As I often point out, each railroad is different and their terminology is different, too. I've heard guys say they have to get qualified others get cleared, others get briefed, etc. I've heard the terminology from both the engineer and the supervisor be he TM, Road Foreman, superintendent, or GM.
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Henry6, as a railroader for nearly 40 years, I never once saw anyone come out to qualify an engineer on any certain type of locomotive nor did I ever get qualified myself when new models came out. What I did get qualified on was the radio control trains with mid-train power that Norfolk Southern once ran.
On New York City Transit you do have to qualify to run the new technology trains, Especially on the (L) train where everything is automated and the wayside signals have largely disappeared. But in the old days, once you were qualifies for SMEE equipment, you could run anything.
Yo do have to qualify for the lines that you are running on.
ROAR
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BaltACD tree68: One problem with vintage locomotives is that sometimes the labels for some of the controls are either very cryptic, painted over, or gone... Someone may have pencilled in a hint. Too, sometimes things get repurposed, so the circuit breaker that did this when the locomotive was new now does that. I suspect the biggest problem for engineers trained on today's locomotives coming to your property would be dealing with the engines that have manual transition.
tree68: One problem with vintage locomotives is that sometimes the labels for some of the controls are either very cryptic, painted over, or gone... Someone may have pencilled in a hint. Too, sometimes things get repurposed, so the circuit breaker that did this when the locomotive was new now does that.
One problem with vintage locomotives is that sometimes the labels for some of the controls are either very cryptic, painted over, or gone... Someone may have pencilled in a hint.
Too, sometimes things get repurposed, so the circuit breaker that did this when the locomotive was new now does that.
I suspect the biggest problem for engineers trained on today's locomotives coming to your property would be dealing with the engines that have manual transition.
At this point, that's only one, an RS3 (which also has a 6 brake). I'm familiar with it, but I won't claim to be an expert. I've been running the oldest unit - a GM&O F3, but it's been upgraded to an F10, so the innards are reasonable up-to-date, with an AAR control stand.
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tree68 One problem with vintage locomotives is that sometimes the labels for some of the controls are either very cryptic, painted over, or gone... Someone may have pencilled in a hint. Too, sometimes things get repurposed, so the circuit breaker that did this when the locomotive was new now does that.
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While the basics are all very similar, sometimes controls for accessories can be placed in widely varying areas. Sometimes it isn't from the builder, but from the company shop itself.
One accessory that I'm familiar with is cab signals. Actually two different types. The procedures for cutting them in or out are similar, but depending on age of the engine the actual controls can vary.
Some have both an electrical switch to turn on the system and an air valve for the enforcement gear. Some of the older engines equipped this way is where it sometimes gets interesting. Depending on model, the switch and valve usually will be fairly close together. Some (on older wide nose engines) will have the switch in the inner nose compartment, the air valve in the outer nose compartment.
One time I had a SD40T-2 that had been refitted with the exCNW ATC cab signals. The engine was one with the long nose that originally had the early versions of DP. I found the electric switch. It was down in the nose in the toilet compartment. I had a devil of a time trying to find the air valve. I knew it had to have one because the switch didn't have a seal or place for one. Integrated switches have a place for a seal once they've been tested. Where there is a separate air valve, it gets the seal, the switch doesn't. I finally went outside on the longer short nose and found a small front door that goes into a small compartment where the locotrol gear used to be. I thought they certainly wouldn't put the air valve where you had to leave the cab to get to one half of the controls, but I was out of options. Of course I found the valve inside that small compartment. (Frequently we cut this out on the move. The procedure is to cut out the air valve, then turn off the switch. That's why the controls are usually close to each other.) We were still in ATC territory so I didn't cut it out. I was expecting to be moved out of it to where (we were at a junction) the relieveing crew would take it from us.
Instead, the relief crew shows up before we move. I'm telling the outbound engineer where the air valve is located. That to cut it out, first you go outside along the nose into the little compartment in the front to cut out the air valve, then go inside the cab and down into the toilet compartment to shut off the electrical switch. He has about the same time on the railroad and on the left hand side as I do so he's kind of like, "yeah, yeah, I'll find it." We leave and are about 10 miles away when we hear them calling us, "Where did you say that air valve was?"
