Wanted -- Experiences with Light Rail Systems

[jockellis]

I rode Atlanta, GA's MARTA every day for eight months. I caught the bus a half block from my house, rode it to the rail station and took the train to the main station where I transferred to the east line. The train stopped at the state office building where I worked so I never had to go outside after catching the bus. On the way home, the driver would let me off in front of my home. I thought it was great, but now MARTA (which embarrassingly stands for Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta in local parlance) is hurt badly by being the only commuter rail system in the nation which receives no state funding. And it is beginning to show now that the economic slowdown has hurt funds. MARTA gets a one percent tax from Atlanta, Fulton County and DeKalb County while people from all over the metro area ride the trains, parking their cars in the lots of the outlying stations. All the posturing for bus rapid transit would be funny if it weren't for the studies showing our future traffic congestion will be worse and yet no leaders will stand behind rail for really adequate public transportation.
Jock Ellis
Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers

[daveklepper]

There are some light rail systems that allow express running, but of course the gates are controlled differently. Then there are some, like downtown Portland and the outer ends of the SF existing light rail system, where the vehicles bahave just like an ordinary streetcar, passing up stops where no one is boarding or leaving and obeying traffic signals just like a bus would. Boston is an interesting case and well worth visiting for any student of transportation. The Riverside line from downtown, "D" is PRW light rail all the way to the end. Mostly grade separated, but there may be some grade crossings. Definite stations with shelters and platforms. The B and C lines are in landscaped median strips in beautiful neighborhoods once they leave the subway. But grade crossings are unprotected and handled just like a streetcar with ordinary traffic signals,. not timed for the railcars the last time I was there. (This may be or possibly will be improved!) The A line no longer runs. Buses connecting to Kenmore station or an express bus on the Turnpike downtown. The E was cut back and is supposed to be re-extended and comes out of the subway to a rather unpretentious reservation (no landscaping) and then to genuine street running. Then there are the three "heavy" lines, all different in also interesting, with the "Blue" line having some caternary operation as well as third rail inn the subway or tunnel, most of the catenary portion being on the old right of way of the Boston Revere Beach and Lynn three-foot narrow gauge. Then at the south end of the heavy Red Line is the "High Speed Trolley" to Mattapan that uses 58 and 58 year old restored PCC cars in original color scheme in good condition runing on good track,. truly a fine operating museum of what "Light Rail" was like during WWII. Recommended even if the other rolling stock is not by any means the best in the USA.

[MP57313]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jchnhtfd
the biggest problem with light rail (and sometimes heavy rail rapid transit, but much less often!) is that sometimes the folks running them think like bus drivers, not like railroaders. <snip> These things are trains, if in a slightly different guise!

Info presented on a charter light rail trip a few years ago: One thing that is different about today's light-rail systems vs the lines in the old days is all the grade crossing control software. Evidently in today's systems there is a built-in delay for crossing signals to activate if they are just past a station. In other words, each light rail train MUST stop at the station or the grade crossing signals will not start up in time (at least this is true for the MTA LA-Long Beach line, and San Diego's lines). A light rail train cannot operate in 'express mode' where it bypasses some stations. {Does that mean they cannot 'dead head' back to the terminal?}

A few years ago the San Diego Union Tribune had an article about a fatal light rail-car collision. It was caused when a trainee operator, on a practice run, went through a station and pegged a car on the adjacent grade crossing. The car driver was killed; the trainee and supervisor were ok. The lights/gates had not activated.
MP

[dldance]

Capital Metro currently has freight operations on the line to be used for DMU's -- it is operated by a contractor as Austin Area Terminal RR. We will see if the powers that be listen more to their rail contractor or to their bus operations. I think the key to success here will be how well the bus and DMU operations integrate.

Thanks for all the informative comments.

dd

[jchnhtfd]

Mudchicken has a good point -- a very good point: the biggest problem with light rail (and sometimes heavy rail rapid transit, but much less often!) is that sometimes the folks running them think like bus drivers, not like railroaders. The systems with which I am acquainted (Boston, New York, Montreal) or just vaguely familiar with (Washington, Toronto) don't seem to have that problem -- but I know it has been a problem elsewhere.

