carriso gorge

[bobwilcox]

I think the future of this line as a route to the east will rise or fall with Toyota's plans for an assembly line in MX. If that happens the line will be reopened.

[ericsp]

I looked at the map (http://www.sdrm.org/history/sda/photos/sdamap2.jpg). Appearently Campo is west of Carriso (for some reason I was thinking it was east of it).

Is the narrow gauge railroad at Plaster City still operating?

[MP57313]

Well I finally made it out to Campo today. And yes, the ticket stock they use for the trains spells it "Carriso Gorge".

The museum folks run two trains a day from Campo to Miller Creek and return; all passengers must stay on the train at Miller Creek while the engine runs around on a siding. The trip is about 9 miles each way, with several cuts and fills but no tunnels or high bridges. It is scenic, passing through ranch land and near a few residences. Miller Creek is a couple miles short of the high deck bridge over Ca. Route 94, well short of Carrizo/Carriso Gorge.

Today's morning train was the "Pumpkin Special"; passengers were mainly families with young kids, along with a girl scout troop. At the end of the trip each passenger selected a free pumpkin.

According to one of the volunteers, all track maintenance is done by hand, and they are regularly replacing the ties along the route. While the San Diego Trolley company owns the route, the museum is responsible for maintenance of the line segment they use, and each train is followed by a speeder to make sure no fires break out. This area was also drenched with rain last week (4 inches in 3 days - a lot for this high desert area) so the fire danger was low.

At some point later in the year they plan on running a train from Campo to Tecate and back. There will be time for a tour of the Tecate brewery, and a chance to see the town. Once the train gets back to Campo all passengers will need to pass through Customs...there is a trailer next to the station for that.

The Campo museum has a lot of stuff on display...diesels (good shape), steam engines (fair shape), a few freight cars and several passenger cars, some b-a-r-e-l-y hanging on. It's kind of like the museum at Perris, with some cars in a shed but most outside.

I also drove further east along Ca 94 to Jacumba; didn't get to Carrizo Gorge itself (that'll be another trip). The high deck bridge along the way is worth a look. Jacumba has a random assortment of diesels, old passenger cars and several hopper cars. I don't know who owns all these; the San Diego & Imperial Valley does have a maintenance facility there.

Through freights along this route, from San Diego to the Imperial Valley? Not this month/this year. The track is in ok condition, but is it really ready for heavy freight? Along the route near Clover Flat there was a 5 mph slow order, due to rock slides in the area. Maybe that was put in place by a nervous insurance carrier, just for the tourist trains.

MP

[lechee]

My dad used to truck freight from the verde valley to San Diego with a 1942 cheverolet 1 1/2 ton truck during the war. You can't believe what a trip that was, with a small engine, small gas tank, over heating , no air conditoning and grinding up the mountain at 6 to 10 miles an hour on a very small two lane road, it took forever to make one round trip ( oh) and no convenuce stores. Making the trip with my father gave me plenty of time to watch the trains as they left the imperial valley passing plaster city , crossing the highway and disappear into the mountains, at that time, little did I realize what lay ahead for them as they went up the mountain. They were probably having the same problems we were having with the small truck and the desert heat. Once in a while we would spot a train at Jacumba. This railroad has always fascinated me and is one of my favorites. I thank you all for your input.

[trains61]

There was a little blub somewhere about the museum running trains all the way to Plaster City from Campo this summer. It also spoke about renewing freight service, the reason for clearing out the tunnel. I hope to take this trip soon, if it is still availiable. I would suggest checking their website or calling them to confirm present operations.

[ChuckCobleigh]

I don't know whether the road has been kept up, although the same hiking friend did say that he had been out to Dos Cabezas about a year ago, but I don't know how far he drove in (he has an Explorer). I do know that if you drive in from Ocotillo on the dirt road (assuming it is still passable) to Dos Cabezas, you will see two pretty neat three-and-a-quarter degree loops (the first one is not quite a full 180 degree change of direction but the second one is almost exactly 180, sort of a mini-horseshoe curve) on the way out. As I recall, the first one is built up quite a bit and the second one is up against the mountain.

When I see what had to be done to get the railroad over those mountains, I just about laugh my posterior off when I hear one of our local congressmen talk about how they should build a bullet train between San Diego and the Imperial Valley so they could relocate the San Diego Airport (Lindbergh Field) out there where there is plenty of space. Yeah. Right.

[lechee]

Is Don Cabezas road kept up or would need a 4 wheel drive? On the map it looks like you could see some of the railroad at the end of carriso gorge.

