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LETTUCE

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LETTUCE
Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 4:29 PM
Reference article in December issue:

Isn't Triple Crown's Roadrailer the logical means for UP to recapture the business? A loading point at or aroudn Salinas, with a unit train of Roadrailers directly to NS's Chicago area facility. Some Roadrailers go on rubber from there, others on existing NS Roadrailer schedules to eastern markets. Shipper has option at a fee to rerout the trailer's highway destination during the period the trailer is on the rails, a sill higher fee permits changes in the rail destination as well.
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Posted by Junctionfan on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 4:53 PM
I UP should get back into the roadrailer business again with more NS partnerships. They seem to be wanting to get going with the Blue Streak think so they should see how much more of NS they can use to their advantage (profit wise of course)

BTW; what does the title of the thread mean?
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Posted by dldance on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 5:29 PM
One problem with eastbound RailRoaders out of CA is back hauls - that never has been balanced for refrigerated transport. A trucker buddy of mine was hauling strawberries eastbound and then back hauling sheet steel in a reefer. He still had a 200 mile dead head on each end.

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Posted by Junctionfan on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 5:37 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by dldance

One problem with eastbound RailRoaders out of CA is back hauls - that never has been balanced for refrigerated transport. A trucker buddy of mine was hauling strawberries eastbound and then back hauling sheet steel in a reefer. He still had a 200 mile dead head on each end.

dd


Surely California would demand something from the east that requires priority and in reefers. Steel in a reefer; was it cold-rolled[:D]
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Posted by ericsp on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:56 PM
UP is trying to recapture produce. They have the Express Lane train in connection with CSXT. One originates in Fresno, CA. and adds blocks from the central coast and other Central Valley yards at Roseville. It runs to North Platte, NE. Others originate at Hinkle, OR and Pocatello, ID and run to North Platte, NE. From there a train runs to Selkirk Yard, NY and Waycross, GA. See the November 2001 issue of Trains. The article mentioned that lettuce is not being shipped because transit times are too long.

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Posted by Junctionfan on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 8:32 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

UP is trying to recapture produce. They have the Express Lane train in connection with CSXT. One originates in Fresno, CA. and adds blocks from the central coast and other Central Valley yards at Roseville. It runs to North Platte, NE. Others originate at Hinkle, OR and Pocatello, ID and run to North Platte, NE. From there a train runs to Selkirk Yard, NY and Waycross, GA. See the November 2001 issue of Trains. The article mentioned that lettuce is not being shipped because transit times are too long.


Would this be roadrailers, Tofc or Cofc, or Reefers (SPFE, UPFE, ARMN-UP reefers)?

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Posted by ericsp on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 8:47 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

UP is trying to recapture produce. They have the Express Lane train in connection with CSXT. One originates in Fresno, CA. and adds blocks from the central coast and other Central Valley yards at Roseville. It runs to North Platte, NE. Others originate at Hinkle, OR and Pocatello, ID and run to North Platte, NE. From there a train runs to Selkirk Yard, NY and Waycross, GA. See the November 2001 issue of Trains. The article mentioned that lettuce is not being shipped because transit times are too long.


Would this be roadrailers, Tofc or Cofc, or Reefers (SPFE, UPFE, ARMN-UP reefers)?





Reefers (RPLs and RPs), RBLs, and XM boxcars. The reefers carry various fresh fruits, fresh vegetables, and cheese. The RBLs carry canned products (mostly tomatos) and wine. The XM boxcars carry tomatos in drums and bag-in-box, whey, and dry milk. The train length varies with the time of the year. It is not uncommon for the train from Fresno to Roseville to have one car during parts of the winter and as many as 40 cars during summer.

The most common reefers are ARMN with UPFE a close second. CRYX show up regularly. Unfortunately SPFE reefers are rapidly disappearing, I have only seen three in the past three years. The RBLs are mostly Golden West Service. SP, UP, CSXT, and STE RBLs are common on these trains. CRYX show up regularly. Last year WSOR RBLs are also common, not this year. The XM are mostly RBOX, CNW, MP, SRN, and EEC.

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Posted by Junctionfan on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 9:02 PM
Who own the ex GARX reefers?
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Posted by ericsp on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 9:09 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Who own the ex GARX reefers?

