samfp1943 The ICRR Museum at the Station area in McComb, Mississippi ( Has on display a 250T Industrial Brownhoist RR Wreck Crane) as part of its collection.. it seems to be in pretty good shape..makes me wonder if it may be a "loaner' from the RR.
Confusion seems to reign. Not that I follow this issue closely, but it apparently isn't the first time there have been problems reported with the Canadian Trackside Guide. Here it what it shows:
ICG 100415 is a 150T crane @ McComb.
ICG 100416 is a 250T crane location unpublished. The one I mentioned above.
IC 100417 capacity and location both unpublished.
It would appear we should go with the photographic evidence.
Thanks, Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
Cranes in a museum may still be operational, but that does not mean they can be used quickly. All the inspections have to be up to date. The usual railroad aspects are routine, but I believe ALL the cables need to be inspected regularly before the crane can be used to lift anything. And by all the cables, that means every inch of every cable, not a simple task. A snapped cable can be lethal for anyone in its path, and a dropped load is no better.
As others have already pointed out, there are certain situations where a heavy railroad crane is almost the only option. Much of the time, however, the task can be carried out using lesser machinery. By retiring most of the wrecking cranes the railroads have eliminated most of that cost item. I have to assume use of rented cranes and/or contractors has proven to be cheaper.
John
Bruce: (said)
[snip] "... CN is shown as only having two 250 ton cranes, one in Toronto, ON and one at an unpublished location in the US, with an ICG reporting mark. It is an ex-Alton RR machine..."
Just a thought on this, The ICRR Museum at the Station area in McComb, Mississippi ( Has on display a 250T Industrial Brownhoist RR Wreck Crane) as part of its collection.. it seems to be in pretty good shape..makes me wonder if it may be a "loaner' from the RR.. McComb is still a pretty important place on the CNR ? It is ICRR #100417 and its tool car (see photo:
linked @ .http://www.rypn.org/forums/download/file.php?id=2097&sid=3cac16738c29725f7d61bd0463f6b47e
The railroads investment in wreck cranes, the equipment cars and manpower to support them was for 100% of the time - no matter if the cranes were being used or not. The manpower for wreck trains had to be pulled from their 'normal' daily duties when they were being used in wreck service. When being used in wreck service, the personnel was most likely being paid at overtime rates from the time the personnel were notified of their need in wrecking service until their return home.
When dealing with wrecking contractors, the carriers receive a all inclusive bill, pay it and their responsibility for that aspect of the derailment is over. There is no need for the carriers to devote any investment into either equipment and its maintenance or personnel.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
What doomed the wreck crane is economics. A crane on tracks can’t be utilized off the tracks, whereas todays popular crane services use their cranes in many applicants and in many places.
The AT&SF crane once assigned to Amarillo, TX is on display at Winslow, AZ. And plenty of people visit the site.
I guess the railroads have agreements with crane service companies to give them priority, and crane services drop everything for a railroad, and probably get paid handsomely for that priority service! Even so, that is probably cheaper than a crane on rails.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
There was a wreck in Britain or Sweden a few years back in mountainous terrain where they used a really long specialized rail-mounted crane to retrieve the equipment. Might be a thread on here about it.
Amtrak (and some others) have at least tested a specialized long-reach bridge crane for replacing bridge spans in short (overnight) time windows. They aren't able to 'slew' (turn) very far from the tracks, but might have the reach and lifting capacity needed for heavy work near and on the track structure.
- Paul North.
mudchicken BNSF and UP still have multiple 250ton diesel Industrial Brownhoist units out here for work in mountain country. In addition, there are several ex-UP and ATSF leased units here in Denver at Burnham Shops. If you need lift in limited reach areas where rubber tired or cat-tracked cranes cannot operate, they are still the way to go. I seriously doubt new units will ever be built. The steam powered units of BN, SSW and others were goners immediately after the last round of mergers and dumbsizing of the railroad forces. Over-reliance on the reckless cowboys on the sideboom cats of a Hulcher or Corman results in more expensive derailment costs with a lot more destroyed track and equipment. IMHO- A set of rubber tired loaders (980-988 variety) and skilled operators is worth more to me than any cat-tracked side boom crane. Unit of property threshold costs making a derailment recordable often happen because of additional damaged track and equipment, not the initial derailment. I'd love to know who owns the derelict MidSouth 150T unit at Vicksburg, MS (KCS or ?)
BNSF and UP still have multiple 250ton diesel Industrial Brownhoist units out here for work in mountain country. In addition, there are several ex-UP and ATSF leased units here in Denver at Burnham Shops.
