Weed Weasels

[Anonymous]

I sense the disdain that many people here have for "weed weasels." I understand what the weasels are looking for in other lines of work ......construction crews, utility crews, police, etc

What are railroad weed weasels looking for?

Thanks
Jim

[Anonymous]

And they do a great job at times!

Thank God for the freedom we have

David

[Anonymous]

That's what I don't understand. What operating rules?

Can engineers ignore some signals? Like running a yellow light when you are driving your car? Do engineers pu***he speed limits?

It just seems to me that if a train crew breaks a rule, disaster will soon follow. Mainly because it is so hard to stop the train. Not being in railroading, I just can't think of any little, insignificant rules that can be broken. I guess there are some.

Or do some engineers know where they can stop the train and go hang out in a go-go bar for a couple of hours on a hot afternoon? :-)

Thanks
Jim

[gabe]

I certainly am not an expert in this area. But, I can think of at least three Trains Magazine's articles where the weed weasels were holding a radar gun, if that gives you any indication--most notably Trains' "Big Train" article concerning the Rock's 57 (good article).

My interpretation of this is that engineers will sometimes exceed the speed limit--under the belief that they know track conditions better than those who issue the speed restrictions.

But, that is just my take. I wouldn't read too much into it.

Gabe

[Junctionfan]

I have seen trains go real slow as if there was slow orders on the track even though no green flags were present. That is despite the fact that the train may not be carring anything requiring a speed restriction.

[ValleyX]

How do you know, Junctionfan? I don't know anything about Canadian operating rules but just because there aren't any resume speed boards, could there be a slow order there and the boards haven't been put up yet?

It's far easier to go out and watch a local or a yard crew work and observe them obeying rules than it is for weed weasels to watch a road through freight, unless they observe them through slow orders, speed through town ordinances, speed across the rail, etc., etc. Now, when they're stopped, that's another story.

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX

How do you know, Junctionfan? I don't know anything about Canadian operating rules but just because there aren't any resume speed boards, could there be a slow order there and the boards haven't been put up yet?

It's far easier to go out and watch a local or a yard crew work and observe them obeying rules than it is for weed weasels to watch a road through freight, unless they observe them through slow orders, speed through town ordinances, speed across the rail, etc., etc. Now, when they're stopped, that's another story.

Because I have seen on the same day a couple of trains going really fast and some going really slow.

[Junctionfan]

Train 231 which was going slow but usually goes at least 50mph was loaded with lumber, tar, steel coils, shorty hoppers (HOKX, RGCX), a couple of loads of sulfuric acid, and some autoparts (86 foot autoboxs) no more than 35 cars and no set offs until Port Robinson but optional.

Train 334 which was going fast carring lots of empties, clay, autos, cyclohexane, clay, residue of chemicals, scrap metal totaling 156 cars enroute to Hamilton likely for a set off or pick up before going towards Mac Millan Yard.

Train 421 which was going fast carring 12 loads of vinyl chloride, 1 load of anhydrous ammonia, lumber, empties, grain, sulfur. Total cars 88 cars

Train 328 which was going slow carring empty of loaded 86 foot autoboxes and 2 or 3 loaded frame cars. Total cars 32.

Checked the signals and no yellows, just greens. Next day other trains going fast went slow but the slow trains went fast for the most part. Sound like to me, some engineers are more comfortable with track conditions than others.

[ValleyX]

You're speculating, maybe they did have a clear signal but they were pacing themselves because of traffic ahead, congestion in a terminal, local making switching moves, it goes on and on.

Mark, as for weed weasels, I've known a tremendous number of supervisors over three decades plus, and they run the quality scale from 1 to 10. Don't normally call them that but that seems to be a term online that everyone immediately knows what you're referring to. Some were straightforward, some were devious, and some were so far in left field that it would have taken them three days to come out of left field, with their tortured reasoning. True, many of those that were that extreme didn't last as supervisors but sometimes it's very surprising what does pass muster. I personally don't think it's the most insulting term, there's plenty that're more insulting and, in some cases, deserving, but what do I know, I'm just a lowly T&E employee.

[Junctionfan]

I have seen thease trains in action, all day in fact for a long time. If I don't get to than my club members including a CN engineer who is on the Grimsby Sub does plus a member who was a CN dispatcher. This isn't that busy of a subdivision for a double track mainline. Looking at the March 2004 Operating Bulletins, there isn't any bulletins in St.Catharines section except in Niagara Falls and Hamilton. Even with the slow orders, their speed varies depending on who is driving the train.