I have never seen one.

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Posted by Junctionfan on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 9:37 PM
I have seen a couple in videos. I think GATX sold the Arcticars to someone but don't know who. Maybe CryoTrans. I know that Trinity Leasing has some 71 reefers but I don't know if they originally belonged to someone else.
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Posted by route_rock on Thursday, October 28, 2004 12:32 AM
The only thing I can think of that I hauled into Cali hot was LTL freight. Or straight loads of Cat engines going to Kenworth in Mexicali,Mexico.Other than that nothing really was "hot "going in.You could try for the LTL (Con-way is big for running hot LTL) market from LTL out east to their own terminals or to an interline carrier.Reefers to haul steel isnt too crazy I have seen it before lol.Guy was over by 2 thousand gross at the scale but when the officer looked in the back of the rig there was nothing!Three plates on the floor of his reefer just looked like a part of the floor.I am not sure if it was cold rolled(thats the best line I have seen in a while[}:)][:D])but it did provide the backhaul that guy needed to get to his next load.Lets face it backhauls are the biggest problem for all transportation.They could always go through a broker I guess.

Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 28, 2004 4:35 AM
NS Triple Crown marketing is pretty savy and should be able to get some backhaul business. But the truckers providing the service now have the same problem. My idea is that the service would be intensive, at least daily, or five times a week, during the lettuce harvesting season, but that some service would be continued to be provided throghout the year as the first westcoast transfer (rail-road, road-rail) for Triple Crown's Roadrailers. Obvioiusly this is some competition for the existing innovative UP-CSX service, but then doesn't Mercury compete with Ford and don't both benefit? And BNSF has most of the over-the-road trucking company business anyway. The Salinas transfer station should be located by the UP to make the growers happy and minimize traffic congestion.
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Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 28, 2004 6:39 AM
Meat out of the midwest for Cal...and as was mentioned, LTL.

Crouse Freight for years made money by hauling meat to Chicago in refers and then shutting the units down and hauling LTL back to Iowa, KC, and Omaha.

ed
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Posted by greyhounds on Thursday, October 28, 2004 8:13 AM
These are the USDA statistics for lettuce shipments from Central California for the week ended 23 October 2004.

Iceburge Romaine Processed Other Lettuce
Total

Tons Railcar 0 0 0 0 0
Intermodal 1,350 360 0 0 1,710
Truck 33,895 11,140 80 3,275 48,390

Loads Railcar 0 0 0 0 0
(at Intermodal 59 16 0 0 74
(23 tons) Truck 1,474 484 3 142 2,104

Market Railcar 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
Share Intermodal 3.8% 3.1% 0.0% 0.0% 3.4%
Truck 96.2% 96.9% 100.0% 100.0% 96.6%

The USDA reports no railcar loadings and minimal TOFC loadings. A lot of this business belongs on the rail. But the railroads are no longer structured to do "retail". (An excellent westbound haul would be broiler chickens which tend to be produced in the southeast. There are never, ever going to be zero empty miles on the equipment.)

This buiness was on the rail. It was diverted by Federal economic regulations which prohibited the railroads from responding to market conditions while placing no such restrictions on trucking. Truck movement of fresh fruits and vegetables was never subject to economic regulation. Rail movement of fresh fruits and vegetables was strangled by such regulation. Eventually the expertise and structure to handle FF&V disapeared from the rail industry and they would be very difficult to rebuild.

The way to get this back is to market intermodal service to perisiable truckers like Stevens Transport.
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Posted by nslakediv on Thursday, October 28, 2004 8:42 AM
steel in refers, I used to haul refers to Baltimore markets and reload in Baltimore with rolls of wire that needed to be kept @ 70 degrees constant to prevent rusting back to Detroit. Didnt UP try roadrailer (ICE) with CSX and lasted like 2 weeks. I thought they had backhaul out of NYC area of cosmetics to return to west coast. Still see the ICE roadrailers come thru once in a while on TOFC( I'm on the B&O thru Ohio)
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Posted by Junctionfan on Thursday, October 28, 2004 8:55 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by nslakediv

steel in refers, I used to haul refers to Baltimore markets and reload in Baltimore with rolls of wire that needed to be kept @ 70 degrees constant to prevent rusting back to Detroit. Didnt UP try roadrailer (ICE) with CSX and lasted like 2 weeks. I thought they had backhaul out of NYC area of cosmetics to return to west coast. Still see the ICE roadrailers come thru once in a while on TOFC( I'm on the B&O thru Ohio)


