An asst of questions

[Mookie]

Of course!

Coal cars - rotary dump ones. Some have "belts" of rivets going around the underside where the two underside containers are. Some have one belt and it looks like it is pulled a little tight - making a definite "waist" and others have 3 belts of rivets that are spaced along the whole bottom - am I making any sense here?

Why?

What engine is painted two-tone blue with orange pinstripe? Is this TFM? Is that the Mexican part of KCS? It looked to have a Mexican flag painted on the side of the cab - but at our distance, it was hard to see much detail.

I saw a GP 15-1 - is this rare or just for me?

Do some hopper cars have longer "hoppers" than others?

Why?

Do all SD40s have 3 trucks? The ones we saw looked like a small box sitting on shoes that were too big for it. The body was shorter than the trucks and looked odd. So do any SD40's have two trucks?

And finally - hold your applause please - if I ship sand or kitty litter in bulk in a bottom dump and it leaks all the way from Lincoln to California (to see Dan) and is about empty when it gets there, who pays for the loss? Me or the railroad?

Remember, if you don't answer them all, some will come back to "haunt" you!

Mookie

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

Of course!

Do all SD40s have 3 trucks? The ones we saw looked like a small box sitting on shoes that were too big for it. The body was shorter than the trucks and looked odd. So do any SD40's have two trucks?

Remember, if you don't answer them all, some will come back to "haunt" you!

Mookie

Last I knew, all SDs had two trucks, but 3 axles on each... by definition, all SDs have three axle ("C") trucks. GPs have two axle ("B") trucks. That's why GPs are often referred to as "BB's" (or in some notation BoBo) and SDs as "CC's" (or CoCo). Same rules apply to GEs, ALCOs, etc.

I don't remember the whole story of the SD40, but it does involve big shoes on a "little" chassis, essentially a GP40 with CC trucks, on an SD45 frame, or something like that. They were often referred to as "porches." Those that had Locotrol equipment installed in the nose (resulting in a longer than normal short hood) were referred to as "Snoots."

[rvos1979]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

Of course!

What engine is painted two-tone blue with orange pinstripe? Is this TFM? Is that the Mexican part of KCS? It looked to have a Mexican flag painted on the side of the cab - but at our distance, it was hard to see much detail.

I saw a GP 15-1 - is this rare or just for me?

Do some hopper cars have longer "hoppers" than others?

Why?

Do all SD40s have 3 trucks? The ones we saw looked like a small box sitting on shoes that were too big for it. The body was shorter than the trucks and looked odd. So do any SD40's have two trucks?

Mookie

two tone blue.... Nationales de mexico, or NdeM, for short, the government's railroad before the privatization of their railroads.

I know UP has quite a few GP15-1s, they should all have UPY reporting marks by now, there's somewhere between 1-200 of these things, most in yard service. I don't know of any other railroad that has these.

do you mean length of car, or diferent hopper door configuration? not sure how to answer this one.

almost all SD40s (and SD38s, for that matter) were built on the same frame as the SD45, to cut costs; thus you have porches on both ends. Some railroads ordered radio control equipment, and the noses were lengthened to house the equipment; my employer (WSOR) is actually SHORTENING the noses on them to match the rest of our fleet. (don't ask me why, I don't know)

Randy Vos
WSOR Engineer

[Mookie]

Will have to digest these answers further - but regarding the hoppers - just the length of the hopper from the undercarriage to the opening - some are quite long and others are quite short. Is it the commodity that regulates this?

Moo

[mudchicken]

Mooks - GP15-1 's (Baby Tunnel Motors) are ex-Frisco units most likely. Railroads were buying them to replace worn out GP-7's and GP-9's....UP's GP15-1's are ex MoPac most likely. For a brief while, financing/ leasing of new units was cheaper to do than rebuilding old units and thus the GP15-1....

Agree on the NdeM unit, passing thru or working? (there are a bunch being rehabbed by NRE in Illinois)

[Mookie]

Well, from our vantage point - it was 2nd motor and just moving around in the yard. Maybe they were lining it up to actually work and leave the yard.