[Anonymous]

To my friend M.W. Hemphill

Quite the little spanking you gave me!

"Weed Weasel" is a term I learned on this forum..... from ValleyX, Edlbylsard, and others. From their postings, I had an idea of the meaning of the word, but I did a search on the term to be sure. I found it used quite often. I thought the word to be railroad slang .....like calling a police officer a "cop," not like calling him a pig.

I used a "pejorative term," you say. Dang, I had to find the defination to that one in a dictionary. It would seem that my vocabulary is not up to that of this forum's.

You're right.....I'm "not in the game." I'm just someone with an above average interest in railroads and railroading, who buys a "Trains" magazine more months than not. It would seem that there are minimun qualificatons to post here, and that I should be careful. This is no place for my stupid, innocent questions, that often begin with "I don't understand ....."

The inherent danger in railroading was the basis of my question. It seemed to me (there I go again showing my ignorance) that the breaking of railroad rules in the yards or out on the rails would spell disaster ..... if not the first time someone broke the rule, or if not the second time, then the third time for sure. Death or serious injury to the workers or to the general public, destruction of railroad property or to public property. I guess I found it hard to believe that there are people working on the railroad that would break these simple, easy to follow, rules.

When I first got out of college, my job was to go around and check on crews at a large construction site. I was hated by most. I was a young, punk college boy having to tell these guys that break time and lunch time was over. I found grown men actually, physically, hiding from their boss to avoid work. Grown men sabotaging equipment to avoid work. Grown men signing each other's work sheets to avoid work. But these were just lazy, union construction workers striving to do, and be, the minimum. These were not life and death matters.

Later, my job was to inspect the quality of the work done by the welders on the site. In concrete pours, I would make sure that the rebar was laid correctly and the concrete was at the right temperature and viscosity for the application. "Corners cut" in these areas of building construction can result in a loss of public life, they are life and death matters .....like railroading rules. And I enforced them without fail.

Why did you, twice, break the rules and not report the men who, twice, broke the rules, inviting a rear-end collision as you put it, and the possible catastrophic results of it?

No need to answer. I'm outta here. I'll just stick to reading Trains mag and playing with my little HO train layout ..... my sons are becoming quite the yard switchers.

Your pal
Jim Lederer
NJ

[csxengineer98]

weed weasel is a turm used to discribe train masters...road forman of engins... terminal mananagers... and any other rail road offical that hides or spys on crews wating for them to brake any opporating rule....either by accident..or on perpouse.....most of the time they are doing this to clime the corropate ladder...the more rule violations they can find in a time peroid the better it looks to thier bosses...and the better chance they have to keep thier job should their be any kind of lower or middle managment cuts....officials have to do so many "ovservations" a month to meet not only the railroads reqierments..but also the FRA...the weed weasels that go above and beyond the the minimum are the ones you have to watch out for...they are the ones that want to clime up..and it dont matter how many crews have to hang to make thier record look better
.
csx engineer

[eolafan]

To Mark Hemphill: HERE, HERE and THANKS!

[edblysard]

Mr Lederer,
My bad on the "weed weasel"...
Like CSX said, its the bad apples that spoil the bunch.

More often that not, the trainmaster I have to deal with are pretty much on the bubble...but, there are a few who, for whatever personal reason, seem to become rather self enchanted with the title before their name.

They are the weed weasels I speak of, the guys who really do hide in the weeds, looking for any rule infraction, which they catalog, and then, when it suits their purpose, they use against the T&E employee to coerece them into doing something they normally wouldnt do.

The rule broken can be something as simple as pulling a pin, (holding the cut lever up) with your foot, to detraining on the wrong foot, throwing a switch without using the 3 point stance, junk like that.

They have been know, at least on the road I work for, to literally hide behind a cut of cars in a sideing, and, as a train approaches on our main, throw a red flag out in between the rails, then charge the engineer with running a red signal and operating over restricted speed.

Of course, 75 feet is way too short to stop a 80 car train in, but thats not the point....

I have yet, in 8 years found a engineer on my road, or any other, that speeds, ignores the operating and safety rules, or in any way purposely breaks any of the rules.

For the most part, Trainmasters should be viewed as middle managers, they make the day to day decisions that keep railroads running, they decide to call extra crews, help dispatchers make some decisions, keep terminal managers informed of when and where tains are going to show up, which train goes where, and when, pretty much a thankless job if you really think about it.