I believe Ice Cold Express was a BNSF subsidiary that ran between Los Angelas to Chicago (BNSF) and than Chicago to Little Ferry (CSX). I saw them on a CSX UPS train recently.
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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 28, 2004 3:46 PM
Triple Crown behaves like a truck company in its relations with customers.
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Posted by ericsp on Thursday, October 28, 2004 11:06 PM
Don't look for UP to add any trains anytime soon, especially fast ones.

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Posted by ericsp on Friday, November 12, 2004 1:35 AM
I finally got around to buying the December issue and reading the article. There is something in there on the current operations that does not make sense. On page 42 the author says "The railroad [UP] already has a minor perishable presence, handling heavier crops like carrots and onions out of the valley through a combination of transload service (trucking crops over to Pacheco Pass to Central Valley ramps, as Santa Fe had done years before) and some direct carloads." The only intermodal terminal UP has in the Central Valley is at Lathrop. SP had one in Fresno, however, UP closed it a few years ago (ironically, they now use that area to clean, inspect, and repair reefers). Lathrop is further from Salinas than Oakland is. I know that the congestion is worst in the Bay Area than in the Central Valley, however, would that be a reason for UP to load the trailers at Lathrop instead of Oakland? Is Oakland operating a capacity?

As a side note, Highway 152 (the route over Pachaco Pass) is now two lane in each direction, if I remember correctly (it has been a few years since I have been over there).

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, November 12, 2004 4:04 AM
I stil think the idea makes sense.
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, November 12, 2004 8:12 PM
I have never seen a roadrailer reefer. Do they exist? Are they planning to build some?
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Posted by ericsp on Friday, November 12, 2004 9:17 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by tabiery

I have never seen a roadrailer reefer. Do they exist? Are they planning to build some?
tom


http://www.wabashnational.com/products/roadrailer/reefer_railer.htm

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Posted by ericsp on Friday, November 12, 2004 9:24 PM
Here are some links of interest.

http://www.uprr.com/customers/ag-prod/exlane/index.shtml
http://www.uprr.com/customers/ag-prod/exlane/rates.shtml
http://www.csxt.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=agriculture.programs

http://www.uprr.com/customers/ag-prod/index.shtml
http://www.csxt.com/?fuseaction=agriculture.overview
http://www.bnsf.com/business/agcom/aghome/index.html

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Posted by ericsp on Friday, November 12, 2004 9:27 PM
QUOTE: That's correct -- UP has a TOFC/COFC facility on French Camp Road in Lathrop. They do have a terminal in Fresno, too, a "paper ramp" limited to COFC that self-drays to and from Lathrop.

Lathrop might be a few more miles than Oakland, but it has a lot less intervening traffic and the ramp there is a lot less congested than Oakland, which is really a ramp for steamship containers. Highway 152 over the pass is partially four-lane.

Small ramps don't make economic sense; not because the ramp costs are so high but because the rail costs to serve the ramps are out of line -- not enough volume for dedicated trains.

The important part of that quote is the fact that the volume is minor, not the location. The shippers are using the truckers for base load and the railroad for any overage, such as when market prices are especially attractive and they want to bump up their shipment rate temporarily, or when field production rates are especially high and if they don't move it, it rots in the field. That situation makes it very difficult for the railroad to have the volume and predictibility it needs to generate the economy of scale it needs to make the business profitable. Ironically, reefer truckers have trouble making money as well; the production fluctuates so much that they can't get enough consistency, either. Many of the recent bankruptcies in trucking have been some of the larger specialized reefer carriers such as Artic Express and *** Simon Trucking.


Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding. It was sending the trailers to Lathrop instead of Oakland is what did not make sense, unless the answers to my questions in that post were yes.

In your opinion, would UP send these trucks to Oakland if it was not near capacity, or would the traffic in the Bay Area still cause them to go to Lathrop?

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, November 13, 2004 12:33 AM
Ironic, I think, that the RRs can no longer garner the lettuce business, in light of the claims that iceberg head lettuce was developed/popularized by/with SP so it would withstand the rail haul where other varieties of lettuce would not.
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Posted by greyhounds on Saturday, November 13, 2004 10:00 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by tabiery

I have never seen a roadrailer reefer. Do they exist? Are they planning to build some?
tom


A few years ago BNSF bought a bunch of 'em. About 400 I think. They tried to establi***he "Ice Cold Express" hauling California produce in dedicated RoadRailer trains. The CN and CSX established connecting RoadRailer trains to eastern Canada and the US East Coast. Clipper Exxpress and Alliance Shippers bought another 100 or so "ReeferRailers" between them.

Basically, the whole concept produced some great pictures of RoadRailer trains going by semaphores on the Raton Pass route and red ink on the books.

RoadRailers and similar technolgies do have a tremendous potential for the development of the perishable business. The can serve locations such as Salinas directly by rail and avoid the high cost of trucking to a distant rail terminal. They require very little terminal investment. This allows the rail/road transfer operation to be located close to the point of origin.

I guess BNSF didn't quite get this part - they tried to originate the eastbound trains at Los Angeles. No one grows produce in Los Angeles. The empty trailers had to be trucked A LONG WAY to the fields and back with the loads. This drove the cost through the roof and doomed the trains from the start.

While in any event BNSF was going to terminate the westbound loads in the LA area, they needed to do two things for the eastbound produce:

1) Reposition the empty RoadRailers into the produce growing areas by train from LA

2) Move the RoadRailer equipment in the same consists as other intermodal loads. This would have allowed daily service which is important for perishables.

As it was, they only were able to operate the dedicated RoadRailer trains twich a week - which wasn't going to work either.

And this is not to mention all that Kansas Beef that those trains ran right by without stopping to pick up one load.
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Posted by rob_l on Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:53 PM
To put things in perspective:

From Oct, 1973 into the early 1980s, the RRs offered 6th morning delivery into Hunt's Point market in the Bronx and other important East Coast destinations. This service was available from all UP perishable loading points in WA, OR, ID and from all SP perishable loading points in California from Edison and King City north to Redding. And the traffic was handled under a guarantee of delivery on-time or your money back (albeit the guaranteed time was a day slower than the schedule). Throughout the 1960s and up to 1973, it was 7th morning delivery with a guarantee of no more than a day longer than that.

In the peak letttuce season (mid May until the end of June), two long trainloads of reefers (mostly lettuce loads), on the order of 160 - 200 carloads, would be generated out of Salinas on weeknights.

The current N. Cal - East Coast Express Lane service on UP - CSX (with mostly short-line origins) offers 9th morning delivery. With no gaurantee. I don't have data, but I believe reliability of delivery time is worse than it was back in the days of the 6th morning schedule.

Compared to years ago, the biggest changes are that operations of short lines and operation of the through train are not tightly coordinated to provide an overall sevice product. The through train does not depart Fresno until 7am the day after cars are loaded. Running time of the through train is significantly slower, with most of the slow-down from the Missouri River to the East Coast.

Whether carload or intermodal, this speed of service is far too slow and far too unreliable to garner a substantial share of fresh fruits and lettuce traffic. It is attractive for certain bulk vegetables with a long shelf life, e.g., potatoes, onions, carrots, when loaded in huge railcars that have much higher capacity than a truck. And that's primarily what they haul nowadays. Some progress was starting to be made on melons, they got some carloads of melons last summer, the first in more than a decade.

Responding to its capacity problems, UP raised the rates this year on EB perishable traffic. (I have to question the sanity of this move -- how much of the capacity problems have been on the Overland Route?) This further inhibits the perishable traffic growth.

I am of the opinion that carload offers substantial economies over truck and intermodal. Trucks are hard to beat, the low cost advantage of carload is important to exploit. UP now has a good-condition refrigerator carload fleet. As has been noted, there is WB meat and poultry business (especially going ot export) to be back-hauled in cars coming west that can return with the EB fruits and vegetables. That is a business that could make good money.