These things are trains, if in a slightly different guise!

[mudchicken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP57313

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken
Denver's system, while I took part in it's construction, is of very limited use to me.

I've ridden this twice, once in the 90s and again a couple years ago, after it had been extended through Littleton. Not much happening on the joint line when I was there. The RTD is ok but runs nowhere near the offices I visit out in Aurora. Maybe TREX will change that? Was annoyed that the RTD leg to Union Station stops running early evening, so I did not ride that route (just missed last run).

Cross country: As a tourist I have ridden WashingtonDC's Metro (heavy rail). It's ok, but after 5pm on weekends much of DC becomes a ghost town and the freaks come out. Aggressive panfhandlers in some stations (stand at the top of the escalator, shaking a cup of coins in front of you) but as always I ignore them. But it's great for getting to the Smithsonian and avoiding parking fees. Some outer portions of the routes parallel rail lines. If it ever extends to Georgetown that would help the crowded roads there.

MP:

Line currently under construction (TREX) comes off the existing line at South Denver (I-25 & Broadway) and heads south on I-25 and then splits at the I-25/I-225 interchange near our office and does a slightly better job of going places that people go to. It is a contorted corkscrew and cannot be very high speed. We'll see what pans out.

While in LA, I dealt firsthand with Red Line, Blue Line, GreenLine and MetroLink. No crisis here like the Blue Line scaffolding and bridge deck cribbing falling down at El Segundo not far from LAX in 92-93 and shortly after that, the Century Fwy. 105/ Blue line fiasco. The freight railroaders there got really annoyed with the light rail folks until they got some real world OJT and quit being a safety threat to everybody.

MC[;)][;)][;)]
Wondering how long that will take here.

[tree68]

Used the Baltimore light rail once - BWI to the ballfield and return. Fast, convenient, economical. Fares on the honor system, but checked by transit cops. Don't know if they were getting the bang for the buck, but the system was being used.

[MP57313]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken
Denver's system, while I took part in it's construction, is of very limited use to me.

I've ridden this twice, once in the 90s and again a couple years ago, after it had been extended through Littleton. Not much happening on the joint line when I was there. The RTD is ok but runs nowhere near the offices I visit out in Aurora. Maybe TREX will change that? Was annoyed that the RTD leg to Union Station stops running early evening, so I did not ride that route (just missed last run).

Cross country: As a tourist I have ridden WashingtonDC's Metro (heavy rail). It's ok, but after 5pm on weekends much of DC becomes a ghost town and the freaks come out. Aggressive panfhandlers in some stations (stand at the top of the escalator, shaking a cup of coins in front of you) but as always I ignore them. But it's great for getting to the Smithsonian and avoiding parking fees. Some outer portions of the routes parallel rail lines. If it ever extends to Georgetown that would help the crowded roads there.

[Anonymous]

I use the TRE (DART and theT) from the West Irviing stop to go to either Fort Worth or Dallas mainly to go to events and for the once a month meeting in downtown Dallas. It is a heavy rail system, but it connects at Union Station in downtown Dallas to the light rail system. For a $2.25 cent one day pass, its much cheaper than driving these distances, much less paying to park downtown... This stop is two miles away.... Hopefully the light rail line planned for Irving is built just one mile away from my home, but that has yet been decided.....it could end up being two or three miles away.... A bus a block away serves this rail stop, it takes 7 minutes to reach it.....then its about 20 minutes to either downtowns,,,,Dallas or Fort Worth.....

[Anonymous]

I use light rail system everyday to go to work. I live in the Philadelphia area. Yes I feel safe.

[morseman]

when the Montreal Metro established a station three blocks from my home the valu of my home increased considerably. I used it for comuting daily. The rubbor tires I believe were filled with hydrogen and the system was paterned after the system in Paris. The brake shoes were made of hard wood, ash or oak & when braking suddenly you could smell the wood burning inside the cars. Needless to say this would often alarm the passengers.

