

 

There is no guarantee that what is printed on paper in a hardbound book is accurate either!

 

I had an antique book on steam locomotives that claimed the "combination lever" on a Walshaerts valve gear was to provide additional power from the heavily constructed Main Rod to move the valve because the higher steam pressure of later engines was making it too difficult for the lighter construction of the Valve Gear to move the Valve!  (The real purpose is to add (or "combine", hence the name) the angle of the Piston position to the angle of the Valve Gear to provide "lead" to the Valve position for improved timing of the admittance of steam to the Cylinder.)

 

I used to subscribe to a magazine that was purported to cover all kinds of Scientific subjects.  I used to read it avidly and thought myself well informed in many things "Scientific"... until I read an article about a subject in which I was actually well versed!  If what we know about nuclear energy, and bird migration, and medicine, and aerodynamics, and sub-atomic particles, and automotive design, and glass making, and space exploration, and, and, and, and, and... are equivalent to what they wrote about computers, then you'd be well off to go hide in a cave than to go anywhere near any of those other 'scientific' disciplines based on their coverage.  The "tabloids" have better and more accurate information about crop circles and alien abduction than that costly Scientific magazine.

 

 

[Convicted One]

Back in the late 90's, as the web became ever so more commercial, many research firms and academia retreated to the "internet2" to avoid the  bandwidth  bind and clutter. What we are left with surely feels diluted in comnparison.

[selector]

Convicted One

jimnorton

To me it appears that the internet is becoming less and less of a research tool. 

Has anybody else noticed this?  Given my druthers I'd rather have years of printed media to research than the Internet.  Remember this next time you have forsaken print for digital!

     

Everything you might ever hope to know (and more) is out there on the internet. The key is to use the resource wisely.

Do what the experts do: Scour all the remote niches until you uncover data that supports your hypothesis, cherry pick the results, ignore all sources that might conflict with your agenda, and insist that anyone who disagrees with you is a fool.

You're welcome!

That describes how I do it to a T.  Glad to see someone else is as switched on as I.

[agentatascadero]

I know people think that everything that ever was is on the net, and maybe I am just another of those old farts who don't know how to google.  But, regards historical railroad information, and old historical information on any subject,  is only on the net if someone puts it there....otherwise it only exists in libraries, record rooms, and wherever else old records are stored.  I think railroading is especially lacking in the "backfilling of info" department.  And, I agree that a lot of what is on the net is put there by folks who clearly are ignorant about the subject they are posting.  AA

[DSchmitt]

Paul_D_North_Jr

I've seen examples of this in one of my other careers, civil/ structural engineering.  A few years back an otherwise bright young man I know was trying to research the principles (formulas, etc.) for the design and analysis of a shallow-depth (compared to the span) masonry arch bridge that was about 100 years old, and he too was lamenting the lack of information.  No one builds those much anymore, and all the references were books and periodicals from about the same time frame, 100 years ago - no wonder he couldn't find anything on-line !  But it took a while to enlighten and convince him of that. 

Many books on Engineering can be found on Google Books, and many published before the 1920's have been scanned and are available as free downloads. There are also many books on railroad technology.

[cacole]

Railroading is certainly not the only endeavor that suffers from the information overload or dearth of usable information on the Internet.

I recently spent the better part of three days searching for some information about a 1978 RV built onto a Dodge 300 truck chassis with duallys on the rear axle and 16.5 inch rims.  My search was for a simple and cost effective way to change to a more readily available 16" tire size by changing out the rims, since no tire shops would even try to find 16.5 inch tires.

The Internet provided hundreds and hundreds of pages of information about changing the rims and sources of new 'show' rims costing hundreds of dollars each, but no explanation anywhere about the problem of my present rims being 'coined' and what it would take to change to regular flat rims.

Finally, I got the address of a business in Tucson, Arizona that specializes in truck and trailer wheels.  I drove there, a 70 mile one-way trip, and had all the answers I needed and the appropriate rims within 10 minutes.

[jimnorton]

Cshaverr:  Thanks.  Couldn't find any mention of the cars anywhere! 

Here is another:  Curious about shipping peanuts by rail.  The Bay Line handled or handles peanut shipments.  I was curious to learn about whether covered hoppers or boxcars were used for raw and finished products.  What came up was "packing peanuts!"

Also, have researched the Columbus & Greenville's unique 40' plug doors in the blue "SOUTHWIDE" paint scheme......Nary a thing information wise.

Thanks for the tips!

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

The incident I described was back in 2000 to 2002, which might have been before Google Books even existed, and certainly before it has as broad coverage as it does today. 

