Unit trains, well this is a new one.

[wanswheel]

MidlandMike

This problem (from April) has now been addressed in the Auditor General's report (link cited in my last post.)  

That link seems to be a dud. I found the report, though, and it's a hoot. Dueling Bureaucrats.

http://www.delawareriverkeeper.org/resources/Reports/PA%20AG%20audit%20DEP072114.pdf

 

[MidlandMike]

wanswheel

Excerpts from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, April 3, 2014

Weak records cited on Pa. shale pollution

According to a 40-page brief, filed with the court in Harrisburg, it is the "practice" of state Department of Environmental Protection regulators not to issue a violation notice, fines or formal determinations of contamination where shale gas development companies reach private settlements with water well owners…

The brief used the deposition testimony to illustrate that private water supply users faced health risks without a legal requirement that DEP notify private water supply users of contamination affecting their water supplies. More than 3 million Pennsylvania residents rely on private well water for drinking and everyday use, according U.S. Census Bureau statistics cited in the brief.

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/marcellusshale/2014/04/03/Weak-records-cited-on-Pa-shale-pollution/stories/201404030183#ixzz3BvqKQbsP

This problem (from April) has now been addressed in the Auditor General's report (link cited in my last post.)  The DEP didn't issue a notice of violation if they achieved voluntary compliance.  It was an expedience to efficiently take care of the problem without having to go thru more formal procedures and possible delay at resolution.  Unfortunately it precluded some records being generated that would have publicly identified these sites so nearby residents would be aware of the contamination.  The Auditor General recommended the issuance of violation notices and publishing of records, which DEP will implement.

[wanswheel]

Excerpts from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, April 3, 2014

Weak records cited on Pa. shale pollution

According to a 40-page brief, filed with the court in Harrisburg, it is the "practice" of state Department of Environmental Protection regulators not to issue a violation notice, fines or formal determinations of contamination where shale gas development companies reach private settlements with water well owners…

The brief used the deposition testimony to illustrate that private water supply users faced health risks without a legal requirement that DEP notify private water supply users of contamination affecting their water supplies. More than 3 million Pennsylvania residents rely on private well water for drinking and everyday use, according U.S. Census Bureau statistics cited in the brief.

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/marcellusshale/2014/04/03/Weak-records-cited-on-Pa-shale-pollution/stories/201404030183#ixzz3BvqKQbsP

[dakotafred]

schlimm

dakotafred

Phoebe Vet

greyhounds

Probably fracking sand to be used in horizontal drilling to extract needed oil or natural gas.  Either under load or returning for more sand empty.

This whole horizontal drilling thing has created a boom.  For ordinary folks and the railroads.  A 20 year old with a high school education can make $80,000/year in the oil fields.  The railroads haul sand in and empties out.  They then haul oil out and empty tank cars in.  Can't beat it with a stick.  

And then the RRs can make more money hauling clean water in for the people who live near the gas wells.

 

Nice try, Phoebe, but first you've got to get Obama's EPA -- which has been trying as hard as it can -- to find water poisoning as a result of fracking. It hasn't been able to do so. The elementary fact: The fracking cocktail is injected deep into the ground, far below the acquifers and surface water from which most of us drink.

 

You'd need a very long straw -- and a strong impulse for self-destruction -- to hurt yourself. (Or maybe you only want to stampede public policy?) 

Nice try yourself.   Vindication for henry6 about how much contamination of drinking water fracking has caused in Pennsylvania.  He was right.  He just got a little too vociferous in his language, but his suspension was too harsh, in my opinion.

 http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/08/29/3477184/pennsylvania-fracking-water-contamination/

Uh, Schlimm, your "vindication" of henry 2 weeks later cannot be called up, at least not by me.

[MidlandMike]

schlimm

And good for YOU, too!!  So what is "political" about expressing realistic and serious concerns about fracking (which are born out in my posted link, BTW)?  There are several people on these forums (AFAIK, not you) who routinely spout their political opinions within their posts or in their signatures, but as long as they toe a corporatist line, I guess that doesn't count?

