wanswheel https://www.google.com/maps/@25.793371,-80.192589,17z .
https://www.google.com/maps/@25.793371,-80.192589,17z
.
A look at the map shows that this route will be for both AAF and intermodal traffic to the sea port. It will be double tracked (CTC) in the future to the AAF Miami terminal.
Paul of Covington: You would be surprised where tagging takes place. I used to think it was under the cover of darkness. Its not. Go to you tube and watch videos of vandals defacing railroad property anywhere and everywhere. Believe it or not, despite this being a crime and destruction of public property its there for all to see.
I recently watched a BNSF reefer being tagged on Youtube. It was daytime on a visable siding with a stream of automobiles going by on an adjacent street. The fact it is done with so little concern for being apprehended makes it all the more maddening.
Sorry to redirect this thread but when somebody is hassled for walking on the right of way and just down the way an 89' autorack can be literally covered top to bottom and side to side with spray paint it just ain't right to be preaching the ills of trespassing.
Jim Norton
Huntsville, AL
I really don't understand why some of you are claiming the RRs do not arrest the vandal tagger... where do you get that stupid notion?
Sure, you see media coverage of the arrests of railfans, the casual trespasser or the child on the rails. But that is because they are doing their trespass in an area where the RR police see them the most often. Ask any RR police officer or former officer and they say they would arrest any trespasser, regardless of why they were trespassing... some might get a lecture and released without formal charges, but those that only get a lecture would be the casual trespasser, not the vandal.
The vandal gets away with it because they hide from the police, they do their ignorant deeds at night on property that is not patrolled by the RRs, they do their vandalism in areas where it would be hard to detect them.
THINK for a while about where RR cars are stored when not in motion. Sure, some are stored in active yards where there are employees that can watch for trespassers, but many are stored on sidings in out-of-the-way places where it would be very fiscally irresponsible to hire someone to sit and watch the cars so no idiot (sorry Mookie, they are "IDIOTS" in any sense of the word) can access them. How much would it cost to fence in all the RR tracks... with a fence that is impenetrable by the idiot intent on committing vandalism? (The Secret service cannot even protect the Whitehouse!)
Besides, many cars are left alone on property that does not belong to the RR and that area is not patrolled by the owner of that property. It has been said that some graffiti is done by the employees of those companies that have RR cars on their property, do ya think they're gonna arrest themselves!
Now, THINK about the number of all trespassers that do not get arrested or even accosted by the RR police. How many hunters wander down RR tracks seeking game and nobody even sees them? How many joggers use RR ROW for their morning exercise and don't get caught? How many children cross tracks at other than sanctioned places and don't get hassled by anybody?
I really cannot count how many of the above their might be, but I would wager that the number of unapprehended casual trespassers is 1000's of times more than unapprehended vandals.
I say that those that are apprehended are just so stupid that they do their idiocy where they CAN be apprehended. I hate to say this, but maybe the idiot vandal is a wee bit smarter than some of the casual trespassers and that is why they don't get caught as often.
Gheesh, how can you think that the RRs give vandals a bye? Now that is approaching the same level of idiocy as the casual trespasser.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Now that this thread has become a continuation of the anti-graffiti one of a few weeks ago...
I don't know how much graffiti is done in active yards, but I'm sure it is very little, and pretty sure it is close to zero percent on active mainlines like the FEC line, so if the RR police apprehend very few graffiti artists, it's most likely because there aren't many there.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
jimnorton Mac: In other terms, news worthyness aside........All trespassers are trespassers. And, all trespassers are subject to loss of life or limb. I think we all can all agree on this. However, there is one demographic of trespassers who inflicts untold property damage, costs the railroads money, compromises operations (i.e. reporting marks) and effects safety (i,e, reflective striping). It ain't the joggers, the pedestrians nor the photographers! Psssst,,,,,,its the one many of you think is harmless and not worth apprehending......(the vandal.) Here is my rub. By excluding the vandal from trespassing concerns the railroads appear to be doing an admirable job of keeping future brides, fitness nuts and shutterbugs off the property. But to acknowledge that the same property is being over ran by a legion of spray paint toting armies would be an admission of epic failure. The hypocrisy on behalf of the industry is staggering. Ignore the trespasser which actually costs the company money while pursuing the ones which don't. Hmmmmmm.
Mac:
In other terms, news worthyness aside........All trespassers are trespassers. And, all trespassers are subject to loss of life or limb. I think we all can all agree on this.
However, there is one demographic of trespassers who inflicts untold property damage, costs the railroads money, compromises operations (i.e. reporting marks) and effects safety (i,e, reflective striping). It ain't the joggers, the pedestrians nor the photographers! Psssst,,,,,,its the one many of you think is harmless and not worth apprehending......(the vandal.)
Here is my rub. By excluding the vandal from trespassing concerns the railroads appear to be doing an admirable job of keeping future brides, fitness nuts and shutterbugs off the property. But to acknowledge that the same property is being over ran by a legion of spray paint toting armies would be an admission of epic failure.
The hypocrisy on behalf of the industry is staggering. Ignore the trespasser which actually costs the company money while pursuing the ones which don't. Hmmmmmm.
