Junctionfan That is true Henry6 but some lines I think were abandonned to avoid competition and customers being leeched. Good example in my opinion is the Canada Southern Line once operated by Wabash. In Ontario, Nanticoke (Esso Oil, Stelco Steel now I think owned by US Steel and a coal using power plant) alone could make a railroad a nice bit of revenue. At one point in St Thomas to Simcoe I believe, all auto parts or auto manufacturing such as Formosa Frames in St Thomas, Ford Assembly in Talbotville (closed down now unfortunately), a few fertilizer and milling operations including ConAgra I believe. Once upon a time, despite using CN trackage rights, NS used to run 4 trains from Buffalo to St Thomas every day and a couple between St Thomas and Detroit. Other major industrial areas once upon a time was Windsor and Niagara Region particularly Port Colborne with multiple milling operations, a bio diesel plant now running, chemical plant making citric acid, steel pipe manufacturing, INCO refinery and several transloading facilities mostly all serviced by a shortline (Triliium Railways). Besides NS or CSX purchasing the CASO to perhaps leech into CN and CP's revenues neer by, it is a very attractive intermodal route between East Coast and Chicago. Currently anything around here in Ontario, needs to go through CN or CP and ship their containers to Toronto/Brampton for terminal loading/unloading. NS has an intermodal yard in Buffalo (William Street) and I believe CSX built an intermodal terminal in their old defuct Seneca Yard I believe. At one point, Dain City (between Welland and Port Colborne Ontario) had an intermodal facility. If the CASO line was still in existence today, I wonder if NS and CSX would be leeching intermodal revenue from CN and CP as well as Dain City still being in service today.
That is true Henry6 but some lines I think were abandonned to avoid competition and customers being leeched. Good example in my opinion is the Canada Southern Line once operated by Wabash. In Ontario, Nanticoke (Esso Oil, Stelco Steel now I think owned by US Steel and a coal using power plant) alone could make a railroad a nice bit of revenue. At one point in St Thomas to Simcoe I believe, all auto parts or auto manufacturing such as Formosa Frames in St Thomas, Ford Assembly in Talbotville (closed down now unfortunately), a few fertilizer and milling operations including ConAgra I believe. Once upon a time, despite using CN trackage rights, NS used to run 4 trains from Buffalo to St Thomas every day and a couple between St Thomas and Detroit. Other major industrial areas once upon a time was Windsor and Niagara Region particularly Port Colborne with multiple milling operations, a bio diesel plant now running, chemical plant making citric acid, steel pipe manufacturing, INCO refinery and several transloading facilities mostly all serviced by a shortline (Triliium Railways). Besides NS or CSX purchasing the CASO to perhaps leech into CN and CP's revenues neer by, it is a very attractive intermodal route between East Coast and Chicago. Currently anything around here in Ontario, needs to go through CN or CP and ship their containers to Toronto/Brampton for terminal loading/unloading. NS has an intermodal yard in Buffalo (William Street) and I believe CSX built an intermodal terminal in their old defuct Seneca Yard I believe. At one point, Dain City (between Welland and Port Colborne Ontario) had an intermodal facility. If the CASO line was still in existence today, I wonder if NS and CSX would be leeching intermodal revenue from CN and CP as well as Dain City still being in service today.
bob811 Dare I add to this list, The Washington & Old Dominion right-of-way (now known as the W&OD Trail, under the auspices of the Northern Virginia Regional Park Authority). This old ROW runs from Purcellville VA to Alexandria VA, through some of the most densely built suburban development AND the heaviest and intense traffic in the mid-Atlantic region. Oh that they could ever bring tracks back to that corridor! More's the pity.
Dare I add to this list, The Washington & Old Dominion right-of-way (now known as the W&OD Trail, under the auspices of the Northern Virginia Regional Park Authority). This old ROW runs from Purcellville VA to Alexandria VA, through some of the most densely built suburban development AND the heaviest and intense traffic in the mid-Atlantic region. Oh that they could ever bring tracks back to that corridor! More's the pity.
Dare I add to this list, The Washington & Old Dominion right-of-way (now known as the W&OD Trail, under the auspices of the Northern Virginia Regional Park Authority). This old ROW runs from Purcellville VA to Alexandria VA, through some of the most densely built suburban development AND the heaviest and intense traffic in the mid-Atlantic region. Oh that they could ever bring tracks back to that corridor! What a boon to the commuting. More's the pity.
blue streak 1 D.Carleton They never thought the day would come. A couple of decades back a nurse who was a trail-head saw my railroadianna and voiced his support for the recent abandonment of the CSX Florida west coast sub and subsequent conversion to a trail. Is the west coast sub the old ACL from east of tallahassee - tampa? would be a great fill in if ever HSR atlanta - tampa.