Mudchicken needs to use his pull to get us better seats! Closer to the action - maybe a small parking spot on the bridge? [:X]

[dehusman]

I don't understand the questions about the hopper cars and what you mean by "long" and "short".
Are you asking why some have 3 bays and some have 4? Are you asking why some have steep slope sheets and some have more shallow slope sheets?

GP15-1's were bought by MP(UP), SLSF(BN, BNSF) and CR (CSXT or NS). The SLSF units had a different filter arrangement so look different for the MP/CR units.

NO SD40's have 3 trucks. There have only been a couple US designed deisel or electric engines that had 3 trucks.

On the rotary dump cars some have a pair of "bellies" under them. Its just a matter of how the car building company designed them. Why does a Ford look different tahtn a Chevy?

You wouldn't ship kitty litter in an open top hopper, you'd use a covered hopper. Kitty litter is a clay product and if it got soaking wet (like a thunderstorm) it would be destroyed. The short answer is probably the railroad but it depends on who owns the car too.

Dave H.

[zardoz]

The CNW had some GP15-1's, numbered in the 4400 serires (4401-4415) I believe; or were they the 1300 series? Those might have become the UP's.

[CShaveRR]

Jim, some of the CNW GP15-1s were sold off before the UP took over, but ther rest of them did go to the UP. I think they're somewhere in the UPY 600 series now. Yes, they were the 4400s--the 1300s on CNW were the MP15s.

Jen, the answer to your coal gondola question (and possibly the hopper question, which I'm not sure about, is as simple as a difference in carbuilders. Johnstown America makes most of the straight-tub coal gondolas; the ones that are "tighter" in the middle were built by Trinity Industries. More later, maybe.

BC

[CShaveRR]

Sorry about the interruption.

As to hoppers, are you observing a difference between the cars that have pneumatic unloading and those that don't? The ones that can be air-dumped are usually lower and wider--when they open it's almost as effective as the bottom falling out of the car. There aren't many new hoppers with manually-operated hopper gates any more (those come with three or four pairs beneath the car; a lot of factors, such as density of the product and builder design, determine which you'll see). I know that Detroit Edison has a fleet of these, with orange rotary-coupler ends (why, I don't know), and those probably visit you fairly often (DEEX, DETX).

[CShaveRR]

Switching to the motive-power side...

When the 40-series locomotives were introduced in 1965-1966, all of the six-axle units were going to be built on the frame designed for the biggest unit, the SD45. The SD40s and SD38s were smaller (four cylinders fewer in the prime movers), so they were covered by shorter hoods. Hence the "porches" When the "Dash-2" line was introduced in 1972, the frames on everything became even longer, makig for bigger porches. More recent design changes gave the units anti-climbers to replace the drop-down "gangplank" between units--this didn't increase the length, but the perceived length of the porches was stretched again.

(Before you ask: anti-climbers were a modification to minimuize the chance of one unit over-riding, or climbing on top of, another in a collision.)

I wonder whether GM would have put shorter frames on its SD38s and SD40s if they'd realized how much more popular than the SD45s they'd be. Probably not--the longer frames also permitted longer fuel tanks, which most railroads would certainly appreciate.

The "snoot" engines weren't too common; I can't remember if ATSF had any. Those longer noses (usually for Locotrol equipment) would shorten the length of the front porch, but the units that had them would still have long porches behind the long hood.

I don't know why you're seeing some SD40-2s with longer porches than others (most of the old SD40s are probably gone now), but trust me--they all have long porches! And the "oversized sneakers" analogy has been drawn somehere before--in Trains if I'm not mistaken! I know you couldn't have seen it, but it's a good one!

[mudchicken]

ATSF had almost 50 "snoots" (a.k.a. "Honorary Alligators" for looking like big RSD-15's, 5071-5124) for RCE service. These replaced the F7B radio control cars and were with the remote helpers/ slaves 2/3rds of the way back in the train. I don't remember seeing BN with any of the snoots, but they did have the medium and short nosed versions.

There were some conventional short nosed engines, 5021,23,25,27 & 5047-5067 with RCE gear in short hoods. 5058-5070 had the Oscitroll triple oscillating lights mounted in the short hoods for running wrong main on other railroads like SP.