That said, there's still a few valuable treatises that aren't on G-Books yet.  Those of us in the track and engineering sides have sometimes been described as "pack rats" because of our propensity to hoard our copies of such volumes and references (per George Harris of Parsons Brinckerhoff, over on http://forums.railfan.net/forums.cgi?board=Infrastructure ).  For example, MudChicken here has honored me with a copy of a privately published 1984 ATSF manual on the details of turnouts. If there's ever a fire in my house, that's what I'd grab first on my way out the door, the heck with the family pictures . . .  

All in the all, the Internet is a great leap forward compared to anything before it, and it keeps making more information available.  Unfortunately, it does tend to be biased towards the more recent, and yes, one has to be careful as to the amount of credibility to be ascribed to any one source, until it's been proven to be trustworthy on that subject.  Remember the dictum of John H. White, Jr., Curator of the Museum of Transportation at the Smithsonian: "The proof of good history is its sources."  We're better off with the 'net than without it - but no,. it's not perfect, and does have some notable gaps and omissions.   

By the way: Anybody got a link or reference to those wheel cars ? 

- Paul North.          

[Rader Sidetrack]

jimnorton

Curious about shipping peanuts by rail.  The Bay Line handled or handles peanut shipments.  I was curious to learn about whether covered hoppers or boxcars were used for raw and finished products.  What came up was "packing peanuts!"

Well, maybe you need a different search phrase. 

A contributor to Railpictures posted a Bay Line photo, and the caption includes this:

Bay Line GP38 #511 is tied down on the spur serving Golden Peanut. This facility prepares "candy grade" peanuts for shipment all over the United States. These peanuts tend to be larger and tend to be whole nuts rather than halves. Covered hoppers and insulated box cars are used in this service and both car types are fumigated with insect poison before loading. #511 was built August 1969 as Penn Central #7749 http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=445247&nseq=0#remarks

[WSOR 3801]

There are some 89 foot flats with similar racks around as well, NREX 267-269 for sure, might be more.

[BaltACD]

WSOR 3801

There are some 89 foot flats with similar racks around as well, NREX 267-269 for sure, might be more.

^locomotive wheel sets - ie. the bull gear attached to the interior side of the axle.  The bearings have been removed from the axle ends.

[jimnorton]

Good job Radar and WSOR!

One thing I have noticed is so many of the "fan sites" have disappeared.  Used to, I recall a NYSW page, and A&M page, etc.etc.,   Each were kept up to date for a while, then no updates then they disappeared.  A lot like fan pages for beautiful women i.e. Joe Blow's Markie Post Tribute Page or Joe Blow's Janine Turner tribute site.   Unlike a library, the enthusiasm for maintaining web knowledge isn't so dedicated.

An aside....Years back (maybe the early 1990s) when nobody really knew about the Internet I had a railfan friend tell me he found a Florida East Coast GP-40 photo posted on the net.  Back then, we were truly befuddled as to why somebody would do that!  We had no clue of what was to come!

[tree68]

jimnorton

One thing I have noticed is so many of the "fan sites" have disappeared.

I would opine that they disappear because they are a one-person operation - someone's passion.

Eventually they tire of the task or pass on and the site falls into disrepair (or disappears, because no one pays the bill for the server).

[JayPotter]

I consider firsthand observations to be the most accurate sources of information. For example, if I need information about something that occurred in 1940, I'll search for a report that was written during that time period. I believe that the Internet is an extremely valuable tool for disseminating (1) reports of past events that were prepared in the past and (2) reports of current events that were prepared recently. I believe that the Internet is less valuable when we use it in between those two extremes -- i.e. when we post current opinions about past events. Only the originator of that kind of post knows whether the information being disseminated is the product of (1) his or her imagination, (2) a personal recollection, (3) an analysis of a report prepared contemporaneously with the event, or (4) nothing more than an Internet posting that someone else recently made on another Web site. I'm sure that the dissemination of inaccurate information was a problem long before the Internet; however to me, it seems to be more apparent now because of how rapidly and widely the Internet disseminates information.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Thanks much, Mike/ WSOR 3801 !

And to BaltACD for being sharp-eyed enough to spot those details !

- Paul North.

[CShaveRR]

Callenge accepted...

CAGY 14000-14074 are the "Southwide" cars.  They were obtained in 1978 or so from Southwide, Inc., which had them from 1974 until getting rid of them.  The paint job dates from their acquisition in 1973 or 1974 from the Pullman Leasing Company.  They were originally in DSDX series 2000-2199 (for which they wore a rather mundane coat of orange with black ends), but I haven't dug deeply enough to see when they were built.  Of course, old age has caught up with these, and none are left.