[ericsp]

It appears that the brewery already uses rail.

http://www.sdrm.org/gallery/t-and-t/index.html

[vsmith]

Yes the Tecate brewery is named after the city of Tecate and I'm sure there would be some traffic from the Brewery, I beleive it is the largest business in the city.

[Anonymous]

Isn't the Tecate brewery in Tecate? Might that generate some shipments?

[ChuckCobleigh]

I suspect that the level of traffic they can realistically expect would not impact tourist train operations much. I recall that SP near the end of their use of the line didn't run a train every day between El Centro and San Diego.

Several months ago, the SD Union-Tribune ran an article on the pending operations and it sounded like they were mostly looking a bulk commodities like gravel and some agricultural products. US Gypsum has trucked wallboard west for many years from Plaster City because they could get it to SD and the LA area quicker that way. I don't know how many carloads UP gets otherwise from Plaster City and I don't think the new line would pick up any business. Eastbound traffic could be containers and automobiles, I suppose, to interchange with UP, as opposed to using BNSF to get out of SD.

Mostly, though, it seems to be a pretty thin business model.

[vsmith]

They re-opened the tunnel? Wow, thats news to me!

If they reactivate freight service what will that do to the tourist line? Close it down?

Will they retrack the line because even the track to SMRRM is using was in pretty poor condition. Running freights would necessitate at the very least reballasting and tie replacement?

I wonder how they will handle the border crossings? I would LOVE to take the trian trip through Carrizo Gorge, its by everything I've read one of most spectacular trips ever!

[ChuckCobleigh]

I had lunch with a hiker friend yesterday who goes out to the Carrizo Gorge area several times a year, and he said that they had finished the tunnel work earlier this year. Up to last year, you could hike the right of way with no hassles, but once the construction work got started, they got pretty nasty about it so you had to take a route somewhat distant from the right of way. Since the daytime temps will not be suitable for hiking for another two to four weeks, I don't expect to hear any further word on CG from him until then.

[MP57313]

Some of the exposed sections of the track were significantly damaged by a tropical storm in summer/fall 1976.

Whenever this line re-opens...if ever...I would hope they have good contacts with construction and maintenance firms. With the fires, tunnel cave-ins, and all the other headaches this line will be expensive to maintain. And as vsmith mentioned the cross-border immigration issues will just add to the headaches.

[vsmith]

The Carrizo Gorge RR looks like it will mainly run on the Mexico side of the Border from the San Diego crossing over to Tecate. The San Diego RR Museum tourist trains at Campos run from Campos to the trestle but as mentioned they cannot proceed anty farther until the tunnel is replaced or rerouted , the website states as as of Oct 2003 they were working to reopen tunnel 16, the one that closed the line. So maybe we will see some progress in the next couple of years. But given the hyper-sensitive paranoia about illegal immigrants on the US side of the border, I highly, highly doubt if true thru train service will EVER be allowed on the line with out long and lenthy delays at both border crossings.

[Anonymous]

http://www.carrizogorgerailway.com/

Seems to not be very active. They say that their excursion trains have been suspended while the three passenger cars are being restored. They also said that project should be completed by Spring of 2004! Looks like they missed that target date.

There are contact numbers on the web page if you are really serious about finding definite info.

Let us know if you discover anything interesting.

Good Luck!
Dennis

[vsmith]

I havent heard a peep about the tunnel being replaced. It was the first or second tunnel downgrade from the Carrizo Trestle, the wood lining caught fire back in the 60's or 70's burned thru and collapsed the tunnel. SP who was the owner by then, ceased operations on the line citing the cost to replace the tunnel was greater than the revinue the line was generating. It has been closed ever since as far as I know. Was that UP test train run ALL THE WAY trhu the canyon? Also Carrizo Trestle is the largest wood framed trestle in the world still standing, but like mentioned, I seriously doubt they would just roll a train over it without significant repairs and upgrades being made.

[slotracer]

LAst I heard the tunnel was collapsed and a major wood tressle ws in horrible condition, but that was a half decade ago.

When I worked for Uncle Pete we made at least one serious run on the marketing side to determine what business case could be made for getting he line re-activated. This was about 1998 or 1999. There was considerable business the UP handled into and out of San Diego but had to hand all of the traffic off to the BN as they are the only real freight access to San Diego. One major business piece being looked at was major Toyota or Honda new vehicle traffic at the port, but the curvature of the line vs the length of those cars was a concern. Intermodal double stack was also a major potenial business piece but tunnel clearance was a major concern.

