GP9-2

[Anonymous]

Gentlemen-

I think most of you are ignoring a number of different realities about EMD locomotives.

First, the Dash 2 series was an improvement in electronics over existing non Dash 2 locomotives. It had nothing to do with the type of prime mover. For example both the GP38 and the GP38-2 have a 645 type prime mover.

As to the various rebjuildings of GP9s there have been some issues with the reboring of 567 engines to accept 645 PAs including both block and crankcase issues.

Perhaps the closest to a "GP9-2" produced in a rebuilding program are the IC GP11 units that were rebuilt from GP9s at Paducah Shops in the 70s and 80s. The GP11s have Dash 2 electrical cabinets, new cabs, lengthened frames and internal blowers that were installed when the units were remanufactured.

From friends in the mechanical end I have heard that the GP11s did not have the EMD traction control system installed due to the expense of the additional cabling, but I have never inspected one of these units. I do know that quite a number have recently been spun off to short lines.

LC

[Overmod]

jruppert, surely you mean 3512 and 3516? Those seem to be what Cat's OEM department is promoting as locomotive engines in this power range.

The OEM solutions department is at 100 NE Adams St, AH9310, Peoria, IL 61629-9530, with contact telephone [phone], if anyone interested wants to follow up on the "ideal" Cats for various types of repowerings...

a small clarification on dehusman's post: You don't "bore" a 567 out to use 645 power assemblies (the power assemblies themselves contain the 'bore' in question). [Dave knows this of course, but some readers of this thread might not] I believe normal practice is to derate the injection so the 645s don't make more power, so that you don't overstress the 567 crankcase, etc. My understanding was that the conversions were done largely to make parts replacement more convenient and perhaps cheaper.

Dave's other point is quite correct: there ain't much point in making a GP-9 into a Dash-2 with massive rebuilding -- remember that a great deal of the wiring in a GP-9 will be incompatible with EMD electronic or modular controls, and the racks and connectors for the electronics will need to be fabricated... etc, etc, etc. It's not as simple as changing out the engine.

[dehusman]

Dash 2 engines don't use the 710 engine, they use 645 engines. A straight GP-9 uses a 567 engine. They can be bored out to use 645 power assemblies.
To make a GP9-2 you would have to keep the frame, cab, hood and truck frames and pretty much replace everything else, plus fit it all on a 3 foot or so shorter frame.

It would be cheaper to lease a GP38-2 and be done with it.

Dave H.

[edblysard]

It is..
The "new" GP15 and GP20 are really MK1500D and MK2000Ds, built under license by Bosie Locomotive, or Motive Power Inc, or MK Rail, depending on what week of the year it is....

We use their MK1500Ds, have the first 24 production models built, the others went to HB&T.

We flat yard switch with them, and regularly use them to haul 100 cars trains...

UP has a fleet of GP15 and 20s leased from CEFX, they are working them out pretty hard down here...

Ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by enr2099

On EMD's website they list the GP20D as being powered by the GM V16-170B20-2 engine. It's Tier 2 compliant.

I wonder if that designation is simply GM's rebadge name for a Cat's 3612, 3616.

[enr2099]

On EMD's website they list the GP20D as being powered by the GM V16-170B20-2 engine. It's Tier 2 compliant.

[Overmod]

Perhaps as important a point as the ones Peter has raised is that, in a market vastly glutted with various types of four-axle unit, it makes very, very little sense to market a brand-new unit with restricted utility and low horsepower. If you compare the price of a GP38-2 (which is relatively high compared to other contemporary EMD locomotives precisely for this kind of reason!) with what GM is asking for a GP20D, and then factor in some of the more common parts costs and maintenance expense, you may see why EMD probably won't "sell a lot of [them] to railroads for local use."

BTW, there is an interesting comparison to be made between what you're proposing and the UP's experimental construction of the "SD24M" in 1968 [http://utahrails.net/up/diesels/up-diesel-story-1934-1982-d.php]. (Note: it didn't work out as economical...) UP is also somewhat famous for its early turbocharging experiments with real GP-9s, first with Garrett and Elliott turbos, then with EMD's (the latter essentially being converted to GP-20s)

[M636C]

EMD have never built a blower version of the 710 engine, although a twelve cylinder blower 710 should be capable of 2000 HP by comparison with the rating of 645 engines. The fuel economy would be considerably worse than the Cat - derived engines such as the 16V 170 of the same power, and it would cost more.

The existing GP38-2, which was built until relatively recently, is very close to the type of locomotive you are suggesting. Many of the older GP40s have been rebuilt to GP38-2 specification and have been quite successful. With many 16-645 engine crankcases available and relatively cheap, there is little likelihood of a blower 12-710 being required.

Peter

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by enr2099

QUOTE: Originally posted by Guilford350

You sure ask a lot of questions![:)]

The closest locomotive that EMD makes right now to what you described would be the GP15D and GP20D. The GP15D has a 12-cyl 710 and the GP20D has a 16-cyl 710.

The GP15D's and GP20D's were originally powered by Cat Engines. Hmm, I wonder when they started using the 710 engine.

Sorry, that's my mistake. They are powered by Cat engines. Got the '710' and '170' mixed up. Sorry about that.

[enr2099]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Guilford350

You sure ask a lot of questions![:)]

The closest locomotive that EMD makes right now to what you described would be the GP15D and GP20D. The GP15D has a 12-cyl 710 and the GP20D has a 16-cyl 710.

The GP15D's and GP20D's were originally powered by Cat Engines. Hmm, I wonder when they started using the 710 engine.

[Anonymous]

You sure ask a lot of questions![:)]

The closest locomotive that EMD makes right now to what you described would be the GP15D and GP20D. The GP15D has a 12-cyl 710 and the GP20D has a 16-cyl 710.

Upgrading a GP9 to "Dash 2" standards could be possible but you might have a hard time fitting a full 710 in there.

[Anonymous]

Would it be possible to make a GP9-2 by removing the turbo from an 11 cylinder version of the 710, and using the better electronics from an SD40-2 instead of the SD70ACe? Would EMD make such an locomotive? I bet they could sell a lot of them to the railroads for local work.

keep asking keep learning