D.Carleton They never thought the day would come. A couple of decades back a nurse who was a trail-head saw my railroadianna and voiced his support for the recent abandonment of the CSX Florida west coast sub and subsequent conversion to a trail.
They never thought the day would come. A couple of decades back a nurse who was a trail-head saw my railroadianna and voiced his support for the recent abandonment of the CSX Florida west coast sub and subsequent conversion to a trail.
Is the west coast sub the old ACL from east of tallahassee - tampa? would be a great fill in if ever HSR atlanta - tampa.
The "old ACL from east of tallahassee" was the Perry Cutoff from Thomasville, Georgia to Dunnellon and was lifted south of Metcalf, Georgia about the same time. The Perry Cutoff did not live up to expectations thus also does not make the "list" of viable pieces that should have been retained. (That does not mean I would not have it back...)
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D.Carleton [. They never thought the day would come. A couple of decades back a nurse who was a trail-head saw my railroadianna and voiced his support for the recent abandonment of the CSX Florida west coast sub and subsequent conversion to a trail.
[. They never thought the day would come. A couple of decades back a nurse who was a trail-head saw my railroadianna and voiced his support for the recent abandonment of the CSX Florida west coast sub and subsequent conversion to a trail.
ccltrains The Rails to Trails program is great. It preserves corridors should the need to lay rail would arise. But be aware. The bike and hike group are vicous. Just mention that you are planning to take a bike trail and convert it back to rails and all kind of things will come out of the woodwork argueing against it. To my knowledge no trails have been reverted to rails and i doubt if it could be politically accomplished.
The Rails to Trails program is great. It preserves corridors should the need to lay rail would arise. But be aware. The bike and hike group are vicous. Just mention that you are planning to take a bike trail and convert it back to rails and all kind of things will come out of the woodwork argueing against it. To my knowledge no trails have been reverted to rails and i doubt if it could be politically accomplished.
You are right. Even though the program is for the preservation of the rights-of-way for future use when the future does arrive several supporters are loathe to let go. They never thought the day would come. A couple of decades back a nurse who was a trail-head saw my railroadianna and voiced his support for the recent abandonment of the CSX Florida west coast sub and subsequent conversion to a trail. He could see by my body language that I was not on board and asked why. In return I asked, "What happens when we need to put the track back?" He replied, "Oh no. That will never happen. They tore out the track because they will never need it again." The lesson we learn boys and girls: Never say never.
(For the record I do not place the West Coast Sub on the list discussed in this thread. However, it would not hurt my feelings to see it back...)
capitollimited I think urban planners and the population of both LA and Chicago would like the Pacific Electric, The Chicago Aurora & Elgin as well as the Chicago North Shore and Milwaukee and their high speed lines. Some are being rebuilt at hundreds of millions of dollars and they were in place just a little over 50 years ago. As far as freight lines, most of the lines were redundant and most still are except for the few times a year when they needed a little extra capacity or a derailment shut one down. I think of all of the lines that were singled tracked and now are being double tracked again (almost all of the SP Sunset line, the B&O from Chicago to near Cleveland, etc.) that are probably better examples of extinct lines that are needed back.
I think urban planners and the population of both LA and Chicago would like the Pacific Electric, The Chicago Aurora & Elgin as well as the Chicago North Shore and Milwaukee and their high speed lines. Some are being rebuilt at hundreds of millions of dollars and they were in place just a little over 50 years ago.
As far as freight lines, most of the lines were redundant and most still are except for the few times a year when they needed a little extra capacity or a derailment shut one down. I think of all of the lines that were singled tracked and now are being double tracked again (almost all of the SP Sunset line, the B&O from Chicago to near Cleveland, etc.) that are probably better examples of extinct lines that are needed back.
In their heyday, North Shore, and CA&E probably gave service that was at least as good as their competitors (particularly when their competitors were steam powered and non-air conditioned). But in the modern era, when commuter railroads can't be operated profitably and require government subsidies, it makes little sense to retain (and subsidize) duplicate, competing rail commuter services.
Pacific Electric is a different matter. PE generally did not duplicate commuter services offered by conventional railroads. Rather, PE was the major rail commuter service provider in the LA Basin. When it expired, so did LA rail commuter service. Years later, Metrolink revived rail commuter service by instituting commuter operations on some conventional rail lines. The PE routes which have been revived as light rail lines (though not necessarily on the original alignments) are the routes to Long Beach, Pasedena, Redondo Beach, and Culver City (with Santa Monica coming in the near future). These lines do not duplcate other commuter rail services. PE also had many routes that were little more than long streetcar lines, which would not be very useful today.
mudchickenEd: The line currently is caught in a big game of keep-away.The outfit that has it out of service goes around the other two sides of a triangle to get to its connections in PIA. The outfit that wants it has a good sized yard at Champaign and would love to access an automobile plant and interchange at Peoria that it used to have over a tenuous excursion over some branchlines that it dumped thirty years ago. Traffic patterns changed and now PIA would be access to multiple AgEnergy and shortline partners.
