A question(s) about my home terminal's Runner track

[Anonymous]

Facts of the Runner track per CSXT Western Region, Chicago Division Timetable No. 1

The Runner begins at Cory milepost 0ZA123.5 and runs south to RB Junction milepost 0ZA128.9. The yard offcially approximately runs from 0ZA 125 to 0ZA 128. Yard Limits (Rule 93) are in effect between 0ZA120.00 RA Junction to 0ZA128.9 RB Junction. Rule 115.105 Use of Specified Tracks:

Brewer - Trains using the runner track 0ZA123.5 and 0ZA128.9 must contact the Brewer yardmaster before using.

113.2 Speed Instuctions:

Brewer yard - All tracks 10mph
Exception - Brewer runner track 25mph

The mainline speed from 125.8 to 127.6 is 20mph, which is essentially from the north crossover (runner to main) to the south crossover (runner to main).


So, it does not say anything about the yardmaster controlling the track. I was mistaken. Crews only have to contact the yardmaster to be allowed to use. So, the dispatcher would indeed still control access to the track.

[Anonymous]

Valley,

I totally agree with you on that particular engineer's thinking. Yes, trains do in fact get a more favorable signal to depart the runner, usually it's only slow clear, but trains can get a medium clear or medium approach. I'm just going to have to pull out that timetable and double check everything. I need the review anyway.

[ValleyX]

Nathan, when trains depart on this runner, are the circumstances such that they are permitted 25 MPH. In other words, do they get a more favorable signal than restricting when they depart the runner and do the turnouts when they depart permit 25 MPH. This is the only explanation I have for the 25 MPH speed limit.

As for the engineer's theory that the yardmaster shouldn't have let him in there, I say bunk to that. Anytime you enter a yard track operated under yard rules, you're on your own, so to speak, and woe to the crew that doesn't understand that and operate accordingly.

[Anonymous]

Mark,

I'll accomodate your request sometime today after I cook my chili. I review my timetables and rule books anyways, so maybe I can actually apply something.

[Anonymous]

Mark,

1: The Running track is controlled by the Brewer yardmaster. A crew must have the yardmaster's permission to occupy the Runner.
2: The dispatcher controlls the signals at either end of the Runner; however, the dispatcher must collaborate with the yardmaster on what trains go on the main and which will use the runner. At the terminal, it is refered to as the yardmaster's track. I believe that if the dispatcher really needs to meet trains in the area he/she can make arrangments with the yardmaster. Usually trains that have to make set outs or pickups are the only ones that use the runner besides yard jobs. There are cases when two Intermodal trains meet and one will be lined for the runner.
3: There are three crossovers between the signals on the runner that connect the main track to the runner and none of these crossovers are controlled or electric lock. I have seen no end "CTC" signs. The runner also has a turnout at each end of the yard that goes towards the lead. If you still have questions or something I have said is not clear I wll grab my timetable and type it out for you; I may have missed something important anyway. This is a good discussion topic, I hope we can keep this going with more "Q" and "A."

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD

The overriding use of the Rule Book in today's railroading is to insure that if there is an incident, that some employee can be held accountable for not complying with one or more rules. As each rule change comes down the line, they are being written with more legalize and less common sense plain understandable railroad English.

When I hired out, too many years ago, the Rule Book was a book about 4 in by 6 in and about 185 to 200 pages, that fit in a mans back pocket, that contained everyting needed to operate trains from the T&E, and non-Op perspective. Now, there are multiple rule books for Operating Rules, Safety Rules, On Track Equipment Rules, Hazmat Rules, Train Handling Rules. Signal Rules all in 81/2 by 11 note book size and weigh multiple pounds.

Rules are no longer set to guide employees to make the correct choices, but to ensure a 'gotcha' when anything happens.

Afraid I have to agree with you, it seems whenever something goes wrong, someone's head has to roll, and it seems to me that it's more often than not a RTE.

[jeffhergert]

I'll throw in my 2 cents worth, and using the GCOR has interpreted by my employer. (At least the local rules people)
If I understand correctly, the runner track is not signalled. The signals governing entrance don't indicate if there is a train, engine, car or switch not lined "normally". Thats's why you always get a Restricting to enter. The track is not considered a "main" track, although it used to be. If this is the case, Yard Limits don't matter. The yard limit is only on the Main track. All other tracks come under 6.28 Movement on Other than Main Track. It's almost the same as 6.27 Movement at Restricted Speed except it dosent't have an absolute maximum speed (in our case 6.27 is 20mph) or looking out for a broken rail. So now you could, but may not want, to go 25mph.
Now for those pesky Restricting signals at the entrance. Rule 9.11 Movement from Signal Requiring Restricted Speed states, "When a train passes a signal requiring movement at restricted speed, the train must move at restricted speed until its leading wheels have passed the next governing signal or the END OF THE BLOCK SYSTEM.
When you go thru the switch to enter the runner track is there a sign located about where the opposing absolute (the leaving signal for the runner) saying End CTC or something like it? As soon as your leading wheels pass that opposing signal you
are leaving the block system and entering (dark) non-signalled track. You have reached the end of block system limits and have fulfilled 9.11.
We had a case here a few years ago that brought this up. We were single tracking west of the end of CTC about 15miles into double track,current of traffic (signalled one direction only). Leaving the CTC Trains running against the current of traffic left the CTC on a Restricting signal and encountered signs End CTC/ATC. The end of the block system. Some trains would run one train length than pick up speed to 49mph (running non-signalled against the current of traffic with an absolute block). There were some who ran to the first flagman/pilot, about 5 miles out, at restricted speed. Needless to say this slowed up trains running wrong main as at the time, one train couldn't enter the limits until the preceding train entirely went past a flagman or left the limits. This brought up when restricted speed no longer applied.
Now when we single track, the trains running wrong main get an absolute block and cut out their ATC (Automatic Train Control) and can run up to 49mph. Following trains are spaced into the limits by 5 minutes and leave their ATC cut in. This inforces restricted speed because over 17mph you get the low speed horn, over 23mph it takes your air. Also intermittently you have to acknowledge the ATC or it takes your air. As soon as the first train leaves the single track, the next train is given an absolute block, cuts out their ATC and now can pick up speed. It really speeds up running wrong main around track work.
Jeff

[BaltACD]

The overriding use of the Rule Book in today's railroading is to insure that if there is an incident, that some employee can be held accountable for not complying with one or more rules. As each rule change comes down the line, they are being written with more legalize and less common sense plain understandable railroad English.

When I hired out, too many years ago, the Rule Book was a book about 4 in by 6 in and about 185 to 200 pages, that fit in a mans back pocket, that contained everyting needed to operate trains from the T&E, and non-Op perspective. Now, there are multiple rule books for Operating Rules, Safety Rules, On Track Equipment Rules, Hazmat Rules, Train Handling Rules. Signal Rules all in 81/2 by 11 note book size and weigh multiple pounds.

Rules are no longer set to guide employees to make the correct choices, but to ensure a 'gotcha' when anything happens.

[edblysard]

You got it...
Restricted speed has no set speed, other than the max allowed speed, which varies by railroad.
So, working under restricted speed, you and you alone are responsible for your own protection, and you should be able to stop short withing 1/2 the visual distance of.....

So if both trains are on the same running track, in opposing movment, they should be able to stop withing 1/2 the visual distance of....

If they collide, its their fault.

Yes, the yard master bears some responsibility, but ultimately, its you responsibility to provide your own protection.

As Mark pointed out, some of the rules are written in a rather ambiguou[:D]s fashion, not the clearest pane in the window...but its all we have, so far.

