In a small town about an hour away from me, I saw a yield sign at a railroad crossing. The crossing has a cross buck, a round, yellow sign that says railroad crossing, and the yield sign. This is not on a main line. It's on a spur that connects a grain elevator operation with the DM&E in Hawarden Iowa. Granted, the yield sign is on a highway leaving town, and there's certainly not much railroad traffic at this crossing, but why a yield sign?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
The crossbuck and the yield sign each mean yield, but studies have found that a lot of drivers do not know the crossbuck means yield. So there is a trend to add a yield sign to the crossbuck at grade crossings even though it is technically redundant.
I won
Euclid The crossbuck and the yield sign each mean yield, but studies have found that a lot of drivers do not know the crossbuck means yield.
The crossbuck and the yield sign each mean yield, but studies have found that a lot of drivers do not know the crossbuck means yield.
Speed limit signs are mostly considered merely a suggestion.
I disagree with the assumption that adding a yield sign to a crossbuck makes a crossing safer. I think the assumption flows from asking the wrong question. While many drivers may not know that a crossbuck means the same thing as a yield sign, I think it is likely that most do know what the crossbuck means. They understand the fundamental concept of yield that is conveyed by the crossbuck as it pertains to trains at grade crossings.
I believe that the reason many drivers do not understand that the crossbuck means the same thing as a yield sign is NOT that they fail to understand the meaning of the crossbuck. It is because they fail to understand the meaning of the yield sign. The yield sign is probably the most misunderstood sign of all. Drivers often either treat it like a merge sign or a stop sign that is okay to run.
In other words, the yield sign tends to convey a message that the way ahead is less restrictive than it appears. A yield sign is sort of a “green light” in places that look like they might need a stop sign. So a yield sign tells drivers that it is okay to compromise their natural sense of caution.
I don't think it goes as far as what a driver thinks. Most drivers don't think: they have their minds pre-programmed to react to certain signs like STOP or YIELD, and don't even see the crossbucks. It's similar to what many motorcycle and bicycle riders will tell you: it's as if they don't exist.
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
I tend to agree that if a crossbuck means (at least in theory) "stop look and listen" that a yield sign seems to diminish that by suggesting "go ahead if it looks OK." But the yield sign does suggest it is up to YOU to yield, not the other guy.
I think it is correct that more drivers know what a yield sign means than know what a crossbuck stands for. They think it just means this is a railroad crossing and is railroad property, not that you are being told to stop and yield the right of way.
Maybe even more to the point, in the event a railroad lawyer is arguing to a jury, those lawyers may have told the railroad they'd have a better argument to the "average" jury member if they said "there was a yield sign" than if all they could say was "there was a cross buck." Remember that the plaintiff's lawyer is likely to argue to that same jury that the railroad should have stopped at the crossing, or could have stopped but didn't, and that sort of thing. The people who know those arguments are bogus are routinely excluded from jury duty ....Dave Nelson
For many years now, on a county by county basis, cross buck only public crossings have had yield or stop signs added to the signs. It depends on the county as to which sign (stop or yield) is used and seems to apply to crossings where the counties have jurisdiction, outside of incorporated towns and cities.
While out railfanning once many years ago, I was at one such crossing equipped with cross bucks and stop signs. It was on a gravel crossing on (at that time) a lightly used line, the tracks crossing diagonally at about a 45 degree angle. (That line back then was 1 train, out and back round trip, about once every few weeks or longer. Since then it has gone to 1 or 2 round trip trains daily.) There wasn't a train that day, I was just out looking for evidence of some rumored work that had been done. A local Co-Op/farm supply truck, placarded for various hazardous materials it might transport for delivery, approached the crossing. Drove right on through, ignoring the regulation stop sign posted there. Slowed down for the crossing itself, but not to look to see if there was a train coming.
To me that illustrates that when tracks are involved, most drivers don't expect a train to be approaching. Or that they will hear or see one, without actually turning their head from one side to the other, in time to stop. Even if they don't bother to slow down from the allowable road speed. They don't give the sign the same respect at a railroad crossing as they would if it were at a road intersection.
Jeff
Murphy Siding ... but why a yield sign?
... but why a yield sign?
From the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices 2009 edition:
The meaning of a Crossbuck Assembly that includes a YIELD sign is that a road user approaching the grade crossing needs to be prepared to decelerate, and when necessary, yield the right-of-way to any rail traffic that might be occupying the crossing or might be approaching and in such close proximity to the crossing that it would be unsafe for the road user to cross.
At least that's the rationale of the FHWA.
ChuckCobleigh Murphy Siding ... but why a yield sign? From the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices 2009 edition: The meaning of a Crossbuck Assembly that includes a YIELD sign is that a road user approaching the grade crossing needs to be prepared to decelerate, and when necessary, yield the right-of-way to any rail traffic that might be occupying the crossing or might be approaching and in such close proximity to the crossing that it would be unsafe for the road user to cross. At least that's the rationale of the FHWA.
Interestingly, that in blue is also the meaning of a crossbuck assembly that does not include a yield sign.