The link you provided was an admittedly political website.  You could have instead provided the link from the above which lead to the Wall Street Journal AP article.  That article also gave the other side an opportunity to comment.  

To put the report in context, the article says that about 240 water wells were impacted by oil and gas well drilling projects.  A check of Pennsylvania's web site states that "Over a million homeowners in Pennsylvania depend on private water supplies for their drinking water needs. In Pennsylvania, protection and maintenance of a private well is basically the responsibility of the homeowner. Private wells are typically safe, dependable sources of water if sited wisely and constructed properly; however, there are no statewide construction standards for those private water wells."  http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/topogeo/groundwater/gw_privwells/index.htm

Still, 240 wells is a problem.  The PA Auditor General's report 

http://www.auditorgen.state.pa.us/press-releases/auditor-general-depasquale-says-rapid-shale-gas-development-outpaced-dep%E2%80%99s-ability-to-oversee-industry-protect-water-quality

says that many of the problems were temporary, or were otherwise already fixed (my experience in my own state is that the oil company drills them a new properly constructed water well isolated from further contamination).  The Auditor General concludes that the state regulatory agency was overwhelmed by the shale gas boom, and he made a series of recommendations, that the regulatory agency is implementing.  The report did not get into analysis of the causes of the contaminations, but did mention mishandling of waste byproducts of the fracking process (rather than as a direct result of the underground fracking proceedure) (which is consistent with other reports such as EPA's Dimock study).  In my previous posts I have conceded that no industrial development happens without some impact on its location.

Please note that none of my reference links were political as the moderator has already warned us against such.  He also wanted us back on rail topics, which I thought was happening, until your recent posts.

[inch53]

And now back to the subject that started this debate… I live just off the CSX Vandalia line [StL-Indy] and see unit gondola trains bout every week or two come through loaded with pipe headed west n the empties headed back east 3 or 4 day later. CSX power is the norm, but have seen UP and BNSF at different times. inch

[schlimm]

Euclid

I hope Henry comes back and sheds a little light on this. 

As do I, but it may not happen.

[schlimm]

Norm48327

As much political spouting a Henry did, he's lucky he didn't get banned.

And that's MY opinion.

And good for YOU, too!!  So what is "political" about expressing realistic and serious concerns about fracking (which are born out in my posted link, BTW)?  There are several people on these forums (AFAIK, not you) who routinely spout their political opinions within their posts or in their signatures, but as long as they toe a corporatist line, I guess that doesn't count?

[Euclid]

I hope Henry comes back and sheds a little light on this. 

[Norm48327]

As much political spouting a Henry did, he's lucky he didn't get banned.

And that's MY opinion.

[schlimm]

dakotafred

Phoebe Vet

greyhounds

Probably fracking sand to be used in horizontal drilling to extract needed oil or natural gas.  Either under load or returning for more sand empty.

This whole horizontal drilling thing has created a boom.  For ordinary folks and the railroads.  A 20 year old with a high school education can make $80,000/year in the oil fields.  The railroads haul sand in and empties out.  They then haul oil out and empty tank cars in.  Can't beat it with a stick.  

And then the RRs can make more money hauling clean water in for the people who live near the gas wells.

 

Nice try, Phoebe, but first you've got to get Obama's EPA -- which has been trying as hard as it can -- to find water poisoning as a result of fracking. It hasn't been able to do so. The elementary fact: The fracking cocktail is injected deep into the ground, far below the acquifers and surface water from which most of us drink.

 

You'd need a very long straw -- and a strong impulse for self-destruction -- to hurt yourself. (Or maybe you only want to stampede public policy?) 

