November Issue of TRAINS

[joesap1]

In the November issue of TRAINS there is an article about an unnamed railroad taking on a new shipping assignment of some pressed logs. I understood the gist of the article, but some of the railroad terms left me befuddled. What is a "junk train?" I don't have the article in front of me, but the reference to two types of switches in the story also left me confused. Can anyone explain the railroad venacular in this very informative piece?

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by joesap1

In the November issue of TRAINS there is an article about an unnamed railroad taking on a new shipping assignment of some pressed logs. I understood the gist of the article, but some of the railroad terms left me befuddled. What is a "junk train?" I don't have the article in front of me, but the reference to two types of switches in the story also left me confused. Can anyone explain the railroad venacular in this very informative piece?

I believe a junk train is just a regular freight train that carries any cars needing to leave (also called manifests, mixed freights, etc) and it just about (if not) the lowest priority.

[ericsp]

Do they use the terms diverging turnout and converging turnout in the railroad industry?

Is one of the dangerous ways to put a car into a facing-point switch where they get the car and locomotive up to a relatively high speed, uncouple the car, keep the locomotive accelerating, and switch the turnout between the time the locomotive passes and the car passes? Was this what was refered to as "dropping" a car?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:
Is one of the dangerous ways to put a car into a facing-point switch where they get the car and locomotive up to a relatively high speed, uncouple the car, keep the locomotive accelerating, and switch the turnout between the time the locomotive passes and the car passes? Was this what was refered to as "dropping" a car?

Yes, doing a "drop" or a "running switch"

It is dangerous, because if everything doesn't work out you could easily be talking death or bodily harm.

The other reason it barely ever (if ever) gets done anymore is because the crews are to small, to do it properly you really have to have the old 4 man crew.

1) A Guy in the Loco
2) A Guy at the Switch
3) A Guy riding the handbrake
4) A Guy to pull the pin

Any fewer than 4 and it gets that much more dangerous.

[espeefoamer]

I saw a Dutch drop being made once on the UP.This was many years ago when UP used GP9s on locals.Everything has to be timed perfectly.It is a really cool operation to watch[8D]!!!

[edblysard]

Eric,
Mark covered most of it, but to highlight the difference in lingo, we call such a move "dropping cars".
Dutch drops have a different meaning down here.

As an example of a drop...
Facing the switch into a siding or a industry...(yes, we drop them there too)

Car is behind locomotive, and you want it in the siding or plant, and have no way to easily cut it off and run around it so you can shove it in the plant.

You back up a good ways, get some running room, close the angle cocks on both the cars(car) you are droping, and the locomotive.

Switchman is at the switch, hogger in the seat, conductor on the rear of the locomotive, or, depending on how brave or stupid he is, the cars.

Everybody agrees its a go, the engineer gets up to a good speed , then lets off the throttle, which runs the slack in...allowing the conductor to pull the pin(uncouple) the cars...engineer then opens the throttle, and runs away from the cars.
Switchman hopefully waits till the locomotive passes the switch, then lines it for the siding.
Either the switchman catches the car(s) and ties it down, or the conductor, if he is riding the cut, works the handbrake or busts the air...

And I have seen a conductor stay on the locomotive, and get ahead of the cars and play catch.

For us, a Dutch drop requires the same people, and the same basic move, but, instead of sending the locomotive down the main, and the car into the siding, you do the exact opposite, run the loco into the siding, let the car roll free down the main, and when the car passes the locomotive in the siding, you back out of the siding, and then chase the car down with the locomotive.

This is a quick way to get a cut of cars ahead of a locomotive, if you need to do a facing point move and dont want to drop the car into the plant, like say, Shell or Phillips...ya know?

This is, in my opinion, safer that dropping cars into siding, because the cars have less chance of running into something if you miss catching them, and they are allowed to roll free or uncontroled on the main, as opposed to rolling into a plant, or into a sideing.

Now, you only do a move like this if there are no, and I mean No grade crossings anywhere near you...because the first time you miss is exactly the moment when someone will drive into the crossing, and get hit.

If you miss them in the sideing, they can run through the switch at the other end, or , if it is a stub end sideing, get into the bumper.