Maybe if there where more joggers, photographers, and pedestrians that safely are near RR property (or on if they don't pass no trespassing signs and stay a safe distance away from the tracks), than they could help the RR by contacting the RR or local police when they see vandals. That would make everyone happy, except te broke vandals who would be cleaning graffiti off of rolling stock and structures.
17th Street dead-ends at the track. It seems pedestrians need to walk up to 19th or down to 14th to cross the FEC track without trespassing, and be glad it's not raining.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article2143126.html
I've never been on a railroad police force, but I suspect that if I saw two trespassers on railroad property, one standing beside a standing freight car and tagging it with a spray can, and the other standing on a bridge within the gauge of an active track, then I would choose to go after the guy on the bridge. But what do I know? The fact that taggers get away with it (probably because they ply their trade in quiet, out of the way places where their "canvas" is unlikely to move) does not in any way imply, infer, denote, connote, or state in any way that the tagger's actions are condoned by anyone except the tagger himself.
Can we move on?
Tom
jimnorton Which trespassers make news regularly? 5) The graffiti vandal? - No. Can't recall any editorials or news. Can't recall any industry initiatives, Can't recall anything except an article in Trains ten years ago which could have come down harder. I stand on my statement that this type of trespasser is given a pass. In the eyes of the industry and rail press he does not exist. That is the disconnect.
Which trespassers make news regularly?
5) The graffiti vandal? - No. Can't recall any editorials or news. Can't recall any industry initiatives, Can't recall anything except an article in Trains ten years ago which could have come down harder.
I stand on my statement that this type of trespasser is given a pass. In the eyes of the industry and rail press he does not exist. That is the disconnect.
The news has nothing, zero, zip, nada to do with how RR police deal with tresspassers. You can not correctly infer anything from the news or lack of it.
Mac
Fumes?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
1) Pedestrians? - Yes. Numerous news stories nationwide. Industry sponsored campaigns.
2) Railfan photographers? - Yes. To the point where civil rights and constitutionality are questioned. Numerous news stories and editorials. "Seasoned" railroaders turning in railfans as "terrorists."
3) Joggers? - Yes. See Pedestrians
4) Professional photographers? - Yes. The current rage. Numerous editorials and calls from the industry . Prom goers, engaged couples and pretty girls beware!
jimnorton This is unbelievable. Why we are at it...... There is a gigantic disconnect in who is responsible for their trespassing and those who are not. The vandal has free access to rails nationwide.....the pedestrian, jogger and photographer does not. My defense would be discrimination as well. However, I would state that as a pedestrian along the FEC I was an easy target for harrasement. Then, I would request the same immunity the FEC graffiti tagger receives shielding him from any harrasment (for that matter even being approached much less arrested!) There is the case for discrimination.
This is unbelievable. Why we are at it......
There is a gigantic disconnect in who is responsible for their trespassing and those who are not. The vandal has free access to rails nationwide.....the pedestrian, jogger and photographer does not.
My defense would be discrimination as well. However, I would state that as a pedestrian along the FEC I was an easy target for harrasement. Then, I would request the same immunity the FEC graffiti tagger receives shielding him from any harrasment (for that matter even being approached much less arrested!)
There is the case for discrimination.
This post displays a collosal ignorance of trespassing on railroad property.
First, anyone who is not an employee on duty or who is using a public crossing or private crossing covered by an agreement is a trespasser.
Pedestrians on railroad property are a subset of tresspassers, photographers on railroad property are another subset, graffitti artists on railroad property are another subset. To suggest, as this post does, that graffitti artists get a pass from railroad police is simply not so. From the railroad's perspective one is as bad as another and the officer will tend to treat them all alike, generally tell them to get off the property unless it is in a sensative or high risk area in which case they are likely to be cited or run in as dictated by company policy and local law. If the tresspasser smarts off or attacks the cop, they may well be taken to jail, but they caused their own problem, and it was their behavior rather than the presence of absence of spray paint in their possessiion that got them in the clink.
The problem with tresspassing is that it is economically impossible to stop regardless of the "purpose" of the tresspasser.
tree68 I'm betting that if FEC put up a fence they wouldn't be able to finish it because it would get torn down as fast as they put it up...
I'm betting that if FEC put up a fence they wouldn't be able to finish it because it would get torn down as fast as they put it up...
It would seem that the 'natural defense' in this area would be a 'Fence" to funnel the oot traffic to either a pedestrian overpass or an underpass...But those 'improvement for safety' would cost lots of $$$$.
The railroad is defended by the ordinances against trespass, and the Community most likely does not see a problem to invest in . Sort of a "Mexican Stand-off" til some of the locals are maimed or killed..Then it will all boil down to which entity will pay to sooth the Community's anger.
The lawyers will rush to sue, knowing that the odds are that the FEC will pay to settle before it goes to a trial. If this was Africa, the pay-off would be called 'gris-gris'...Everybody gets a little something.