Nice try yourself.   Vindication for henry6 about how much contamination of drinking water fracking has caused in Pennsylvania.  He was right.  He just got a little too vociferous in his language, but his suspension was too harsh, in my opinion.

 http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/08/29/3477184/pennsylvania-fracking-water-contamination/

[chad s thomas]

Paul_D_North_Jr

chad s thomas

I don't know Missouri and don't pretend to.. but I remember years ago reading about a lead mine operation on a BN branch line that originated 40-50 car trains of lead ore in 50' hoppers. Mabee that is what you saw.  

Hey, welcome back, Chad ! 

Might this be the article ? 

"BN gets the lead out - Missouri's lead belt and its railroading"

by Woods, Randy, from Trains, April 1996, p. 56

(Trains' Magazine Index 'keywords': BN  commodity  division  lead ) 

- Paul North. 

Thanks Paul. Idon't have my colection with me at the moment, but I would say that's the one.Wasn't sure if it was a Trains or CTC Board article. Thanks

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

That April 1996 Trains article indicated that the lead mines didn't have too many years of production left - 15 to 20 at the then-present rate of extraction/ production, and depending on the quality of the vein (apparently called a "trend" down there). . 

From the article: "The Lead Line is a 46-mile branch running south from Cuba, 85 miles southwest of St. Louis, to Buick." (pg. 56, col. 1)  Steelville - a "tiny town" - is apparently just a few miles of Cuba. 

There's no mention of CSX or any of its predecessor railroads in the article or on the accompanying map - only BN (BNSF), UP, and SP.  

In addition to lead, the article mentioned that copper was also mined - the ore  was like 5% lead, 0.5% copper - so maybe that's why the tracks are still there, in case of another future 'comeback'. 

The photo at the bottom right corner of page 58 shows a gondola with CN's "wet noodle" logo clearly visible. 

- Paul North. 

[CShaveRR]

The branch with the lead mines would be one that left Frisco's (and BN's) St. Louis-to-Springfield line at Cuba, and went southward to Steelville and beyond.  It hasn't been used in years (beyond some industrial plants in Cuba), but the tracks are still intact.

(Pat has a brother who lives in Steelville, so we occasionally become familiar with this area.) 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

chad s thomas

I don't know Missouri and don't pretend to.. but I remember years ago reading about a lead mine operation on a BN branch line that originated 40-50 car trains of lead ore in 50' hoppers. Mabee that is what you saw.  

Hey, welcome back, Chad ! 

Might this be the article ? 

"BN gets the lead out - Missouri's lead belt and its railroading"

by Woods, Randy, from Trains, April 1996, p. 56

(Trains' Magazine Index 'keywords': BN  commodity  division  lead ) 

- Paul North. 

[PNWRMNM]

Steve,

While I am not a big fan of moderation, especially to excess, you did very will with this one.

Mac McCulloch

[narig01]

One comment. Though unlikely considering that the train in question had CSX power. In southeast Missouri there are any number of lead mines which use gondolas to ship out lead ore. I don't remember any along the BNSF line to Springfield though.

Thx IGN

[samfp1943]

Steve Sweeney

Dear All:

I have taken down certain posts which directed this thread off-topic and to an ugly place. If one of your replies happened to be caught up in the deleting, please accept my apologies.

Please review your recent posts and kindly remove any vitriol or snarky language directed at a specific person or select group of people.

All the best,

Steve S.

Thanks, Steve:

                           Your note is appreciated, at least by some of us.    

  FORUM policing is a nasty job at best > Somewhere between changing a smelly, dirty diaper, and cleaning out the cat box.<   Tasks that NEED to be done, but no one wants to do, and somewhat thankless.  

Around here it could be the equivalent of herding cats.    SO Muchas Gracias! 

[chad s thomas]

I'm doing good. Been busy. Just got relocated from St George (land of no trains) to Carlsbad, NM. doing time in motels again. At least here there is pleanty of train action. It's not mainline action but for a shortline(Southwest Railroad) there is pleanty of activity and our shop is right down the street from the railroad shop. Lots of potash and frac mining related traffic. How you been? Still working at the lumber yard? Hear things are real busy with frac mining in your area too.

[Murphy Siding]

chad s thomas

Hey MS, who's in charge of the popcorn machine these days?