Is doing a drop safe?
Only if the guys doing it have done it time and time again, then its no less or more dangerous than most things we do.

Done wrong, it can destroy equipment, and if the switchman does what Mark said, lines a switch under the locomotive or car, depending on what type of switch it is, a ridgid or harp stand, he can end up with a broken arm, missing teeth, or dead.


While my railroad's timetable and safety rules prohibit dropping cars, I have seen it done...[;)]
I cant reccomend you try this, and if you do, make sure your job insurance is paid up in full first!

As for poleing cars?

Well, it is not safe in any way.

Have I dont it?

Once, and I will not do it again, way to dangerous....I will sit there frogged in till someone can come rescue us.

Ed

[88gta350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by joesap1

In the November issue of TRAINS there is an article about an unnamed railroad taking on a new shipping assignment of some pressed logs. I understood the gist of the article, but some of the railroad terms left me befuddled. What is a "junk train?" I don't have the article in front of me, but the reference to two types of switches in the story also left me confused. Can anyone explain the railroad venacular in this very informative piece?

This is exactly the point I brought up a few months ago that to the relative newbies and non-railroad employees who read TRAINS, the terms need to be defined in an article, or there needs to be an easily accessible index of terms used in that issue. I realize in a column like Mark's that may not be possible, but for feature article it could be a useful idea.

[ajmiller]

I recall reading an article, published some years ago, on the Yosemite Valley RR which was a logging railroad. In the article it talked about flying switches and Dutch drops (in addition to logging inclines). Both moves are designed to get the engines around cars without a passing siding. The flying switch was as described above with the switch points facing the train. Seems to me that regardless of whether the engine or cars were switched onto the siding it would still be called a flying switch.

The Dutch drop was when the switch points were facing the other way. The engine would cut loose sufficiently far before the train reached the switch, then speed up past the switch. The switch is then thrown and the engine reverses and runs backward onto the siding before the cars get to the switch, then the swich is realigned for the cars to pass by on the main.

[edblysard]

Works both ways, the idea is to swap the position of the locomotive and the cars, no matter if it is a facing point move, (easier) or a trailing point move, (harder on the equipment when done wrong) although I have used the incline in the yard lead to do just that, let the cars roll past my motor in one track, the cars going to another track, instead of running through the yard and coming back to run around them.

Ed[:D]

[Anonymous]

What exactly is poleing?

[edblysard]

Look at older locomotives, switch engine thru road units...and you will see, on the pilot plate or frame, front and rear, just beside the foot board or steps, a small cast in indention, or pocket.

Note on older cars the same indention/pocket on both end, both sides..

Think about how neatly a pole, post or 4X4 would fit in that pocket.
Now think about what you would do if, say, you had a car roll back on you, and trap you in a track...your cornered, or frogged in because the car is in such a position you can not couple into it.

You can't back up, because of the cars behind you, and you can't advance, because the offending car will clip (corner)your locomotive.

You take your trusty pole,(4X4, old steel angle iron, just about anything you could find that would hold up, hopefully) stick one end in the pocket of the car, and have the engineer advance till you could place the other end in the pocket on the locomotive, then pu***he car out of the way.

Remember, you are holding and supporting the pole in place, with your hands...

The only problem was the pole often broke, and you were crushed, or it shattered, and you were killed, blinded, maimed, you get the point.

You have to hold the pole in place until the pressure or the weight of the locomotive would hold it in place for you, but by then, if it was going to break, it would have already, so....

Not much holds up when a 100 ton locomotive leans on it, and pushes a 70 ton car....

You should also note that most new locomotives, from the SD40 and up, do not have pole pockets on them, for good reason.

Did this once, was scared to death.

Will not do it again, they can fire me if they want to for getting frogged in, but I am not going to put myself, or ask anyone else to put them self in that position.

You might get away with it once or twice, but it will bite you in the end.
I had my one chance, aint going to push it any farther...

Ed

[CShaveRR]

Some of the GTW engines I used to hover near (before I got a job working for the railroad) actually still had poles that were used for such operations, mounted below the locomotive frame where they could be lifted off. They were large in diameter, slightly smaller at the ends, and had bands of steel to hold the ends together.