I don't see why Canadian National would be interested in the old P&E to reach Mitsubishi Motor Mfg. of America at Normal. Traffic flows don't favor CN anyway.
NS is the OOS Mansfield-Bloomington segment because of a fiber-optic cable that runs along this route, though two ADM Grain Co elevators at Farmer City, served by CN, reportedly desire NS to serve them.
The NS/ex-P&E Mansfield-Urbana segment serves The Andersons' Rising grain and potash terminal, Emulsicoat's asphalt terminal in Urbana and Solo Cup Company (Dart Container), also in Urbana.
vonmazur Around here in B'ham, rumor is that the CSX is kicking themselves for abandoning the former SCL from B'ham to Atlanta. Supposedly there are negotiations going on with the ATN for making an arrangement to run on the existing line and restoring the east end to Atlanta. It was saved as the "Silver Meatball" Rail Trail. I do not know if this is really going to happen, but I do know that CSX is very unhappy with running all the freight from ATL to BHM via the current round about route thru GA.... I would like to see some of the former NYNH&H lines restored, like the Maybrook for example... Dale in Birmingham
Around here in B'ham, rumor is that the CSX is kicking themselves for abandoning the former SCL from B'ham to Atlanta. Supposedly there are negotiations going on with the ATN for making an arrangement to run on the existing line and restoring the east end to Atlanta. It was saved as the "Silver Meatball" Rail Trail.
I do not know if this is really going to happen, but I do know that CSX is very unhappy with running all the freight from ATL to BHM via the current round about route thru GA....
I would like to see some of the former NYNH&H lines restored, like the Maybrook for example...
Dale in Birmingham
There was also talk about shedding the tax liability of that route at the time, costs of operating over two separate helper districts, etc. BNSF has reportedly made efforts in recent years to get MRL back, now that it's an important bridge for coal, intermodal and manifest business to/from the lower Midwest, and a vital detour route whenever the northern transcon is hampered by trackwork, derailments, snow, or floods.
MP173 Bruce:Although not abandoned, what is the BNSF's attitude toward Montana Rail Link? It seems as if that SHOULD be part of the BNSF map. Was that a blunder also? Or has it worked well?Ed
Bruce:Although not abandoned, what is the BNSF's attitude toward Montana Rail Link? It seems as if that SHOULD be part of the BNSF map. Was that a blunder also? Or has it worked well?Ed
MRL came into existence for a variety of reasons, both operational and legal. At the time, the route was excess capacity for through freight, and BN was willing to spin off the local freight operations since much of it would be interchanged with BN anyway. I believe that there were also some questions about the bonds that were secured by that line that scared BN's legal and financial staffs.
I agree with wishing the Western Maryland was still on the map between Cumberland and Connellsville. I wish the whole WM was still intact.
The question of which abandoned lines would look good on a map today can easily prompt answers that are of virtually no use to today's railroading but would surely thrill the railfans. The NP (and later BN) climb over Lookout Pass on the ID/MT border comes to mind, with 4 percent grades and hairpin loops and large timber trestles. I suppose in the same vein, reopening Idaho's Camas Prairie line up through Lapwai Canyon, and relaying track from Lawyer's Canyon all the way to Grangeville again, would be mighty exciting. Just not very cost effective, considering how much of the area's grain haul was being trucked to barge terminals even before the line's abandonment.
But if one route could offer the best of both worlds, a place with tremendous photographic potential AND vital purpose to a Class I or regional, it would be the former SP&S between Spokane and Pasco, mentioned a few threads above. More precisely, it's the stretch between Fish Lake and the eastern outskirts of Pasco. Active and retired people from BN and BNSF, including the late Bob Downing, have told me that the abandonment of the SP&S High Line was a huge oversight, and that BNSF wishes it had that property back in service today. It would be the perfect piece to plug back into a Northwest network that hauls so much unit grain, coal, and now oil traffic toward the Pacific Coast. From South Cheney, WA, it was pretty much downhill or dead level all the way down to Pasco. Same qualities as the surviving SP&S segment which BNSF uses from Pasco west along the Columbia River.
Not so nice. The track would run through the Hoosier Valley Railroad Musuem's repair shop. In addition, the Knox Port Office (good luck with that) and several service stations in Wlakerton. Rallyi a lost cause. There has been some discussion of building a line from Wiheatfield to La Crosse, then on the the connection with NS at Thomaston, possibly with CSX at Union MIlls.