 Hi  Chad.  We've been going without popcorn for a while.  How have you been?

[chad s thomas]

Hey MS, who's in charge of the popcorn machine these days?

[GN_Fan]

Ahem. Yes, lets stick to railroad issues. Way back when, back in the summer of 1965 I had a summer job in Eureka, MT on the Great Northern mainline. One of the WB trains I saw had about 50 empty 50' flat cars on the head end. At the time I thought it was kinda neat looking, altho unusual, but gave no thought as to why there were 50 empty flats going west. Call it just being young I guess. Years later I realized that there was a concrete reason for this, probably a special movement, possibly -- or probably military. I've seen several loaded EB military moves on the UP around Vegas and know that they were all flats, usually TTX TOFC flats, but back in the 60's TTX flats didn't exist. The UP trains probably originated at the Marine Logistics Base at Yermo and were headed east with rebuilt and repaired combat equipment. I can only speculate on the 50 flats, and I'm saying that you guys can only speculate on the gons also. That's all it is -- speculation. For all anyone knows it could be a train of hospital cars going to the scrapper. Who knows?

[samfp1943]

Murphy Siding

henry6

The gas and drilling companies have proclaimed their poison cocktail as proprietary and thus the ingredients do not have to be revealed to anyone. This has fire departments, first responders, and health departments very upset. Few are very happy in fact.

 This is a railroad forum.  Surely you can find a relevant forum to press your views?

Murphy Siding Said:"...

"...This is a railroad forum.  

Surely you can find a relevant forum to press your views?"

Add a big "AMEN" from out here!  

[chad s thomas]

I don't know Missouri and don't pretend to.. but I remember years ago reading about a lead mine operation on a BN branch line that originated 40-50 car trains of lead ore in 50' hoppers. Mabee that is what you saw.

[MidlandMike]

NILE

The Ann Arbor RR has been hauling sand for decades, from northern MI to Cleveland (I think) to car engine plants to use in die-casting.  I don't know how different that sand is from fracking sand, but they use two bay covered hoppers for moving sand.   

The sand hauled on the ex-AA has been processed on-site at the sand pit in Yuma, MI.  The sand grains have certain roundness, and a micro-pitted texture ideal for foundry sand.  The  processing yields clean sand grains of a certain size.  Processed sand often travels in covered hoppers.

[NILE]

The Ann Arbor RR has been hauling sand for decades, from northern MI to Cleveland (I think) to car engine plants to use in die-casting.  I don't know how different that sand is from fracking sand, but they use two bay covered hoppers for moving sand.   

[NILE]

I hate to break up the politics!   But Ed might beon to something.  The train had two CSX and one BNSF engine on it.  

[jeffhergert]

Phoebe Vet

Kyle:

If you want to chastise someone for the political, off topic, argument, THIS is the post that started the debate:

greyhounds

Probably fracking sand to be used in horizontal drilling to extract needed oil or natural gas.  Either under load or returning for more sand empty.

This whole horizontal drilling thing has created a boom.  For ordinary folks and the railroads.  A 20 year old with a high school education can make $80,000/year in the oil fields.  The railroads haul sand in and empties out.  They then haul oil out and empty tank cars in.  Can't beat it with a stick.  

I don't agree.  IMO, it wasn't until Henry's second post where things turned political.

Anyone have a key?

Jeff

PS. The other day I had a 85 car train of urea going to Minnesota. 

[Phoebe Vet]

Kyle:

If you want to chastise someone for the political, off topic, argument, THIS is the post that started the debate:

greyhounds

Probably fracking sand to be used in horizontal drilling to extract needed oil or natural gas.  Either under load or returning for more sand empty.

This whole horizontal drilling thing has created a boom.  For ordinary folks and the railroads.  A 20 year old with a high school education can make $80,000/year in the oil fields.  The railroads haul sand in and empties out.  They then haul oil out and empty tank cars in.  Can't beat it with a stick.