Odds are, the trespass issue will not be resolved, and the FEC police will continue to write tickets, and get wacked in the news media for the currently popular pejorative of "Racist Practices." Maybe they need to speed the trains up, with concrete ties and CWR, it would most likely cut back on the folks crossing the railroad, until the older slower trespasser are eliminated by Darwin's Effect.
Cynical? You Betcha!
I guess I'm not most of us, I don't see who and where the real disconnect is. Please tell me.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
I am sure most see with who and where the real disconnect is, but it would make little difference.
23 17 46 11
jimnortonThere is a gigantic disconnect in who is responsible for their trespassing and those who are not. The vandal has free access to rails nationwide.....the pedestrian, jogger and photographer does not.
Well, you're dead wrong on that - everyone, pedestrians, joggers, photogs, taggers, has the same access to the rails. I can just as easily wander through a yard as any vandal. Some railfans do. Some get caught, some don't.
Since FEC is in the news right now - I'm sure that the railroad cops aren't targeting potential spray-can toting vandals, but they might catch one or two in the process. Besides, what vandal wants to hang out where there are only a few trains a day, and they are in motion? Hard to paint on a moving canvas...
And there's a huge difference between vandals and all the others. Vandals want to be places where people and activity aren't, while all the others (and especially photogs/railfans) want to be places where people and action are. Pedestrians, joggers, and photogs don't hide their actions, so they are easy picking. In fact, railfans might well ask permission before entering otherwise restricted areas, like yards.
Your abject hatred of graffiti appears to be bordering on an obsession. Pretty much all of us dislike it, but it is what it is, and we've been over that multiple times.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Couldn't pull up the story, but if the guy was standing within 5ft of the tracks or on the tracks, It is time to celebrate. The cops are doing their job and arresting those who caused dangerous conditions. Maybe this shall discourage the trespassers, they can make an example out of this guy.
The sad thing is that if the guy got hit, his family would sue the RR. It seems like these days the railroads just can't win in this sue happy culture especially with the people who are disconnected and clueless about RR.
MP173 mudchicken:Where does one find the DOT info for number of trains on a line segment?Ed http://safetydata.fra.dot.gov/OfficeofSafety/publicsite/crossing/crossing.aspx
mudchicken:Where does one find the DOT info for number of trains on a line segment?Ed
MC
After further research found the Overtown area is an area along the old FEC main to the downtown FEC station ( long gone ). Speculate that this at present has just a local that serves it from the Hialeah yard. However FEC wants to run some intermodals on the route to the Miami seaport terminal ( where cruise ships also tie up ). Tracks were once double track and once AAF starts slated to l be 2 MT CTC. The line will go to the new AAF terminal right in downtown ? NW 17th Street (runs east west ) probably crosses that line or may just dead ends at both sides of the tracks. May be why FEC is doing so much enforcement ?
Your 18 trains a day sounds like the main line from Jacksonville - Hialeah yard that runs east west parallel to NW 79th street and Miami metro. This line also is used to access the old main line from 79th street to what will be the new terminals. The last time there observation tends to confirm your traffic number. FEC 79th track was 2 MT right hand current of traffic ( may still be ). To add to problems on that line many FEC trains may get stopped when crossing the Tri-Rail 2 track CTC line at IRIS interlocking. Tri-Rail negotiated interlocking priority for their trains and several CSX freights to Homestead. Line previously owned by CSX (SAL). Those CSX freight locals also interchange to FEC south of the airport..
Confused Things may have changed ?
That's your standard response, though. It's always the railroad's fault.
Perhaps the newspaper got it right?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
The rail surface does not look like a heavily used line, more like a spur. So it seems probable that it is a stub of former mainline retained to service local customers. While the rail and ties might be better used elsewhere I'm sure the cost of changing them out would be uneconomic. My impression from the r-o-w is that originally there were multiple tracks.
mudchicken DOT Record for NW-17th Street shows closer to 18 Trains/day (2 switching)....Your something like 5 miles from Hialeah yard (which tells me something as to why you see special agents so active)
DOT Record for NW-17th Street shows closer to 18 Trains/day (2 switching)....Your something like 5 miles from Hialeah yard (which tells me something as to why you see special agents so active)
Removed due to additional information
...then again, the geographically challenged "news-worker" and friend of the activist ambulance chasers may be just a little off
Grandstanding. Is he gonna sue the judge when the charge is thrown out of court and gets further embarrassed? I thins PDN is on to something.
From the last line of article: "As for the 332 arrests made for crossing the tracks, officials said there is not a single case that ever went to trial."
Apparently the guy's evidence is that 179 of the arrests were black people, > the number of whites and Hispanics [332 - 179 = 153; PDN], in a neighborhood that's mostly black (per the comments).
Would be interesting to see the comparable numbers for trespasser injuries and fatalities in that area.
He also claims there's only 3 trains a week - but the accompanying photo of the tracks show concrete ties and what appears to be welded rail, which is not typical of a line with little traffic . . .
Just an agitator, mad because he was caught, I think = idiot !
- Paul North.
I seem to recall reading somewhere, probably in "Trains" several years ago that the FEC has been very tough on trespassers for the past several decades. Some labor troubles combined with sabotage back in the 60's or 70's had something to do with the policy.
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