[mudchicken]

DMU is not light rail in most cases....and is still in its infancy. Denver's system, while I took part in it's construction, is of very limited use to me. After the next phase goes into operation in 2006, that may change. Denver has an awful lot to learn still in both managing and operating its system. Unfortunately, bus people run the show here (totally clueless) and they shed any experienced design and technical railroad folks with the frequency of a revolving door. Their (RTD's) own attorneys are appalled at the lack of "institutional memory" [their term] and find themselves doing the same work two and three times to get to the proper solution. A classic managerial morass. The rail oriented folks they shed were good people and many are now team leaders for consultants. The bus people they kept need to be kept away from the trains, before they ruin a good idea. The anti- Fast-Tracks ballot initiative folks have surprisingly not jumped all over this, but again they are bus people and must be clueless.[}:)]

[bow]Smart move - DMU is going to get Austin a lot further than the rediculously expensive catenary ever will. If Austin really takes the trains to heart, than put up the catenary later. In the early stages of rail traffic, get all the bang for the buck that you can.

[dldance]

I am aware of the many distinctions between light rail and heavy rail systems. For example in San Fransico Bart is heavy rail, the L line is light rail, and the F line is trolley - but I am interested in experiences and observations for both. Thanks.

dd

[daveklepper]

Some systems mentioned are actually heavy rail, with Boston, Toronto, and Philadelphia both. Compare:

Heavy rail: generaly motorman/engineer/operator separated from the public. High platforms at level with car floors, generlaly 40-50 inches above rail height. Rarely if ever operates one-car trains, two being the absolute minimum, and ten or eleven being possible (New York Rush hours typical). Usually third rail, seldom overhead wire. Usually prepayment via pass readers and turnstiles, etc. and any on-board fare collection is by a conductor. Signalled and/or automatic train control or just signalled with automatic train stop. Trains stop at schedules stations without "flag stops." Usually train doors for employees to walk between cars. Usually completely grade separated, often in subways, and zero on-street running. Trend is to low-floor cars with much floor area and door bottoms some ten to fourteen inches above rail height. Overhead wire electric pick-up is standard. Often if no one is getting off or seen waiting to board, the stop will be passed, just like a bus. Some on-street running, even lanes shared with general traffic in certain situations, is possible but some systems do not have it. But nearly all systems have at least one grade crossing. One-car operation during light traffic periods is usual, although it may be a six-axle or eight-axle articulated or double articulated car. Front and sometimes the rear can be similar to a bus without any train door, one-piece windshields now being popular. Maximum train length is usually four or five cars at the most.

Denver and Salt Lake City have two of the most progressive light rail systems in the entire World and with the ride on Amtrak's CZ between them, what are you possibly waiting for?

Light rail: Motorman/operator often has the same duties as a bus driver (except steering but he/she sometimes does control facing switch points)

[Anonymous]

Vancouver, BC's ALRT, known as Sky-Train as much of it is elevated, is superb. It's fast, clean and comfortable. Much lighter than the big city subway systems, the technology has been utilized in Scarborough, Ont. and elsewhere. The conventional street railway type systems in Calgary and Edmonton looked good to me when I visited them a few years ago.

[MP57313]

Los Angeles (Redondo Beach/El Segundo): I occasionally use the MTA Green Line + free transfer bus to get from work to the airport. $1.25 Green Line vs. $8.00 for the airport shuttle. Minimal railfanning (passes near a UP-BNSF diamond in El Segundo). I started doing the Green Line trips after the boneheads at the shuttle service missed my pick-up time. It's reasonably safe and gets the job done, but I probably wouldn't do the reverse at night.

San Jose/Sunnyvale: Used the free bus transfer from the airport to the VTA line on occasion, in lieu of renting a car. Work location and hotel were reasonably close to a light rail stop. VTA seemed safe day or night. Might not do this on rainy days though, as there was a fair amount of walking (where my meeting locations were). The set-up was ok for me or other dedicated / cheap railfans, but Joe Public would likely not go for it. Sunnyvale not really set up for pedestrians (several places you walk at the side of the road -- no sidewalks). definitely saved money over renting a car, but railfan opportunities limited to Mountain View/CalTrain or other VTA-served sites.