And, of course, they are required, by the FRA, to perform a certain number of rules test per month.
Even the best trained professionals, if no one checks their performance, will get lax, and develop bad habits.

Pilots have a checklist they have to follow, every time, just ask Dan...

The idea behind the FRAs pushing the rules test isnt to fire people, its to ensure we all follow the rules, all understand the rules, and everyone interpets the rules the same way.

Most trainmasters are up front about it, and do the testing in a manner that is fair, under real conditions that you would find out here, but some...well, you get the point.

And, just to add to it, how many of you folks who dont do this for a living know that there is three different rule books?
I know the GCOR, but there is another rule book, used pretty much east of the Mississippi, and Canada has theri own version.

Trainmaster know them all, its their job.

Sadly, the guys who do this job, and do it well, are almost never mentioned, never reconized, and never thanked, mostly because the one who dont do the job well, and do hide in the weeds, attempting to weasel their way up the ranks, have earned all the trainmaster the nickname weed weasel.

Look at my job, yard switchman....now, outside of the craft, if someone called me a yard snake, or a yard dog, I would take offense.
But those two terms are used all the time to describe what I do, flat yard switching.

Offensive?

From another railroader, no, and most likely from anyone on this forum, no again.

But from someone who has no idea what I do, and applies the term in a derogatory manner, yes, it would be offensive.

So, my bad for introducing the term to you, I was using a familar name that I knew all the other railroaders would reconize, and did so without thought...

Ed

[dehusman]

Oh by the way the Federal Government requires railroad officials to conduct suprise and efficiency tests and regularly warns or cites railroads because they DO NOT find enough violations, when the FRA inspectors can go out and find crews violating operating rules every day (and do). So rather than the "weed weasels" being too tough on the crews, the FRA finds fault with them not finding rules violations.

[jeaton]

Managing a railroad is no different than managing any other business that is 4' 8-1/2" wide, thousands of miles long and requires strict observation of a set of rules designed to prevent destruction, injury and death.

Any who have been in the working world for a good length of time have either seen or had to work for totally incompent managers. Sometimes, the lack an easy ability to be more descriptive, or just laziness, will lead to the use of terms or obscenities that "says it all". On the other side, there is also the occasional employee who has no respect for any manager, and perhaps, little respect for any one else. He is the one who will not fail to use dreogatory terms when talking about managers. Fortunately, the people in either category are a small minority.

The first level operating managers of a railroad have a very difficult task. They have the very large responsibility of enforcing a complex set of rules, some of which might not seem reasonable without some in depth discussion of the whys and wherefors. And, they have to perform those tests. I am sure that more then one time, a well respected trainmaster was the subject of some grumbling when a test requiring the stopping of a train was just one more thing on a trip with other problems and frustrating events.

A case in point about rules. When I worked on the IC's suburban service, I observed, but didn't understand the reason for a rule that required a person manning a switch to stand a certain distance away from the switch stand while a train was going over the switch. The first thought might be to avoid getting whacked by the train or something protruding from the train. It came to me one day when was performing this task. I had thrown the switches to line the train out of the yard and to the platform, and stepped backed to the safe area beside a little shack. I was kind of watching the movement of the switch structure as the trucks passed over, and at one moment had a reaction that went like oh, no trucks on the switch, time to go throw the switches. In another moment, after taking two steps toward the switch stand, I realized that the reason there were no trucks on the switch was because I was looking at the empty space under the middle of a car. So there is a situation where a safety rule writer had realized that someone not completely aware of the situation,say day dreaming, mesmorized or distracted by something, would have a moment to get the brain in gear before any damage was done.

Some might suggest that in the situation Mark described there were mitigating circumstances that might make the "bending" of the rule not something of a serious nature. Not true. I wasn't involved, but I had something of an insiders view when the "bending" of a rule for a matter of convenience became such a common practise that one day a train crew got too careless and bent the rule just a little to far. The result was a collision that took the lives of some two dozen people.

Jay

[Rustyrex]

<<<quote>>>They have been know, at least on the road I work for, to literally hide behind a cut of cars in a sideing, and, as a train approaches on our main, throw a red flag out in between the rails, then charge the engineer with running a red signal and operating over restricted speed.

Of course, 75 feet is way too short to stop a 80 car train in, but thats not the point....<<<>>>

......as well as holding down a 14,000 ton train on a 1% grade with a fusee burning on the inside rail in a curve ahead and the TMO wanting you to pull up about 150 feet so he can hop on the engine and fini***he Evaluation, only to drop another as you kick off the air [:(!]. I knew an engineer this happened to.