I was involved due to many thousands of cars of soda ash and similar products I handled with my customer that went there to load to ships for export. It was the most viable in terms of cars that could manage the line, but took the product too many miles to reach teh port and we could no find a cost structure that would provide enough contribution on competitive rates to justify the expense to invest in the lines repairs. Since then the soda ash shipper closed the San Diego port and opened a new port in the LA region, almost 4 years ago. Once they started the effort to re-locate to the LA area, the traffic and revenue potential was lowered to the point the investment was no feasible. The project was about to be dropped before I transferred to another product area at UP and a year later I broke fee of Uncle Pete, have heard nothing about the line since.

[ChuckCobleigh]

From what I understand, the tunnel situation had been cleared up some time ago. As Mark notes, the big issue is clearance and the high curvature coming north of I-8 over the trestle and along the mountain.

BTW, there is no "on to Yuma" without taking the UP north to Niland and hooking up with the Sunset Route there. I suppose that the original plans of Spreckles was to take the line on to Holtville (which did occur with the Holton Interurban line) and thence across the dunes to Yuma, which would have been an adventure, to say the least. That never happened. The Sunset Route conveniently skirts the dunes to the east, whereas running track from Holtville east would involve 15-20 miles of construction and maintenance across dunes which are constantly shifting, great for off-roading, but a big pain in the neck for fixed transportation.

[vsmith]

So are they going to replace the tunnel? or are we talking about frieght service East from San Diego to Jacumba, just before Campos, and service West from El Centro to the base of the mountains. My understanding is that the tunnel replacement is a deal buster for replacing connecting service from San Diego to El Centro and on to Yuma.

[ChuckCobleigh]

The San Diego and Arizona Eastern Railway was purchased by the Metropolitan Transit Development Board in San Diego from SP on August 20, 1979. Kyle Railways was selected as the freight operator over the properties. (SP retained the trackage from Plaster City to El Centro in the 1979 deal.)

In 1984, Kyle gets out of picture and RailTex takes over as freight operator as San Diego and Imperial Valley Railroad.

Since then, some considerable work has gone on north of Jacumba on the Carrizo Gorge repairs, thanks to a federal grant. Still no word, though, of actual freight movements between San Diego and El Centro.

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

Carrizo (correct spelling note) Gorge will never be reused because one of the major tunnels is still collapsed from a tunnel fire decades ago. Rebuilding would require a very major new cut around the old tunnel or a new tunnel to replace it and so far no one wants to foot the bill. Currently the approach from Campos is clear and used by the excursion trains to the trestle, but just past the trestle is the collapsed tunnel. Do not know whether line is clear down to Calexico/Mexicali. It was a nasty grade going up and down, also another reason why UP (SP's new owner) has no plans to reactivate it. I agree though it would be a real eyepopper of a trip.

I thought SP sold that to Kyle Railways years ago. Was it just leased? If so, did the lease expire?

[vsmith]

Carrizo (correct spelling note) Gorge will never be reused because one of the major tunnels is still collapsed from a tunnel fire decades ago. Rebuilding would require a very major new cut around the old tunnel or a new tunnel to replace it and so far no one wants to foot the bill. Currently the approach from Campos is clear and used by the excursion trains to the trestle, but just past the trestle is the collapsed tunnel. Do not know whether line is clear down to Calexico/Mexicali. It was a nasty grade going up and down, also another reason why UP (SP's new owner) has no plans to reactivate it. I agree though it would be a real eyepopper of a trip.

[ChuckCobleigh]

You can check out the museum's website at http://www.sdrm.org/ for current details. They did cancel their Tecate excursion two weekends ago due to the wildfire.

Also, you can find the railroad's website at http://www.carrizogorgerailway.com/ although there isn't a lot of news on it. I also haven't seen anything on the website of The Imperial Valley Press about anything actually starting up, and I check that every day they publish (not on Saturdays for about 20 years, but every other day of the week).

[MP57313]

My plans are to get out there...some day. When a recent fire burned near Campo there was no mention of the museum rail equipment of the Rail line (I read the Union-Tribune on line). I have no idea if there are any regularly scheduled trains...

[lechee]

Thank You
I was sure hoping they would get the railroad going again. This is the railroad of all railroads. Nothing current on the internet , just allot of history.

[ChuckCobleigh]

Nobody seems to know. Nothing has been in the local Union-Tribune pages for months. I have friends who hike out in that area in cooler months, and one had been out there in the last month and didn't think they were moving anything yet.

[lechee]

Does anyone know the status of the corriso gorge railroad? Are they hauling any revenue freight yet ? It will be a great area for pictures. I took the short senic ride out of campo last year it was very nice. I hope someday they will open up the whole route for rail trips.