As for the cost of the systems...they are expensive but they do provide an alternative to driving or riding city buses.

[oltmannd]

Used to use SEPTA subway-surface lines on bad weather days. It turned a 7 block "outside" walk from PATCO line into a 1 block walk. It was safe, comfortable and fairly quick. The new Kawasaki trolleys were nice vehicles - overall nicer than the PCCs.

Biggest drawback was I had to make two transfers. First from PATCO to SEPTA Market St line, then to subway surface line.

[dldance]

Thanks Jamie - my experiences with Boston and Toronto mirror yours. Haven't visited the others yet. I have also had good experience in San Francisco and Portland.

dd

[jchnhtfd]

Depends a little on what, exactly, you define as light rail...

Boston -- Green Line is certainly light rail (used to be PCCs, now a variety of light rail cars). Red, Blue, Orange are subway type equipment. Generally excellent. Does it save time and money? Oh yes indeed -- lots of it, especially at peak times. Convenient? When I worked in downtown Boston, very convenient; peripheral parking very good, downtown stops excellent, transfers (once you get used to them excellent), price is right. Comfortable? Well, it isn't a Lincoln Town Car Limousine, but it's comfortable except at extreme peak conditions, when you can get squashed. Plans to extend are generally very well received, even by notoriously NIMBY communities.

New York -- I suppose the subways can be defined as light rail. The city couldn't function without them, period. Full stop. No way. The system is safe (in spite of what you may have heard, New York is safe, as cities go), comfortable, easy to use (once you get the hang of it, again). Much money saved (taxi is the only other way to go, and they cost the earth and are driven by ex-Kamikaze pilots). Expansion tends to be hideously expensive, but is done when possible with no perceived backlash.

Montreal -- the Metro is a wonderful way to get around. It isn't as convenient as either Boston or New York, simply because the system is less dense, but it's rarely more than a few blocks to where you want to be. Very comfortable (unusual rubber tire on concrete 'track' design) and quiet. Quite safe. Saves time and money.

Toronto -- where the system runs, it's good, comfortable, and safe. Density is much too low, however; not convenient for a good many people.

Washington DC -- like Toronto, the density is a little low to be really convenient, and it doesn't seem to have the peripheral parking that Boston does, nor the superb connections to commuter rail that New York does. Otherwise, again, safe and comfortable.

I've rarely had a bad experience on any of those systems which I would say is related to the system. Both New York and Boston can get really truly crowded on occasion and, if you are not used to it, this can be a little scary. Boston occasionaly has had some equipment related delays, particularly on the Green Line (there was a time when they had a fleet of light rail cars -- the first generation after the PCCs -- which were a good bit less than reliable, but that seems to have been solved); New York, as I say, simply can't function without the subways, and so reliability is good. Scheduling is a matter of density; New York and Boston are both very good (Boston, however, stops in the early morning hours -- you can get stranded downtown if you don't watch the time). Montreal's scheduling is also good -- quite reasonable headways on trains. I'm not familiar enough with either Washington DC or Toronto to comment on schedules in those cities. Safety has two sides: equipment/operations -- no problems there in any of them; and personal -- all these cities are big big cities, and have the usual big city problems. A little bit of street sense and you're fine; fresh from the cornfields, and you can get into trouble. But you can get into trouble in New York just standing on a street corner, if you're dumb about it. Time and money? Depends some on the time of day. In the early morning hours in any city, you aren't going to save time on light rail. At rush hour, you are. Money is variable; parking downtown in any of the big cities can be horribly expensive, particularly if you want security for your vehicle. So you will definetly save money on all those systems...

this help?

[dldance]

I am interested in first hand experiences with using the many light rail systems in North America. Does using the system save you time or money? How convenient is it to your origin and destination? Do you feel comfortable and safe while traveling? How are plans to expand the system received? Etc.

Austin Texas is currently voting on establishing a DMU starter system. With all the hype being bantered back and forth among the various factions, I wnat to hear your experiences -- good and bad.

Please let me know the city/transit system your are refering to. Thanks.

dd