An ATSF SD40 is 65'-8" long, an SD40-2/SD45-2 is 68-10" long. GP-38'sand GP39's are 59'-2" long (Face of Coupler knuckle to Face of coupler knuckle)

The size of the hopper had a lot to do with the weight density of the commodity carried. A cubic foot of sand weighs more than grain or plastic pellets as an example. The cars can carry more than what the freight trucks underneath it can (which can cause big troubles)...[:D][:D][:D]

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

I don't understand the questions about the hopper cars and what you mean by "long" and "short".
Are you asking why some have 3 bays and some have 4? Are you asking why some have steep slope sheets and some have more shallow slope sheets?

GP15-1's were bought by MP(UP), SLSF(BN, BNSF) and CR (CSXT or NS). The SLSF units had a different filter arrangement so look different for the MP/CR units.

NO SD40's have 3 trucks. There have only been a couple US designed deisel or electric engines that had 3 trucks.

On the rotary dump cars some have a pair of "bellies" under them. Its just a matter of how the car building company designed them. Why does a Ford look different tahtn a Chevy?

You wouldn't ship kitty litter in an open top hopper, you'd use a covered hopper. Kitty litter is a clay product and if it got soaking wet (like a thunderstorm) it would be destroyed. The short answer is probably the railroad but it depends on who owns the car too.

Dave H.

My slip is really showing today.

I think I meant - 3 axels and 2 trucks. They just looked really weird. Like the whole wheel base was too long for the rest of the upper part.

Short as in slope sheets.

This car was a covered hopper - the dump door wasn't closed tight and was leaking sand or kitty litter or something quite fine.

Hope this clarifies and I will go stand in the corner for say - 5 min.

Mook

[CShaveRR]

Thanks, MC! I forgot that they actually lengthened the nose by a few inches late in the 40-series production. I haven't been paying attention, but it might have been enough to make a difference in how the porch looked, and that length has to come from somewhere!

Slope sheets on hoppers generally range from 30 to 45 degrees from horizontal. I think you'll find, on conventional hoppers, that the cars with 30-degree slope sheets are triple hoppers, and the cars with 45-degree slope sheets are quadruple hoppers. Since most recent hopper production is all of the same length (to fit in standard coal dumpers), the ones with more hoppers and steeper slope sheets are going to be able to haul more coal. Western coal is lighter than eastern coal (less dense), so more western railroads used quad hoppers, while the eastern railroads used triples. (That's generally speking--there are many, many exceptions.)

[CShaveRR]

As for your missing kitty litter, the railroad will probably wind up paying for its extra ballast, one way or another. You, the consignee, would probably complain to the shipper, saying you didn't get all of the tonnage that you're being charged for. He, in turn, would file a claim against the railroad.

[Anonymous]

Yesterday I saw a whole mess of NS "Top Gons" and noticed for the first time they had "Rebody" dates on them. What does this mean? To me it seems like they're just regular old hoppers that had their doors cut off and the bottom replaced with a reinforced sheet. Does rebodying mean it had more work done to them to go above and beyond what the word rebuilt implies?

[Gluefinger]

CNW's GP15-1s (4400-4410) are now UPY 545-554. The rest (4411-4424) were sold off

[Anonymous]

I believe "SD" stands for "special duty" and "GP" stands for "general purpose".

Larry

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman

I believe "SD" stands for "special duty" and "GP" stands for "general purpose".

Larry

That part I knew. Still so much to learn!

Mookie

[dehusman]

The different slope sheets are because different materials will slide at different slopes. also the car manufacturer is trying to arrange a certain cubic capacity or weight for a certain commodity and so will arrange the slope sheets to create that volume.

The stuff in the covered hopper could be sand, soda ash, or potash.

Dave H.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

The different slope sheets are because different materials will slide at different slopes. also the car manufacturer is trying to arrange a certain cubic capacity or weight for a certain commodity and so will arrange the slope sheets to create that volume.

The stuff in the covered hopper could be sand, soda ash, or potash.

Dave H.

One more question off the list! Thanx Dave!

[Sterling1]

I read your bio and then looked at this strange name for a subject, where did the name come from or was it straight imagination?

[Sterling1]

I hope you don't mind my splicing of questions but:
Down here in Florida, I sighted a short all covered hopper train led entirely by BNSF units a BNSF painted C44-9W, SD40-2 and BNSF restenciled but unrepainted Santa Fe SD40-2, all heading north on the Orlando-Kississimee-West Palm Beach line, I was wondering is borrowed BNSF locos common?