What they don't have is a competitive service product, enough staff in the field to make sure the service is delivered consistently, an in-the-field marketing force to grow the awareness among the shippers of the potential of rail and help them learn how to use rail, and a staff to manage distribution and efficient deployment of the car fleet (closely coupled to marketing efforts). (Remember when RRs had transportation departments?)

Best regards,

Rob L.
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Posted by ericsp on Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:43 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by rob_l

To put things in perspective:

From Oct, 1973 into the early 1980s, the RRs offered 6th morning delivery into Hunt's Point market in the Bronx and other important East Coast destinations. This service was available from all UP perishable loading points in WA, OR, ID and from all SP perishable loading points in California from Edison and King City north to Redding. And the traffic was handled under a guarantee of delivery on-time or your money back (albeit the guaranteed time was a day slower than the schedule). Throughout the 1960s and up to 1973, it was 7th morning delivery with a guarantee of no more than a day longer than that.

In the peak letttuce season (mid May until the end of June), two long trainloads of reefers (mostly lettuce loads), on the order of 160 - 200 carloads, would be generated out of Salinas on weeknights.

The current N. Cal - East Coast Express Lane service on UP - CSX (with mostly short-line origins) offers 9th morning delivery. With no gaurantee. I don't have data, but I believe reliability of delivery time is worse than it was back in the days of the 6th morning schedule.

Compared to years ago, the biggest changes are that operations of short lines and operation of the through train are not tightly coordinated to provide an overall sevice product. The through train does not depart Fresno until 7am the day after cars are loaded. Running time of the through train is significantly slower, with most of the slow-down from the Missouri River to the East Coast.

Whether carload or intermodal, this speed of service is far too slow and far too unreliable to garner a substantial share of fresh fruits and lettuce traffic. It is attractive for certain bulk vegetables with a long shelf life, e.g., potatoes, onions, carrots, when loaded in huge railcars that have much higher capacity than a truck. And that's primarily what they haul nowadays. Some progress was starting to be made on melons, they got some carloads of melons last summer, the first in more than a decade.

Responding to its capacity problems, UP raised the rates this year on EB perishable traffic. (I have to question the sanity of this move -- how much of the capacity problems have been on the Overland Route?) This further inhibits the perishable traffic growth.

I am of the opinion that carload offers substantial economies over truck and intermodal. Trucks are hard to beat, the low cost advantage of carload is important to exploit. UP now has a good-condition refrigerator carload fleet. As has been noted, there is WB meat and poultry business (especially going ot export) to be back-hauled in cars coming west that can return with the EB fruits and vegetables. That is a business that could make good money.

What they don't have is a competitive service product, enough staff in the field to make sure the service is delivered consistently, an in-the-field marketing force to grow the awareness among the shippers of the potential of rail and help them learn how to use rail, and a staff to manage distribution and efficient deployment of the car fleet (closely coupled to marketing efforts). (Remember when RRs had transportation departments?)

Best regards,

Rob L.

While it is not a full refund, there is a guarantee, if the shipper pays extra (http://www.uprr.com/customers/ag-prod/exlane/rates.shtml). It is a bit silly, as the car would have to be three days late to pay for the extra charge for the guarantee.

I don't know when the scheduled time out of Fresno is, however, the train usually leaves around 0830 (it used to be 0900). However, the crew shortages have taken a toll on this train too and an 0830 departure is not certain currently.

It does seem like the articles on UP congestion listed east of Roseville as one of the congested routes.

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Posted by ericsp on Saturday, November 13, 2004 9:25 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by rob_l

Some progress was starting to be made on melons, they got some carloads of melons last summer, the first in more than a decade.

Was this Pappas & Company?

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Posted by rob_l on Saturday, November 13, 2004 10:01 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

QUOTE: Originally posted by rob_l

Some progress was starting to be made on melons, they got some carloads of melons last summer, the first in more than a decade.

Was this Pappas & Company?


Don't know the shipper names, but in 2003 they got melon loads out of Firebaugh, Mendota and somewhere on the Cal Northern up around Woodland.

Don't know what if any they got this year.

Regards,

Rob L.

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