If you need lift in limited reach areas where rubber tired or cat-tracked cranes cannot operate, they are still the way to go. I seriously doubt new units will ever be built. The steam powered units of BN, SSW and others were goners immediately after the last round of mergers and dumbsizing of the railroad forces.
Over-reliance on the reckless cowboys on the sideboom cats of a Hulcher or Corman results in more expensive derailment costs with a lot more destroyed track and equipment. IMHO- A set of rubber tired loaders (980-988 variety) and skilled operators is worth more to me than any cat-tracked side boom crane. Unit of property threshold costs making a derailment recordable often happen because of additional damaged track and equipment, not the initial derailment.
I'd love to know who owns the derelict MidSouth 150T unit at Vicksburg, MS (KCS or ?)
On the derailments I have been involved in - Hulcher was not given the run of the site - their operation was directed by the senior transportation, mechanical and MofW officials that were on site. The plan of attack was discussed and agreed to at every significant step of the project.
mudchicken BNSF and UP still have multiple 250ton diesel Industrial Brownhoist units out here for work in mountain country. . . If you need lift in limited reach areas where rubber tired or cat-tracked cranes cannot operate, they are still the way to go. I seriously doubt new units will ever be built. The steam powered units of BN, SSW and others were goners immediately after the last round of mergers and dumbsizing of the railroad forces. Over-reliance on the reckless cowboys on the sideboom cats of a Hulcher or Corman results in more expensive derailment costs with a lot more destroyed track and equipment. IMHO- A set of rubber tired loaders (980-988 variety) and skilled operators is worth more to me than any cat-tracked side boom crane. Unit of property threshold costs making a derailment recordable often happen because of additional damaged track and equipment, not the initial derailment.
BNSF and UP still have multiple 250ton diesel Industrial Brownhoist units out here for work in mountain country. . .
MC said quite a lot there.
I will add a bit from a Canadian perspective. According to the 2011 Canadian Trackside Guide, CP has only three cranes in the 200-250 ton capacity left, and one of those has been listed for sale since 2002. That one, in Golden BC, and two in Thunder Bay, ON. I expected that because the line north of Lake Superior has the same access challenges as in the mountains.
CN is shown as only having two 250 ton cranes, one in Toronto, ON and one at an unpublished location in the US, with an ICG reporting mark. It is an ex-Alton RR machine.
Now, CP has four hi-rail mounted hydraulic cranes in the 130 ton capacity range and CN has three 150 ton capacity models. They both have numerous smaller models as well.
Back when RR's had large staffs, cranes were manned by employees who had regular jobs as well. They would be pulled out of their regular jobs to work at the wreck site and there would still be enough men to take care of their regular duties. As well, there was all the post wreck routine maintenance that had to be performed by somebody, and ongoing work to keep the cranes ready for the next job. You could see why the RR's wanted to contract this work out, but as MC noted, the cure has at times proven to be more costly than the disease up here, as well.
This does remind me of one crane operator from the '60's or '70's. Unlike most wreck crews, who were recruited from terminal shop forces, this fellow was an Accountant! He had worked as a crane operator in construction before deciding to take courses to become a white collar worker. Wrecks were sort of like a "busman's holiday" away from his desk for him, followed by an astronomically large paycheque the next month.
Bruce
Saw a up crane going west on the CF&E in Van wert last year on Fathers day weekend.From what I heard they still build them in Bucyrus.
Deshler Ohio-crossroads of the B&O Matt eats your fries.YUM! Clinton st viaduct undefeated against too tall trucks!!!(voted to be called the "Clinton St. can opener").
CSSHEGEWISCH Railroad-owned wrecking cranes and equipment are pretty much a thing of the past. While Hulcher seems to dominate the clean-up market, there are some niche operations here and there, as mentioned in the above post.
Railroad-owned wrecking cranes and equipment are pretty much a thing of the past. While Hulcher seems to dominate the clean-up market, there are some niche operations here and there, as mentioned in the above post.
Largely true..but there are still a few (mostly regional) operations that keep side-booms and hi-rail cranes set up for re-railing operations.
Pan AM Rail (formerly Guilford Transportation) still had these last I heard.
The local freight operator in my area:Providence & Worcester railroad, has a Kershaw road/rail wreck crane and dispatches it to any and all derailments. They do use outside contractors equipment as well but there people and machinery are always first on scene. I watched them re-rail one of their Dash 8 GE units about three years back when a local freight hit the ground in my neighborhood.
There are still a few diesel "Big hook" type cranes left in RR service but given that purpose built road rail wrecking cranes are offered with the same capacities (up to 250 tons as pointed out in an earlier post) the rail mounted machines are pretty much obsolete.