Rule G
Fred:NS is only running 1 daily each way from Elkhart to the BNSF at Streator. The boxcar freight has really declined over the years. The routing is Elkhart - CP501 to IHB to Schneider, In (where it makes a right hand turn joining the Kankakee Belt) and then to Streator. NS has other freight on the line, primarily UP coal trains down to Wheatfield, often 2 loads and empties per day.
Intermodal doesnt really work on the line, primarily due to the tight curve at Streator coming off the Santa Fe.
It sure would be nice seeing freights rumble thru North Judson tho.
Ed
In the late 50's Train Magazine had the opinion that the Kankee brancb of the New York Central would be doube tracked. At that time it saved the NYC 1 1/2 days getting a boxcar from Steater, IL to Elkhart, IN. With the congestion around Chicago, I'll bet NS just wishes it was still there.
I totally second the S line as a shortcut Richmond-Raleigh, mainly benefiting SE corridor passenger, but also some freight relief for CSX from the busy A line via Rocky Mount, as mentioned.
Two other candidates, mainly because of superior engineering (curvature/gradient) versus what remains:
- SP&S Spokane-Pasco
- WM Connellsville-Cumberland
I would like to see rail re-installed on the Seaboard "S" line between Petersburg, VA and Norlina, NC. It would mainly benefit passenger rail, but I also heard that if it was rebuilt, CSX would be interested in renewed freight service along the I-85 corridor.
.....As Murrary stated, I wonder about the Milwaukee's Pacific extension....I'm thinking that I've read in railroad media along the way....that route was one of the best engineered across that long stretch and mountain ranges. Perhaps another line runing that length and direction might have benefited by adapting to it....
Item: And Kevin, I like your photos of the B&O line across that area....Does seem a shame that route was destroyed.
Quentin
I would have loved to have seen the former B&O route through what used to be Moonville, Ohio when it was still in use.
It was hard to believe on my visit last May that it's only been 24 years since this route was taken up.
Kevin
http://chatanuga.org/RailPage.html
http://chatanuga.org/WLMR.html
I would like to see the Lehigh Valley line between Pittston, PA and Waverly, NY upgraded back to a thru route. Reading Northern owns the southern segment (and the ex-LV continuing to the south), and a shortline operates the northern segment. I was disappointed that Reading Northern didn't get control of both segments to keep the route intact. I think NS kept trackage rights.
NS was planning on moving Harrisburg-Buffalo traffic off the Keating Summit line to the ex-Erie southern tier line. To get from Scranton to the southern tier, they contributed toward capacity upgrades on the D&H Clark Summit/Tunkhannock Viaduct line. This was in spite of the fact they owned and leased the ex-LV line, which was a water level route, and shorter. I hope they keep the route as a back-up for the D&H route (ex-DL&W) with its two 100 year old concrete viaducts.
This is the sort of "what if" exercise that has ruined many a night's sleep.
That said, many north-south lines in the Midwest, specifically in Indiana and Ohio, were abandonded with the formation of ConRail. The PRR from Chicago to Cincinnati was the fastest route and called the "passenger line." The majority of the PRR from Pittsburgh to Chicago via Columbus was abandoned west of Columbus. Both of these would have fit very nicely with today's Norfolk Southern. Unfortunately the problem back then was "too much track" and I cannot fault the decision makers of the day for what they kept and what they let go.
The LV west (north) of Van Etten, NY is gone as a through route with a few double deadends between Geneva an Buffalo but is fairly intact from Oak Island to VanEtten but under several differrent owners and operators. LIikewise the Erie/EL is chopped up into similar unattached segments west of the Meadville/Youngstown area to Chicago. The DL&W/EL is missing a line segment in NJ from Port Morris to Slateford, PA although NJT has ownership of the ROW and in fact is laying a 7 mile section of track west from Port Morris to Andover and hopes to build to Slateford. The Erie from Meadville and Buffalo east is intact but under different owner/operators and leases to Hoboken, NJ (but freight only as far as the NJ Meadows/Jersey City area).
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Murray We need back: 1 - The Lehigh Valley 2 - The Erie Lackawanna 3 - The Milwaukee Road (back to the Pacific Northwest)
We need back:
1 - The Lehigh Valley
2 - The Erie Lackawanna
3 - The Milwaukee Road (back to the Pacific Northwest)
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
blownout cylinder I'd love to see The Rock back as well...
I'd love to see The Rock back as well...
Most of the Rock Island never went away: Chicago-Omaha is now Iowa Interstate; Kansas City-Tucumcari, Minneapolis-Kansas City and Kansas City-Fort Worth are part of Union Pacific, plus an assortment of short lines elsewhere.
Thanks Mudchicken....so the outfit with the yard in Champaign would like the auto traffic out of Normal and the current owner keeps them out.
The outfit with the yard in Champaign accesses Peoria now via Decatur. ADM is a huge shipper both in Decatur and Peoria.
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