The “yield” concept for highway traffic is absolutely correct for a passive grade crossing. Therefore the yield meaning has been assigned to the crossbuck. Most references state that a crossbuck is equivalent in meaning to a yield sign.
However, I can see the point that drivers might not understand the crossbuck meaning beyond just designating a place where the tracks cross the road. If anything were needed to elaborate on that message, it would be a direct warning of the danger.
It is not the railroads who have conducted these driver surveys. It is the bureaucracy known as the MUTCD, or Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices, which is part of the USDOT. They are the authority that has determined that many drivers do not know that a crossbuck means yield. From that revelation, it would naturally follow that adding a yield sign would solve that problem because a yield sign says, “YIELD.” So there is no chance that a driver could not realize that a yield sign means yield. That is the reasoning of the MUTCD.
However, the yield sign is probably the most misunderstood and abused sign of all, particularly in the confusion between the meaning of YIELD and MERGE. I saw a TV news piece where a highway patrol officer was scolding the public for stopping on the entrance ramps to Hwy. 100 west of Minneapolis. Yet the entrance to the highway had big red YIELD signs, and the highway had fast moving traffic with minimum spacing between cars. The ramp was on a cloverleaf with no way to accelerate to match highway speed. Entering the highway required abruptly entering the traffic with no ability to merge into it after accelerating to match highway speed. Therefore stopping on the entrance ramp was the proper thing to do if cars were approaching on the highway.
Obviously, this highway cop was confusing the meaning of yield and merge simply because Hwy. 100 looks like a freeway where merge signs are the normal entrance control.
Another problem with yield is that it simply means “give way.” But it does not specify how far ahead of the priority vehicle the “give way” zone extends. So a yield sign at a grade crossing might suggest that it is okay for drivers to cut it close as long as they don’t get hit. Then this gets into the question of how close you can yield without it being careless or reckless driving.
I will never look at a yield sign the same way again.....
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
The following information comes from the Texas Drivers License Handbook:
Railroad Crossing :
This sign means you are within a few hundred feet of a railroad crossing. Slow down and be prepared to stop. If you see a train coming, STOP. Never try to beat a train.
Railroad Cross Buck:
Railroad Cross Buck signs are posted at every railroad, highway, road, or street grade crossing and shows the location. If more than one track is to be crossed, the sign will show the number of tracks. Always slow down, look, listen, and be prepared to yield the right-of-way to an approaching train.
Yield:
This signs tells you the road you are on joins with another road ahead. You should slow down or stop if necessary so you can yield the right-of-way to vehicles on the other road.
Bearing in mind that the description of "YIELD" here describes a road intersection....the concept as it applies to railroads is also fairly clear.
http://driving-tests.org/texas/texas-drivers-handbook-online/
Murphy Siding Would you think then, that if you run into the train, you'll get a ticket for failure to yield right of way?
Would you think then, that if you run into the train, you'll get a ticket for failure to yield right of way?
Maybe. If they found enough of you to give the ticket to.
Quote from the Wisconsin DOT:
“As you approach, look and listen for an approaching train. The crossbuck sign means the same as a yield sign, which means that if a train is approaching you must yield and let the train pass. A recently enacted state law will require that a YIELD sign be placed below the crossbuck sign at crossings that do not have stop signs or red flashing light signals. This is being done to further emphasize that a crossbuck sign means that you must yield to trains.”
Euclid “As you approach, look and listen for an approaching train. The crossbuck sign means the same as a yield sign, which means that if a train is approaching you must yield and let the train pass.
“As you approach, look and listen for an approaching train. The crossbuck sign means the same as a yield sign, which means that if a train is approaching you must yield and let the train pass.
Wouldn't it be good if there were a questionnaire at license renewal that required 5 questions to be answered correctly. The above could be one of those questions.
If it is necessary to add a yield sign to the crossbuck for non-signalized crossings, why isn’t it also necessary to add a yield sign to the crossbuck for signalized crossings?
Euclid If it is necessary to add a yield sign to the crossbuck for non-signalized crossings, why isn’t it also necessary to add a yield sign to the crossbuck for signalized crossings?
Arizona Traffic Law A person approaching a railroad grade crossing shall stop within 50 feet but not less than 15 feet from the nearest rail of the railroad and may not proceed if a clearly visible electric or mechanical signal device gives warning of the immediate approach of a train, a crossing gate is lowered or a human flagman gives or continues to give a signal of the approach or passage of a train, or a train approaching within approximately 1500 feet of the highway crossing emits a signal audible, an approaching train is plainly visible and is in hazardous proximity to the crossing, or any other unsafe conditions exist.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Then why is a crossbuck necessary at a signalized crossing?
EuclidThen why is a crossbuck necessary at a signalized crossing?
Why not?
Euclid Then why is a crossbuck necessary at a signalized crossing?
