seafarer Presumably the tactics of those in opposition to coal trains are to repeat as many lies as they can get away with, for as long as they can, and eventually the rest of the population will believe the lies to be the truth.
Presumably the tactics of those in opposition to coal trains are to repeat as many lies as they can get away with, for as long as they can, and eventually the rest of the population will believe the lies to be the truth.
Politics in a nutshell.
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The powder river has close to 130 loaded trains per day.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
mogul264 What do these protesters REALLY want?
What do these protesters REALLY want?
mogul264
I think many would be termed reactionaries. They need to react. Currently, they've found nourishment with things environmental.
Ships carry ballast water when sailing in the empty condition for reasons of stability and to ensure that the propeller is immersed as much as possible when in the ship unloaded. Generally speaking ballast tanks are separate from both cargo holds and cargo tanks - there are exceptions but they are not very common nowdays.
To reduce the introduction of invasive species into coastal waters, a number of coastal states (including the US and Canada) require that ballast water must be discharged at sea and replaced with oceanic water (unless an approved ballast water treatment system has been fitted, which will allow the ship to discharge treated ballast water in harbour) hence the requirement to discharge ballast water more than 200 nautical miles off shore. Of course the law makers did not consider the safety aspects of conducting this type of operation off shore when they drafted the law - apparently the lives of seafarers are not so important in their eyes.
The suggestion that ships use oil as ballast is ludicrous given the cost of oil and the problem of where to pump it when the ship needs to be de-ballasted (oil normally is pumped ashore to an oil terminal which rarely, if ever, is located adjacent to a bulk cargo berth).
The location of ballast tanks is determined by the type of ship and the cargo to be carried. Having said that, all cargo ships will have double bottom ballast tanks (which are arranged below the holds and cargo tanks), while tankers and bulk carriers will have additional ballast tanks arranged along the ship's sides, just below the main weather deck.
While older bulk carriers may have fuel tanks fitted against the ship's side shell, newer ships have their fuel tanks set inboard of the ship's shell and thus are at much less risk of being breached and causing an oil spill in the event of a collision or grounding.The same is true for hydraulic and lubricating oil tanks.
While it is true that noise eminating from ships can be heard by marine mammels and fish, the noise level is not yet high enough to cause them to drown. What can kill whales is the high powered sonar used by the world's navys in general and the US Navy in particular.
henry6 Oh, yes, water is used as ballast, not oil...the water is pumped in and pumped out as balance is needed....
Oh, yes, water is used as ballast, not oil...the water is pumped in and pumped out as balance is needed....
Perhaps they are referring the fuel oil which is used in the engines for propulsion.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
mogul264 What do these protesters REALLY want? If we completely eliminate fossil fuel usage, should we then go back to WHALE oil? After all, there IS a need for illumination at night, or must we give THAT up, as well? Perhaps we should just go back to cave-men days! We would have to live on grass and seeds to satisfy them, as they CERTAINLY would NOT approve eating animals, or burning tree wood! It would DEPLETE the supply of trees, AND animals, STARVING natural carnivores! And the smoke would POLLUTE the air, and cause the oceans to rise, due to the haze causing global warming!
What do these protesters REALLY want? If we completely eliminate fossil fuel usage, should we then go back to WHALE oil? After all, there IS a need for illumination at night, or must we give THAT up, as well? Perhaps we should just go back to cave-men days! We would have to live on grass and seeds to satisfy them, as they CERTAINLY would NOT approve eating animals, or burning tree wood! It would DEPLETE the supply of trees, AND animals, STARVING natural carnivores! And the smoke would POLLUTE the air, and cause the oceans to rise, due to the haze causing global warming!
I would also bet that those same protesters also have no moral dilemmas turning on lights at home, or running their tv's or computers, or heating their ovens....
The irony is amusing.
There are those who hold exactly those positions. Of course, none of them are willing to lead by example.
Brendan,
Whereas you are right in regard that requirement to have double bottoms made large fleet of old single bottomed bulk carriers legally unacceptable to carry oil, there are no technical reasons why there cannot be double bottomed bulk carriers fulfilling legal requirements for carrying oil and other cargoes. You cannot see many of them around, because with ships life counted in tens of years, shipping industry has not rotated out old generation of bulk carriers yet. For more detailed explanation about class of ships I am writing about, please follow this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ore-bulk-oil_carrier .
Here's a thought! Why do we not just commit MASS GENOCIDE, and let the world go on without us? We've had TWO world wars, and many conflicts to perfect just how to do it! Would the protesters be satisfied THEN?
Coal ships can't carry oil, technically and legally. They have to ballast with water. Oil tankers have to be double-bottomed by law, and coal ships are still allowed to have just one. Coal ships are simply bulk carriers for the most part, and can pretty much carry any dry, bulk cargo as needed.
Petroleum is a whole other world when it comes to ships...
I think the 1% grade is before the new coal port. The rail line leaves the water at Bellingham just west of the old station and climbs up the bluff then across the flat lands through Ferndale WA and Custer where the branch to Cherry Point breaks off which would serve the new coal port. The branch line west of Mt. Vernon has been upgraded and so has the line through my town to Sumas WA where the CP and Southern Railway of British Columbia are connecting in Huntington, BC. The tough grade on that line is from downtown Sedro-Woolley to the Samish River. There are also two very tough curves on that line. When I walk my dog the train comes by north of me heading east, crosses the bridge right in front of me heading south and passed me to the south heading west.
We are also getting Bakken crude on the line west of Mt. Vernon in unit trains to a new unloading facility at the Tesoro refinery in Anacortes WA. There is also proposed a mega drink bottling center on an abandoned ex GN rail line where the grade comes off the line west of Mount Vernon but on Fidalgo Island in the city of Anacortes. This line was abandoned after the highway was modernized and rerouted so there is a highway bridge over the rail grade. The rail would be put back in to the bottling plant near the end of the old line which used to end at a log dump into the bay on the inside of the Strait of Juan de Fuca and of coarse on the calm waters east of Whidbey Island.
The Arco refinery in Ferndale near the proposed coal port has also applied to put in a crude oil train unloading facility.
So as you can see, my part of the world is becoming full of trains. The BNSF replaced the branch line GP30s, GP38-2s, and GP39-2s with GP40s, GP50s, and GP60Bs. I have to stop and look everytime a GP60B goes by.
Regarding water as ballast:
1. Ships do use water as ballast.
2. Because water used to ballast bulk carrier ships gets out of cargo holds contaminated (by residue oil or other stuffs) most nations (I believe USA too) requires and enforces policy, that ballast water has to be pumped out of ship in harbour and processed as industrial sewage.
3. Some ships can carry different bulk cargoes, including coal and oil. Therefore it is potentially possible to load coal in America's west shore harbour, make a revenue run across Pacific Ocean to some southeast Asia harbour, lets say Chinese Shanghai, as first leg of ships route; than go under ballast (made of water; this is equivalent of rail car running empty) relatively short trip to island of Borneo as second leg; get oil loaded in Borneo and make a revenue run importing this oil back to America, as third leg. And then repeat this over and over again.
the proposal is for the construction of a new coal port at Cherry Point WA about 100 mi. north of Seattle, near Anacortes. the joke is that coal trains use the mainline NOW on their way north to the Canadian coal port at Tsawwassen/ Point Roberts BC! the dea is to speed up the unloading by avoiding Customs delays and port fees, plus the 1% grade north ouit of Bellingham. the branch line west from Mt Vernon would have to be upgraded for about 10 miles. also the pt. roberts terminal is quite busy with Canadian coal from crows nest pass and hinton. .
It would take 1 week to 2 weeks of video recording all of the trains that pass through the area each day to prove that they are not causing traffic delays to automobile drivers.
They certainly believe in things that they never have seen, but their movement always say there is no spiritual life after death.
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
Curious John, coal trains headed for Prince Rupert are being handed off to the Canadians at Sweetgrass, MT, as well as Vancouver, BC. And not all of it is coming from the PRB. There's at least one symbol that moves coal from Grand Junction, CO, to the CP interchange at Sweetgrass.
It's indeed been a case of "get that coal to port whichever way it takes." From Laurel, MT, export coal trains can either head west on MRL to Sandpoint, ID, or north on BNSF to Shelby. From Shelby, coal can go north to Sweetgrass or west to Sandpoint. And west of Sandpoint, it's BNSF all the way down through Spokane, Pasco, Vancouver (WA), and up through Seattle. Keep in mind there are also coal trains moving almost daily to the powerplant at Centralia, WA, and several times a week to the powerplant near Boardman, OR.
As for overall traffic Laurel-Great Falls-Shelby, there's a daily manifest both directions (MLAUSHM and MSHMLAU), plus one or more coal trains (and empties) and one or more grain trains (and empties), as well as locals which work out of Great Falls. They can throw in an occasional baretable or ribbon rail train just to mix things up. Coal traffic varies depending on export demands. Grain traffic increases significantly from late summer into fall. However, the line's capacity is somewhat constrained due to 1 percent grades and being dark, TWC territory.
One, yeah, I would think anybody in the coal companies' employ would say diesels emit more bad stuff than a coal fired plant. It needs to be checked for accuracy.
And the Sierra Club has lost a friend here, too. In North Jersey they've come out against rebuilding the NJ Cut Off to provide passenger train service from Scranton, the Pocono Mts., and Northern NJ to the Metropolitan area in favor of Interstate 80...totally against all they've preached to me.
In the Adirondacks the snow mobiles and four wheel jockeys want more places to play. The fact that the RR could keep the environment clean, reduce highway congestion, bring in more tourist money with minimal invasion of wilderness, and create jobs is not considered by them, There are several "hotel" owners back in them woods who don't want to be found out...I'm sure.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
We've got a similar campaign going on here with some folks that want to lift the rails on the old NYC Adirondack Division.
They say that 22,000 people per year will use a 60 mile trail through the Adirondack forest with very limited access and no amenities. Only 25,000 visit the Olympic facility in Lake Placid each year.
The snowmobilers are all for it because the rails pose a problem unless there is enough snow. They aren't considering the "other shoe:"
It's been suggested that the true motive behind the effort is to return parts of the ROW to "wilderness" status, including keeping motor vehicles (read: snowmobiles) out of those areas. Of course, the proponents of the trail deny this...
Thank you for the article on the Port of Morrow. The coal trains to Prince Rupert, do they go on the ex GN Laurel Sidney line through Sweetwater than CP to Edmonton and CN to Prince Rupert or are they going on the ex British Columbia Railway N. Vancouver - Prince George - Prince Rupert?
That ex GN line through Great Falls. I've never seen an article on it. How heavy is the traffic today on that line. Harry Ladd in 1999 had it 10-19.99 ton-miles per mile. The Great Falls - Helena line I think is inactive. Is Garrison - Spire Rock BNSF? Will the Homestake pass line every go back in service?
I agree with your comments on the parks. We have the North Cascade National Park here and it is one of the least visited in the United States. There is a group that closely monitors the National Park Service to make sure that no amenities are provided at that park.
I found out that they do use water for ballast. They have a law administered by the WA State Dept of Fisheries that they have to conduct ballasting operations 200 miles offshore.
All this from SSA the outfit that wants to build the Cherry Port facility. They had a forum. A BNSF engineer said that for many years his assignment was a train from Ravensdale in your area to the Westshore terminal that the current coal trains operate from. I thought that mine closed during my father's time. He ran a coal and fuel supply business in Seattle during the 1930s. The business closed in the 1960s.
You know, I used to have a lot of admiration for the Sierra Club until they started trying to turn every wilderness area in this country into their own private preserve, or so it would seem to me. Sorry S-C people, but the national parks and related government owned areas are supported by us taxpaying plebeans, not environmental snobs. We've got the right to use 'em too, you know.
And stop yelling "oil is bad, coal is bad, gas is bad, nukes are bad, solar panels are eyesores and windmills kill birds', at least until you've got some viable alternatives. Right now you've got none. Period.
I talked to a friend of mine that is high up with management with Peabody that says that yes locomotives are more toxic than coal fired power plants.
Oh, I wouldn't say lies. But of fears, misconceptions, misinformation, and some ignorance. Some of them may actually believe what they are saying is true, and to an extent, there are some truth to what is said. It is hyped and shouted with authority so it can be construed as believable.
Thank you everyone for pointing out that the train opposition here in Washington has a campaign based on lies. Lies cause confusion and reduce trust and this is exactly what they want to do.
If Stevedore Services of America, the Longshore Union and the BNSF want to develop business they have to fight back which they are not doing. It sounds like the sand mine in Wisconsin had enough of a public relations campaign to win the battle. It's simple to fight back, just tell the truth. The truth wins. It's verifiable. And I think the person delivering the truth should be the CEOs and Union Presidents, together if that is possible.
Look at the Sierra's club website. It has three visions, beyond coal, beyond oil, and beyond natural gas.
They have the audacity to think they can take away our planes, ships, trains, automobiles, electricity, and heat.
"All empty ships are ballasted with oil so a major oil spill can happen if the ship collides or sinks."
This one puzzles me. Do oil tankers go back and forth full of oil? Isn't water cheaper?
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
dakotafred Yes -- the extremists would have us all heating our homes with buffalo chips, if they had their way. They are absolutist -- beyond compromise and gradualism. It's a waste of time trying to reason with them. They take encouragement from some of the politicians we elect -- useful to remember on Election Day.
Yes -- the extremists would have us all heating our homes with buffalo chips, if they had their way. They are absolutist -- beyond compromise and gradualism. It's a waste of time trying to reason with them. They take encouragement from some of the politicians we elect -- useful to remember on Election Day.
Well stated Fred. Be sure to VOTE folks!!!!!
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