Though, the best one from this particular TMO was the night he was dropping a fusee in the snow continuously as a crew rounded the corner to see a red light going, then disappear into the 10 inches of snow about 15 times over and over, as he was dropping these from a hill in a sort of blind corner in Yard Limits, supposedly hoping to hit the inside rails. Needless to say the crew stopped short of the general fusee landing spot(s) and laughed themselves silly at the frustrated TMO. The crew was telling the yardmaster on the radio about these red UFOs he was seeing as you hear the conductor in the background just dying laughing.[:D]

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Rustyrex

<<<quote>>>They have been know, at least on the road I work for, to literally hide behind a cut of cars in a sideing, and, as a train approaches on our main, throw a red flag out in between the rails, then charge the engineer with running a red signal and operating over restricted speed.

Of course, 75 feet is way too short to stop a 80 car train in, but thats not the point....<<<>>>

......as well as holding down a 14,000 ton train on a 1% grade with a fusee burning on the inside rail in a curve ahead and the TMO wanting you to pull up about 150 feet so he can hop on the engine and fini***he Evaluation, only to drop another as you kick off the air [:(!]. I knew an engineer this happened to.

Though, the best one from this particular TMO was the night he was dropping a fusee in the snow continuously as a crew rounded the corner to see a red light going, then disappear into the 10 inches of snow about 15 times over and over, as he was dropping these from a hill in a sort of blind corner in Yard Limits, supposedly hoping to hit the inside rails. Needless to say the crew stopped short of the general fusee landing spot(s) and laughed themselves silly at the frustrated TMO. The crew was telling the yardmaster on the radio about these red UFOs he was seeing as you hear the conductor in the background just dying laughing.[:D]

AHAHAHAHAHA...UFO...AHAHH..PRICELESS
they love it when you stop about 30 cars away from where they are at and have to hike to the head end....they have a nasty tendancy to get bitchy with you for stoping so short..but to shut them up..all you got to say is...this is where i felt safe stoping the train..shuts them right up..as soon as you use the S word (safty) the ballgame changes in favor of YOU!!!
csx engineer

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Rustyrex

Though, the best one from this particular TMO was the night he was dropping a fusee in the snow continuously as a crew rounded the corner to see a red light going, then disappear into the 10 inches of snow about 15 times over and over, as he was dropping these from a hill in a sort of blind corner in Yard Limits, supposedly hoping to hit the inside rails. Needless to say the crew stopped short of the general fusee landing spot(s) and laughed themselves silly at the frustrated TMO. The crew was telling the yardmaster on the radio about these red UFOs he was seeing as you hear the conductor in the background just dying laughing.[:D]

That is a genuine classic!!

[jchnhtfd]

The only thing I would add, having worked on both the inspection/checking side and working side in several different professions, is that -- 99.9% of the time -- the inspectors (e.g. trainmasters) would much rather work with the workers (e.g. conductors, engineers, brakemen) than cite them. And the other way around. That 0.1% of the time could be either side of the equation, and could be an overall ongoing problem with an individual, or just simply a bad day. But it is that 0.1% that riles folk. And like anything else unpleasant, it's that 0.1% that one remembers.
As someone said, railroading is one of the most dangerous professions around (construction, one of my other hats, is right up there too!), but it is a lot safer for all concerned if everyone works together. The rules are sometimes onerous, but most of them are there for a very good reason (not all of them, guys, before you all land on me![:D]).

[ValleyX]

It's very simple, I believe in rules compliance and well understand that personal opinion of those rules doesn't enter into it because personal opinion is that we've somewhat entered the age of "Railroading for Dummies", but it doesn't matter, compliance keeps me employed. As for observation by supervision, let them watch, but I've known of some unreasonable things to happen. It's undoubtedly the same in every type of work.

Someone wiser than I once told me that in almost every type of work there is, you will find that about 10% of the workforce is exceptional, 80% of them are competent, and the other 10% probably shouldn't be anywhere on the property. This applied to ditchdiggers as well as CEO's. I believe that there's a lot of truth to that.

[Anonymous]

Some of the officials who hide out in the bushes at night doing op tests have gone as far to dress in military fatigues and paint their faces black. This is just plain stupid and these are the ones on the rr who have no life at all outside of their job and can be classified as nuts. Some have even sneaked up on train crews and this is a good way to get bopped in the head by a lantern. Some crewmen at night when waiting for a stop signal or a meet, will toss rocks into the ditch to pass time by hoping they nail one of these nutty officials.