[Mookie]

Hi Sterling - if you looked at the picture, you will see why a lot about me is strange. The name Jenny was from my mother and the name Mookie is from my cat. Now which would you use if you were me.....right - Mookie is much closer to the person!

You had the same motive power we have up here every day (except for this last weekend). The borrowed power is usually run-through - you use mine, I will use yours in return or I need to get something from point A to point B (BNSF and UP here in Lincoln). Or sometimes, they will ship Lincoln a "foreign" power unit to refurbish here at our wonderful shops! That's all I know about the subject.

Come back and visit anytime!

Mook

[Anonymous]

NREX is rebuilding alot of old Southern Pacific tunnel motors with standard raidiators and the end result is a standard length hood on a looooong frame left over. theres some pics on railpictures.net. There primer gray with red lettering, looks weird like a liitle boy with daddys shoes on. Long live the rock.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RI4310

NREX is rebuilding alot of old Southern Pacific tunnel motors with standard raidiators and the end result is a standard length hood on a looooong frame left over. theres some pics on railpictures.net. There primer gray with red lettering, looks weird like a liitle boy with daddys shoes on. Long live the rock.

a couple of the older engines we see, do look exactly like the little boy and the big shoes. Like they were cobbled together by a committee...

[Sterling1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

QUOTE: Originally posted by RI4310

NREX is rebuilding alot of old Southern Pacific tunnel motors with standard raidiators and the end result is a standard length hood on a looooong frame left over. theres some pics on railpictures.net. There primer gray with red lettering, looks weird like a liitle boy with daddys shoes on. Long live the rock.

a couple of the older engines we see, do look exactly like the little boy and the big shoes. Like they were cobbled together by a committee...

Hmm Iwaonder what kind of committee cobbled up the European locomotives or Russian tanks . . .

Thanks for the visitation rights, so much trackage and haulage rights!!!

[locomutt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

QUOTE: Originally posted by RI4310

NREX is rebuilding alot of old Southern Pacific tunnel motors with standard raidiators and the end result is a standard length hood on a looooong frame left over. theres some pics on railpictures.net. There primer gray with red lettering, looks weird like a liitle boy with daddys shoes on. Long live the rock.

a couple of the older engines we see, do look exactly like the little boy and the big shoes. Like they were cobbled together by a committee...

Went to Railpix,saw 9402. Now that is one loooooooooooooonnnnnggggggg
porch. There's enough room for the glider,a couple of lawn chairs,and the BBQ.

How come they did it like that? I might have thought they would have put some
ballast in.

[fuzzybroken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Gluefinger

CNW's GP15-1s (4400-4410) are now UPY 545-554. The rest (4411-4424) were sold off

... to the California Northern -- looked quite sharp in green, white, and yellow!! (Especially the nose bell!!!) Anybody got numbers or further heritage on these???

-Mark
http://www.geocities.com/fuzzybroken

[dwil89]

As mentioned above, the Tunnelmotors will fill out the frames...again, for ones unfamiliar with a Tunnel motor, EMD produced them, with the radiators mounted low on the carbody for the Southern Pacific notably, as conventionally designed diesels had a tendancy to overheat in long tunnels, asmultiple engine consists would heat the air in the tunnel, and the rear engines tended to overheat because the hot air was trapped at the top of the bore...the Tunnel motor moved the radiator intakes to the bottom of the carbody, where the cooler air would be located, as heat rises.... As far as the GP vs SD designations, the easiest way to describe it, is as earlier posts indicated....SD's are 6 axle and GP's are 4 axle, so an SD40-2 and GP40-2 are basically the same in terms of HP and running gear, main difference is the axles, plus shorter frame on the GP's....The GP38-2's are basically the same as a GP40-2, except that the diesel prime mover is not turbocharged, therefore has a different sound, and 2,000HP instead of the 3,000 HP in the GP40 and SD40 variants.... There were also SD38's and some 38-2's built. 2,000HP 6 axle units. Conrail used them primarily in hump service in classification yards mated to slugs, Other Railroads may have used the SD38's for other purposes. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown