Judge Signs Off, Only Federal Approval Remains
Read all about it …
LINK: Press-Enterprise Internet News Clip
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
nice k.p.
i was actully signing on here to post this update, your version sure looks much nicer than mine would have so thanks for putting it up. cant wait to see the line being updated and used at more than 10mph and maybe one day making its way to hemet
ElCaminoManT (7-31):
Supposedly, actual work on the Perris Valley Line will start in October or November this year. In the past, I’ve tended to be by the line on an average of once a month. So, hopefully, I will be in a position to document some of the line’s upgrading.
Behind the scenes I’ve been doing research on the old California Southern route from Cajon Pass. It went through Perris and Railroad Canyon to Lake Elsinore, and then through Murrieta, Fallbrook, and on to Oceanside. While much of the line got totally washed out and obliterated in the late 1800’s, from aerials much of the other parts of the old right-of-way is visible even today, and the hope is to get out that way to photograph some of the historic right-of-way graded remains.
In that ‘behind the scenes’ research, I’ve found another route available that could blow the whole Perris Valley Line open big time! It could inspire tapping the old California Southern route to Fallbrook and Oceanside! But, I need to do field checking to verify the concepts.
Reaching Hemet is a viable option, so there are a lot of possibilities for future public rail commuting. Upgrading an old freight line is cheaper than building new freeways and some have seen that and are pushing for public money to get spent towards that end in-lieu-of new freeways.
I wonder, though, what the powers that be would do if they came to see what I’ve already figured out route-wise out of Perris. Especially when they realize how cheap it would be! Hopefully, in a month or two I’ll have photos for the forum to make its own assessment of the possibilities.
Best,
K.P.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Southern_Railroad
KP, route looks interesting, any idea how much of it is still in existence? Seams like most of these very old rail routes now have highways and housing developments on top of them
Have fun with your trains
vsmith (8-2):
Much of the old route from Oceanside to Fallbrook is discernible in aerials. It has been difficult to estimate the potential speed of that line if the same alignment of the route was relayed with track, but I suspect it would be semi-impractical for today’s modern higher speed commuter service.
The most serious problem, though, as has been pointed out by others at the forum, is that the old abandoned line goes through Camp Pendleton, a Marine Corps base, a branch of America’s national defense. So, from that perspective, a different route would seemingly need to be found in the Oceanside-Murrieta span. A possible route seems to be further southeast, a river route, but how practical that would be with today’s modern and technologically advanced surveying is unknown.
I hope to visit some of the old route relatively soon, and the forum may find of special interest pictures of what is still present or why a certain area is impractical today. The plan also is to make a cursory evaluation of a potential optional route that fast commuter trains of the future could use. It just strikes me, though, if such a new route came about, it would dramatically alter commuter traffic patterns, rail and highway.
Hot on my wish list of things to investigate and photograph is a potentially new route between Murrieta and Perris. Why surveyor Fred Perris didn’t use that possible new route in the 1800’s just baffles me since it appears so obvious, at least to me, but he must have had some reason.
Now that the Friends lawsuit that has been holding things up is settled, Mr. Perris’ old route though the Box Springs area north of March Air Reserve Base is supposed to have radical alterations to the hillsides take place to them. That should be something to see, if nothing else, in photos.
Your reference to Wikipedia about the locals between Fallbrook and Murrieta was stunning. I guess the area folks over a hundred and thirty years ago told the wrong people that the track would get washed out. The Fred Perris clan, who could change the route, probably snuck in and out of that desolate area before the few locals knew what was happening.
Take care,
K. P. Harrier vsmith (8-2): Much of the old route from Oceanside to Fallbrook is discernible in aerials. It has been difficult to estimate the potential speed of that line if the same alignment of the route was relayed with track, but I suspect it would be semi-impractical for today’s modern higher speed commuter service. The most serious problem, though, as has been pointed out by others at the forum, is that the old abandoned line goes through Camp Pendleton, a Marine Corps base, a branch of America’s national defense. So, from that perspective, a different route would seemingly need to be found in the Oceanside-Murrieta span. A possible route seems to be further southeast, a river route, but how practical that would be with today’s modern and technologically advanced surveying is unknown. I hope to visit some of the old route relatively soon, and the forum may find of special interest pictures of what is still present or why a certain area is impractical today. The plan also is to make a cursory evaluation of a potential optional route that fast commuter trains of the future could use. It just strikes me, though, if such a new route came about, it would dramatically alter commuter traffic patterns, rail and highway. Hot on my wish list of things to investigate and photograph is a potentially new route between Murrieta and Perris. Why surveyor Fred Perris didn’t use that possible new route in the 1800’s just baffles me since it appears so obvious, at least to me, but he must have had some reason. Now that the Friends lawsuit that has been holding things up is settled, Mr. Perris’ old route though the Box Springs area north of March Air Reserve Base is supposed to have radical alterations to the hillsides take place to them. That should be something to see, if nothing else, in photos. Your reference to Wikipedia about the locals between Fallbrook and Murrieta was stunning. I guess the area folks over a hundred and thirty years ago told the wrong people that the track would get washed out. The Fred Perris clan, who could change the route, probably snuck in and out of that desolate area before the few locals knew what was happening. Take care, K.P.
looking forward to your upcoming findings, K.P.
K. P. Harrier I hope to visit some of the old route relatively soon, and the forum may find of special interest pictures of what is still present or why a certain area is impractical today. The plan also is to make a cursory evaluation of a potential optional route that fast commuter trains of the future could use. It just strikes me, though, if such a new route came about, it would dramatically alter commuter traffic patterns, rail and highway. Hot on my wish list of things to investigate and photograph is a potentially new route between Murrieta and Perris. Why surveyor Fred Perris didn’t use that possible new route in the 1800’s just baffles me since it appears so obvious, at least to me, but he must have had some reason.
A couple of guesses on your route:
#1 Winchester to Murrietta roughly following Highway 79
#2 Perris to the western edge of Sun City then follow I-215 (Highway 395) to Murrietta
Your reference to Wikipedia about the locals between Fallbrook and Murrieta was stunning. I guess the area folks over a hundred and thirty years ago told the wrong people that the track would get washed out. The Fred Perris clan, who could change the route, probably snuck in and out of that desolate area before the few locals knew what was happening. Take care, K.P.
Stories that I've heard were that Fred Perris was told about problems with flooding, but disbelieved them due to the dryness of the area. According to the Wikipedia article, the storms that caused the 1884 washout dropped forty inches in a period of a month, which is an extraordinary amount of rain for SoCal. Fred Perris wasn't the only RR surveyor suckered into building a line up/down a normally dry streambed, witness the D&RG narrow gauge line to Westcliff built about the same time.
- Erik
The story of the washouts was that the native Indians, who had lived there for eons, told the rail builders about the floods in the canyon. The builders did not believe the Indians and built there anyway. Time proved the native Americans correct. Guess they had the last laugh.
The biggest problem with relaying the old route between Perris and Lake Elsinore is that part of the original ROW is now under a reservoir, any new connection would require a new ROW.
I have to admit the distance is only a few miles but there sure are not alot of options, almost any route would have to parallel major streets thru residential areas or use river washes, thats going to be a tough nut to crack.
I'm sure any route thru Temecula Canyon could be engineered safely for floods and thru Pendleton could be negotiated, afterall, be a good way to bring marines or recruits into the station.
Another Delay and a Tour
LINK: Press-Enterprise News Clip of September 3, 2013
More problems …
LINK: Now the Residents are Up in Arms
Hello Everyone,
Great info on the old California southern railroad!
Oceanside to Fallbrook:http://www.abandonedrails.com/Fallbrook_Branch
Elsinore to Perris:http://www.abandonedrails.com/Perris_to_Elsinore_Junction
Temecula to Corona:http://www.abandonedrails.com/Lake_Elsinore_Branch
Enjoy!
Construction CAN Start (with a Minor Catch)
The Press-Enterprise has three stores, linked below:
LINK: RCTC gets green light for Perris Valley Line (10-1)
LINK: TRANSPORTATION: Perris Valley Line gets green light (10-1)
LINK: BOX SPRINGS: Paving seeks to ease pain of crossing closure (10-2)
Hoopla for Monday, December 9, 2013
The Press-Enterprise newspaper says there will be a big announcement today, and that Perris Valley Line construction can start in two to three weeks.
LINK: News Story
PVL Timeframe … and Future Non-Timeframe Really Big Things Envisioned!
An announcement was made Monday, December 9, 2013. The highlights from the Press-Enterprise as interpreted by K.P.:
Ground breaking in January 2014, trains projected to be running in summer 2015
The future wye factor (K.P.’s terminology): One stem, Perris to Hemet and San Jacinto, another stem Perris to Murrieta and Temecula on a route that has never seen tracks, the very thing K.P. mentioned a few months ago.*
Non-PVL News: San Bernardino to Redland start construction 2016
LINK: The Press-Enterprise Article
____
* If ever Temecula is reached on a new right-of-way, K.P. perceives an effort to reach Oceanside will be made (it is just too tempting and logical), partly on old California Southern right-of-way.
Update as of Monday, February 3, 2014
Perris Valley Line
K.P. was dispatched to Hemet, CA, and on the way, along I-215 south of March Air Reserve Base, in the new Van Buren Blvd. overpass area, there was a bunch of new Continuous Welded Rail (CWR) stacked trackside along the future Perris Valley Line.
The new Van Buren Blvd. overpass appeared to be open with traffic traversing it, so as time permits, K.P. hopes to be able to walk up on the overpass in the next few months and take photos of that CWR, and get some photo views previously difficult or impossible to obtain.
Hemet, CA
Part I (of I-III)
K.P. had some free time in Hemet, a town he hadn’t been in except briefly for over 30 years. Those involved with the Perris Valley Line effort hope to eventually extend the line to Hemet and San Jacinto (to the north of Hemet). This will be a brief report on K.P.’s findings in Hemet.
The key east-west street in town is Florida Ave. From that street a view looking southwest:
Above, a trespasser is barely visible walking the right-of-way.
Little money has been put in the line in recent decades, and rail is even covered with dirt.
Continued in Part II
Part II (of I-III)
The old Santa Fe depot just north of Florida Ave.:
Somewhere around 1970 K.P. vehicle-passed this depot and it had two low hoods Alco B-B trucked units parked by it, on that curve.
This line is well known to both railfans and AT&SF railroaders as the San Jac for the town of San Jacinto several miles to the north.
A closer view of the curve and depot … Hey that is a rare depot on a curve!
The track is semi-buried heading towards the end of the line.
The above photos took some time to take, as intervals in chronic heavy vehicle traffic were few.
Continued in Part III
Part III (of I-III)
The very heavily traveled Florida Ave. grade crossing only has mere dilapidated crossbuck posts. And rusted too!
Metal posts were on their way out when K.P. was a kid! Maybe the powers that be should call this the Dinosaur Extension of the Perris Valley Line …
The depot is now a museum.
K.P. definitely wanted to visit the museum for a bit, but, it was a Monday of all days …
… Maybe another time …
What Perris Valley Line officials have in mind for a future station stop is unknown, but use of this ex-Santa Fe depot seems unlikely.
This will conclude the series.
Update as of Friday, February 7, 2014
In darkening light that made photography impractical, the Mt. Vernon Ave grade crossing in the Box Springs area of eastern Riverside was passed. Nothing track-wise was found to report. However, the grade crossing and Mt. Vernon Ave. itself had a lot of barricades present, and a sign said something to the effect that ‘utilities’ were being relocation.
A reshown daytime photo from the past of the Mt. Vernon Ave. grade crossing that looks physically east, or outbound. The line curves to the left, and out of view curves to go up a hill on the right:
Exactly why utilities would need to be relocation is unclear, as BNSF trains and predecessors have passed here for more than a century and a quarter without any problem. Perhaps the new Perris Valley Line will have a new big swooping curve through here necessitating some type of utility relocation.
Update as of Wednesday, February 12, 2014
Southbound on I-215 on the way to San Diego, the Gernet Rd. / Poach Rd. grade crossing was stopped at briefly, the grade crossing that will be eliminated during the construction of the Perris Valley Line. Those dirt roads were found to have been freshly paved! (Lower right)
The grade crossing must be on its last leg, because in was horrendously bumpy going over with an auto. Dirt was a couple of inches above the rails, but the railheads themselves were clear of dirt. Quite a strange sight to see!
Not too far south of Van Buren Blvd. a red-like full sized pickup truck decaled with the Ames “A” in gold lettering was seen trackside. Ames is the contractor for the Perris Valley Line construction.
At the Santa Teresa, NM the new facility Union Pacific is having built also has Ames as the contractor, and they use red trucks there also.
Ames apparently has different corporations under an umbrella organization. UP’s Sunset Route two-tracking in Niland, CA a few years back had an Ames corporation out of Scottsdale, AZ.