I've seen the poling operation, and a wide array of flying switches (yes, some were called "drops"). Even participated in one, at the switch-stand. That was a rite of ascension for me. Never saw one when I was actually getting paid...

[edblysard]

Before we got the MK1500Ds, we leased a lot of the old SW10s from UP we could, along with SW12 and 9s, old Geeps,,,almost every one had a pole, some shop made, some not, and re-rail frogs and chains hung from the frames.

Used a SW10 for the only pole move I ever did.

They can't pay me enough to do that again.

If I hadn't been green and new, and scared to death I would get fired for screwing up and getting the motor in a place it shouldn't be, I would never had done it.

My engineer had done it before, often, and hated it, but it was the only way out of a dumb move on my part.

Never again...

[joesap1]

Thanks for the great replies, espcially from the author. Yes, I was referring the trailing and leading switches. I also enjoyed Eric's and Ed's comments, but Ed, here you go again with some terms that escape me. What does "frogged in" mean? Thanks. I knew I did the right thing by subscribing to TRAINS.

[edblysard]

Joe,
Thats a lot easier to show someone than explain, but I will try.

In most instances, the clearence point between yard tracks is the frog on the next track...so imagine a small yard, with say ten tracks, track one being on your left, and track ten being the far right, and the lead runs away from you to the right.

Lets say track ten through 5 are full of cars to be switched.

You just finished switching track 3, and kicked a car into track 4, your switchman has you lined up for track 5, you head into 5 to pull the next cut of cars, and the car you kicked into track 4 rolls back out, just far enough to foul the lead track, and dies, or stops on the frog, (the section or part of track that guides the wheels were two pieces of track meets).

You just got "frogged in" in that you cant back out of track 5 without hitting the car in track 4, you cant go ahead, because you are looking at a full track ahead of you, and you cant come out of track 5 far enough to go down the lead to some other empty track...in other words, your trapped in place.

This happens to just about every switchman, at least once, and it is embarassing to the extreme.

There are not too may solutions to this problem, if your lucky, there is another crew in the yard, and they can come shove the car back into track 4, or, if they are at the other end of the yard, they get track 4 together, (coupled up) and drag it back out of your way.
You will be razzed for a long time about it, but thats life....

Or, you can shove the entire track 5 out the other end on the yard, past the far end of track 4, then couple track 4 up and drag it back yourself.
(lots of walking and work)

Before it was against the safety rules, one of the other soultions was to pole the car in track 4, depending on how much room you had to move you locomotive around, you would push it back into track 4, or out on the lead far enough that you could couple into it.

That leaves you with a car on your rear, and cars on the front on the motor too, but it beats hitting the car in track 4....

You can also use a chain, and if you have enough room ahead of you in track 5, you can "tow" the car in track 4 forward enough to get it in the clear.

Like I said at the beginning, the frog for an adjacent track is often the clearence point, so the frog in track 5 is the clearence point in track 4, the frog in track 4 is the clearence point in track 3....

Any car deep enough in track 4 to be on the far side of the frog in track 5 is in the clear of track 5, you can kick cars or move your motor into track 5, with out hitting the cars in track 4.

If the cars in 4 are on the near side of the frog in track 5, odds are if you send something to track 5, you will corner, or clip the cars in track 4.

Water muddy enough yet?

[:D]Ed

[tree68]

I remember seeing a drop, or whatever, years ago at Milford, MI, on the C&O. Looking back, I can now understand why they did it, considering the beginning point of the train (Plymouth), something I didn't know then. In fact, I'd have to guess that for that particular industry it was a regular thing.

I recall seeing a picture in TRAINS not long ago that showed a coupler that appeared to have a hydraulic or air operated pin. Is that common in the switching industry?

[joesap1]

Okay Ed, let's see if I get it.
A car runs through a switch onto an ajoining track. If it clears the switch but dies in the curved section of the track leading to the ajoining track - that is the frog area.That is because cars passing by on a track nearest the curved section will hit the car.
Is that right or do I have it all screwed up?