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Paul_D_North_Jr In the past few years (decades ?), the advent of high-capacity mobile (rubber-tired) hydraulic cranes - with lifting capabilities close to or even more than the traditional 200 - 250 tons rail-mounted wrecking crane - has largely filled that gap, when the side-boom dozers can't. See, for example the photos and text on these web pages: http://www.cranemasters.com/services/emergency-derailment/ http://www.cranemasters.com/services/heavy-equipment-recovery/ "When your equipment gets away from you, Cranemasters is your best solution. Since we design and build our cranes specifically for railway work in difficult conditions, we go where typical long-boom guys wouldn’t even think of setting up. Restricted heights, hi-rail, no-rail, embankments, swamps and rivers – we’ve been there, and we’ll be there when you need us most." - Paul North. (No affiliation with this company - just found them to be an interesting source of info.)
In the past few years (decades ?), the advent of high-capacity mobile (rubber-tired) hydraulic cranes - with lifting capabilities close to or even more than the traditional 200 - 250 tons rail-mounted wrecking crane - has largely filled that gap, when the side-boom dozers can't. See, for example the photos and text on these web pages:
http://www.cranemasters.com/services/emergency-derailment/
http://www.cranemasters.com/services/heavy-equipment-recovery/
"When your equipment gets away from you, Cranemasters is your best solution. Since we design and build our cranes specifically for railway work in difficult conditions, we go where typical long-boom guys wouldn’t even think of setting up. Restricted heights, hi-rail, no-rail, embankments, swamps and rivers – we’ve been there, and we’ll be there when you need us most."
- Paul North. (No affiliation with this company - just found them to be an interesting source of info.)
The subject of Railroad MOW equipment and specialized equipment designed for specific uses around the nations railroads is a very interesting subject ( at least to my thoughts).
It does come up in these Forums from time to time...Some time back there was a Thread referencing the " Big Daddy" of Railroad wrecking Cranes The Industrial Brownhoist 250 ton Diesel Crane...
Post WWII,and into the 1970's and 80's.. If you had electric trains, and a layout back then you almost had to have a model of that I-B 250 ton Crane ( American Flyer and Lionel had them). They were huge, and cumbersome pieces, but necessary to have for the owning railroads. they traveled with their own Crews and Specialized trains.. Brought out in emergencies and when a heavy lift was required.. Expensive to own and operate for the railroads. ..
The trend began to utilize pieces of equipment designed for various construction uses to be used for railroad work as well.. Here is one company that build their own stuff from Commercial equipment @http://utilcorailroadservices.com/index.php/photo-gallery.html
Railroad ownership of the heavy cranes gave way to Railroad Contractors who invested in the special equipment and were on call for the emergencies on the railroads. The Big 250 ton crans started to dis appear from the scene. Dinosaurs, no longer needed. Junked or 'gifted' to Museums. One scch is at McComb,s at the IC RR Railroad museum (see link @) http://www.mcrrmuseum.com/ic100417.htm
Here in South central Kansas we see the trucks and equipment of R.J. Corman who has a facility just out of Wellington, Ks. And all around the country are other companies.. Hulcher is another pretty much national operation, and there are regional players as well.. A Google Search of Georgia listed 53 listings of Railroad track and maintenance Contractors.
Around here on the BNSF Herzog's equipment show up..Ultra Sound testing trucks, Their MPM train is a frequent visitor, CWR Welding Contractors with their truck mounted welding rigs. GRR Ballast Trains, with their self-stacking rigs. and all kinds of BNSF's track maintenance equipment and crews.
I believe the Nevada Northern 160 ton crane AA has been restored to operational status.
CSX X-215, last used in 1989(?), was donated to the B&O railroad museum in 1993.
Modern crawler cranes or sidebooms can be delivered to remote sites on standard flatcars and unloaded using portable ramps.
The obvious priority is to get the wreckage cleared, the rails repaired and the line back into operation. If the site us truly unworkable (narrow ROW between a vertical cliff and a river) the wreckmaster would probably have things cut up into quickly removable pieces and loaded on flats to get them out of the way. A slightly wider ROW might see cars simply shoved clear of the track. They would be dealt with later, at liesure. I recall seeing the undersides of several box cars during my one ride on the C&W some years ago. They had been derailed and turned on their sides some months earlier, and were still there.
Chuck
Do any of the Class 1s have a wreck crane that they can use to clean up derailments? I know today RR mostly us the cranes mounted to bulldozers, but if a derailment happens in a remote location (example, in the mountains), it would seem it would be easier to get one of the old wreck cranes.
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