(EDIT: Thanx OM for catching my sleep deprived slip - I wish the man was still with us.......Still, the violators think those signs are for other people and not for them. IMHO The law should be that if you tangle with a train and are found at fault, your driving privileges (not rights!) are surrendered. Start the drivers training over again to correct a lethal deficiency.)
tree68 EuclidThen why is a crossbuck necessary at a signalized crossing? Why not?
Why not? Because without an accompanying yield sign, a crossbuck is not well enough understood. But beyond that, if, as you say, you don't need a yield sign at a signalized crossing because the signals convey the controlling message, then why do you need a crossbuck to convey a yield message?
Actually, the crossbuck is an essential component of a signalized crossing because drivers are supposed to yield at signalized crossings even when the signals are un-activated. This is a precaution against the possibility of a failure to activate as a train approaches.
Therefore, since the crossbuck is necessary at a signalized crossing why would it not be necessary to add a yield sign to clarify the crossbuck message just as it is necessary to do so at a non-signalized crossing?
EuclidTherefore, since the crossbuck is necessary at a signalized crossing why would it not be necessary to add a yield sign to clarify the crossbuck message just as it is necessary to do so at a non-signalized crossing?
Or add some additional signage to reinforce the yield sign that's qualifying the crossbuck which backs up the signal lights which...
Why not just use one simple sign (and some cheap enabling technology) that cuts to the chase with signage more likely to 'motivate' the average motorist...
... or figure out a more effective active crossing method with all the 'right' semantics...
Works for me!
23 17 46 11
Overmod EuclidTherefore, since the crossbuck is necessary at a signalized crossing why would it not be necessary to add a yield sign to clarify the crossbuck message just as it is necessary to do so at a non-signalized crossing? Or add some additional signage to reinforce the yield sign that's qualifying the crossbuck which backs up the signal lights which... Why not just use one simple sign (and some cheap enabling technology) that cuts to the chase with signage more likely to 'motivate' the average motorist... ... or figure out a more effective active crossing method with all the 'right' semantics...
Looks like an effective and low-cost improvement. Perhaps more vivid, catchy graphics, fewer words, somewhat akin to the computer-generated simulation above?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Adding yield signs to passive (non-signalized) crossings is fascinating to me. This is very widespread, and will probably become universal practice.
I can’t think of any other case where a road sign has been deemed to be so ambiguous that it requires another sign next to it to explain the ambiguity.
My only problem with the re-signage of RR grade crossings is that it replaced all the old nostalgic signage.
At the time all the signage was being updated around here, I was in the process of making a sign for my Garden RR like I remembered seeing as a kid and wanted to verify the font and layout of the sign. I was told of places where there might still be the old signage on various streets and highways, but by the time I got to them, they had all been replaced and I could not get a photo of what I wanted. A web search was not fruitful either.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
This issue of the crossbuck being perceived to simply mark the location of a railroad without explaining what a driver should do has been addressed before this latest idea using the yield sign. The earlier message telling drivers what to do was the phrase, “LOOK OUT FOR THE CARS.” This message often accompanied the crossbuck just as the yield sign does today.
But in the still earlier times, LOOK OUT FOR THE CARS was used without the crossbuck, apparently before the crossbuck had been invented. Sometimes the phrase, “RAILROAD CROSSING” was used in the earlier times as well, often presented as a horizontal signboard with both words on one line
Likewise, the phrase, LOOK OUT FOR THE CARS was often presented as a horizontal signboard with all words on one line, and sometimes the signs were quite large, for example, a foot high and 12 feet long.
Sometimes both phrases were combined in a sign.
Today the phrase, LOOK OUT FOR THE CARS seems odd because the greater threat would seem to be the approaching locomotive rather than the trailing cars. Indeed, there was a minor adoption of the phrase LOOK OUT FOR THE LOCOMOTIVE as an apparent correction of the perceived mistake of warning driver to look out for the cars.
But the real explanation is that the term “The Cars” was an alternate term for “The Train” in the 1800s. So LOOK OUT FOR THE CARS meant look out for an approaching train so as not to get struck by it.
http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2013/04/streets-roads-and-all-that-part-3.html
EuclidThis issue of the crossbuck being perceived to simply mark the location of a railroad without explaining what a driver should do has been addressed before this latest idea using the yield sign.
There are dozens of signs along our roads that indicate a situation without explaining how to deal with it.
Take a four-way (or "all-way) intersection with stop signs. Why are there no instructions posted as to who can go first if two cars arrive at the same time?
Or a "road narrows" sign that is just a symbol. No instructions there, either.
Or the "school bus stop" signs. In some states you have to stop regardless for a stopped bus. In others, you can pass under certain circumstances. None of that is spelled out with the sign.
So how do you know this stuff? It's in the V&T laws, driver handbooks, and very likely on the written test you take to get your license.
And so it is with the crossbuck.
I understand your point. The crossbuck is definitely explained in the rule books. So I do not know why they feel that a yield sign must be added just because drivers do not realize that a crossbuck means yield. It is the responsibility of drivers to know what a crossbuck means. And as I said earlier, I think that adding the yield sign to a crossbuck is wrongheaded for other reasons as well.
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