Ed[:D]

[Anonymous]

Oh, i'm familiar with restricted speed, I was just questioning why the track speed was still 25mph.
Ed, restricted speed is: a speed that will permit stopping within one half the distance of another train, wrong switch, broken rail, EFFICIECNY TEST, stop signal, etc not exceeding 15mph. (that's in my own words, so I'm sure I forgot something).
In Yard Limits, the dispatcher provides protection on the mainline, which a lot of people get confused in school, and in the yard itself the yardmaster gives protection, but you still have to watch out for all the goodies of railroading such as free rolling cars, other crews, switches, etc. And feel free to correct me if I've missed anything. [swg]

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by n_stephenson

Authority and Permission, something I have trouble decifering between...[%-)] And to answer your question Mark, the CSX trackage i run on is all CTC controlled by SB dispatching desk in Jacksonville, FL. As for the runner situation, I know that several trains can share the runner at the same time, and that we always receive a Restricting Indication when entering the runner; which brings me to another question. If a train receives a Restricting Indication entering a track, the crew must operate the train under the indication reguardless of track speed. And, with the runner having several switches accessing the yard being lined against you, plus sharp curves that you'd have to operate at restricted speed anyways, why doesn't CSX just drop the speed limit down to 10 or 15mph??? Why even put the 25mph in there?

it is a max of 15mph...if you can do it in the first place.....you said you get a restricting signal to enter the track from the main....under csx restricted speed rule....i sugest you get your rule book out for csx..and read the the csx rule of restricted speed..that will make it all clear..and keep me from haveing to type the rule all out .....
csx engineer

[edblysard]

Pop quiz time!

Ok, Nathan...

Define restricted speed...

and

Who provideds you with protection, within yard limits?


The way you phrased your question tells me you already know the answer!

[:)]Ed

[csxengineer98]

dont matter what kind of territory it is...if the speed is controlled speed.....thats being able to stop within 1/2 the range of vistion...so it would be the crews fault...
second question...when you recrew a train..you are gorverned by RESTRICTED SPEED untill your train passes a more faverable aspect on a signal..or untill the rear of your train clears signaled terriorty...any time you make your inistal move in a block..(recrewing a train)it is always restricted speed on csx.....always....now if your already rolling..and you stop in a block for what ever reason (defect detector got you for example)... and cant see the next signal...it is controlled speed to the next signal...NOT TO EXCEED THE INDICATION OF THE LAST SIGNAL!!!!!
csx engineer

[Anonymous]

Mark,

Thanks for clearing that up! I finally understand the difference and like you said, it's very important that I do.

[Anonymous]

Authority and Permission, something I have trouble decifering between...[%-)] And to answer your question Mark, the CSX trackage i run on is all CTC controlled by SB dispatching desk in Jacksonville, FL. As for the runner situation, I know that several trains can share the runner at the same time, and that we always receive a Restricting Indication when entering the runner; which brings me to another question. If a train receives a Restricting Indication entering a track, the crew must operate the train under the indication reguardless of track speed. And, with the runner having several switches accessing the yard being lined against you, plus sharp curves that you'd have to operate at restricted speed anyways, why doesn't CSX just drop the speed limit down to 10 or 15mph??? Why even put the 25mph in there?

[Anonymous]

Let me draw you a mental picture of the yard at my home terminal. The mainline runs North/South and the yard is situated on either side of the mainline. Brewer Yard, from west to east, has six yard tracks, a runner, main line, and three more yard tracks. The mainline is signaled, but of course it is in Yard Limits. The Runner is the old #2 main and is signaled only at either end to grant access/exit. The Runner track is controlled by the Yardmaster, and trains can run at Controlled speed at a max speed of 25mph. Yesterday an engineer walked in and said that the yardmaster gave him permission to use the runner track when another train already had permission to use the runner though the same location. He believed that the yardmaster could get in trouble for doing this. My question is, if these two trains were to collide; wouldn't it be the crew's fault and not the yardmaster's fault because trains have to run at controlled speed??? I know Mark, CSXengineer, Ed, Mud, Valley, LC, and others probably will be able to answer this question.
Question 2.... When we recrew trains at Brewer yard the roundhouse is the crew change point. Northbound trains pass an absolute signal at Vine st, which is about 1,000 ft south of the roundhouse. So, when the new northbound crew is ready to depart then can see the next signal at the north end of the yard, but since we did not see the last signal we have to run at restricted speed because we do not know what the last signal indication was and there are switches in between the signals that have no electric locks. Am I right?