But, according to the press, the Ames outfit for the Perris Valley Line construction is out of Corona, CA. But, all the trucks wherever they work are all red with gold lettering.
At Long Last …
The Friday, February 21, 2014 Press-Enterprise had an excellent news article that the forum may be interested in. The material super briefly also touches on long-range thinking, of getting to Hemet and San Jacinto, plus a branching off line to Temecula!
ARTICLE LINK: Things Are Starting!
thank you for the updates, K.P.!
having grown up in hemet, its pretty sad to see how much the line thru town has deteriorated. as of right now, there is no way a train will make it past warren road on the west end of town. there are multiple areas were sections of rail are missing or broken. i think its been about 10 years since a train came to town, possibly longer. there were well cars stored on the line just west of warren road all the way into winchester for a while several years ago
Update as of Friday, March 7, 2014
Signs of the PVL along the I-215 Freeway
The old AT&SF line along the I-215 Freeway between Riverside and Perris is showing definite signs that the Perris Valley Line is coming! Some grading is present. Looking northwestward from Cajalco Expressway:
Southeastward:
The PVL will have a new, second track straddling the freeway.
Northwestward, closer to Cajalco Expressway, for an unknown purpose there is grading on both sides of the present line:
This is all not much, but it is the first real concrete sign the PVL is definitely coming now!
K.P.,
Thank you for the first of (hopefully many!) PVL updates. Glad to see something happening.
Update as of Friday, March 21, 2014
Some Views from Harley Knox Blvd.
Riverside County, CA
Part “A” (of A-C)
Looking north from the general east-west road called Harley Knox Blvd. There has been some grading for the future Perris Valley Line.
Continued in Part B
Part “B” (of A-C)
Two views with a southward bent, for Perris Valley Line outbound.
The fence separating the I-215 Freeway from the Perris Valley Line route has had a lower skirting added.
In the first photo in this Part “B” the Harley Know Blvd. south sidewalk is seen. Unlike some overpasses, this one has a sidewalk on each side of the street, making photography easy.
A note from a few weeks ago, it was hoped back then that a walk up onto the Van Buren Blvd. NEW overpass could be made. Unfortunately, while half the new overpass is open, the sidewalks are not open yet, and it doesn’t look like they will be anytime soon during this key time of the Perris Valley Line construction.
Continued in Part C
Part “C” (of A-C)
Looking north again, the side by side sidings between Harley Knox Blvd. and Van Buren Blvd. were empty, with no Intermodal cars stored on them as overflow from BNSF’s Intermodal Facility in San Bernardino. Reports are that the economy is improving, so well cars are not stored anymore, at least not on the Perris Valley Line.
Big concrete piping is present.
A makeshift grade crossing for contractor’s workers:
At this point in time it is unknown if the present old track will be relocated slightly, or remain in place.
While southbound on the I-215 Freeway K.P. did see what looked like new culvert cement-work in that new graded pathway somewhere between Van Buren Blvd. and Harley Know Blvd.
This will end the series.
Update as of Friday, May 16, 2014
Little that is Obvious
K.P. was involved in a rather unexpected dispatch on the above date deep into Riverside County, and on the way back followed the ex-Santa Fe Railway line from Perris to Riverside, including semi-through the Box Springs area.
Except for a concrete culvert or two, basically nothing stood out as new, except one thing: a bunch of Continuous Welder Rail (CWR) was spotted trackside between the Mt. Vernon Ave. and Blaine St. grade crossings, with the Box Spring Mountains in the background.
It is hard to believe a year from now Metrolink commuter trains will be quickly traversing this old, dilapidated branch line.
K. P. HarrierIt is hard to believe a year from now Metrolink commuter trains will be quickly traversing this old, dilapidated branch line.
I would agree! It will be interesting to see how work progresses for the rest of this year. Thank you as always for the pictures.
Update as of Monday, May 26, 2014
Perris Valley Line Happenings
Part “A” (of A-F)
On the above date, the old AT&SF San Jac line was followed along I-215 between Riverside and Perris. Little advances were seen. The few culverts observed, however, were now well along in the upgrading stages.
There looked to be an equipment staging area along I-215 more towards the Perris end.
Above, note the rails partially following the line now. They are semi-buried with dirt to the convenience of workers and their vehicles.
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