Jeff
I still have a mimeographed copy of an about 20 page instruction manual the Santa Fe gave to engineers in the late seventies to explain how the wheel slip control worked on the GP40x units (3800s). These units were the first with radar that sensed the ground speed and then adjusted the current to the traction motors in case of wheel slip, which would cause some confusion I would guess if an engineer wasn't sure what was happening. The GP40Xs were the precursors to the GP50, which is ultimately considered a failure (but not because of the wheel slip control, they upped the RPMs on the 645 to increase the HP and it shook the units to pieces is my understanding) .
I know that the tendency is to be super deferential with the people who actually know how to operate an engine (just as it is with truck drivers in my own experience) and I know that a person in a tie telling an engineer who has been running them for twenty years how it works would be laughed at, but there is nothing wrong with sending a tech guy out from the builder to say "this works differently now".
If you're qualified to run one locomotive you can run em all, except steam. That's the company's stance on the issue. NO we dont get manuals to look at, NO we dont have a representative come out and show us how to crank it. We learn by our co workers teaching us and through our own experiences with new equipment. If we have a question we can call the help desk. I know of several situations where someone ran a different model loco for the first time and didn't destroy it. It's common sense.
A properly delivered new, and often used car, gets a sit down tour while you are behind the wheel so that you are familiar with all the gadgets, etc...sometimes, yes, pretty basic and boring...but I think it is done as much to inform you as it is to impress you and to take care of their liabilty. As for locomotives, no, it is a lot more than reading the manuel. If I were the owner of a million dollar machine that I was giving to an employee to operate for me, I sure as hell would want to be sure he knew the machine well enough not to destroy it, misuse it, abuse it, but operate it with safety and respect. It kinda makes sense, don't it?
henry6 The manufactureres go out of their way to send technicians and instructors to brief all about new locomotives. Just like all they go through when you buy a new car. Yes, engineers have to be cleared if not anything else, after being at least briefed about the nuances of a new locomotive. Otherwise it would be irresponsible to assume any engineer fully knows and understands what he has...even a good engineer, or especially a good engineer, would agree and understand what I'm saying.
The manufactureres go out of their way to send technicians and instructors to brief all about new locomotives. Just like all they go through when you buy a new car. Yes, engineers have to be cleared if not anything else, after being at least briefed about the nuances of a new locomotive. Otherwise it would be irresponsible to assume any engineer fully knows and understands what he has...even a good engineer, or especially a good engineer, would agree and understand what I'm saying.
I have not bought all that many "NEW" cars, but of the few that I have purchased, I have NEVER had any technicians or instructors brief me about my new car! Buried in the glovebox is an "Owner's Manual" that covers in detail things I already know, but skims over about half of what I really need to know and then explains in great detail about all the options "MY" new car does not have (or even know I could have purchased!).
I assume new locomotives come with an "Engineer's Manual" and the 1st Engineer to get in the cab gets a chance to take it home to read after he has run the train several hundred miles, but the 2nd Engineer only gets to read the mail-in warrantee postcards if the 1st Engineer happens to leave them in the plastic bag the manual came in. (And the 3rd Engineer gets to use the plastic bag as a waste basket.)
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
A comparison that may be the basis of this thread: In aviation, you have to be licensed to fly a particular type of aircraft (MD80, 757, A340, etc.); in railroading, the operating license is for any equipment but you have to maintain a qualification for specific routes.
So in the end, the gas pedal, brake pedal, and the turn signals are all in the same place, you just have to get used to the way it shifts, and reset the radio stations?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
edblysard Murphy, As Larry pointed out, if you can drive a Ford Pinto, you can drive my Dodge Challenger RT...one is just faster than the other, but they work the same.
Murphy,
As Larry pointed out, if you can drive a Ford Pinto, you can drive my Dodge Challenger RT...one is just faster than the other, but they work the same.
True, but after driving the Challenger you might rather walk than get back into a Pinto
Generally, if you have an engineer's card, you are qualified.
Thankfully, I don't have to deal with desktop control stands at this point, and hopefully for a long time. We do too much switching for those to be effective.
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beaulieu The biggest thing now is DPU qualifications, not every crew even on most Class Is is DPU qualified.
The biggest thing now is DPU qualifications, not every crew even on most Class Is is DPU qualified.
Once I was relieved for HOS by a crew called off the long pool at Clinton, IA because they didn't have any rested crews on the extra board or short pool. The long pool handles mostly intermodal and automotive type traffic. We had a DP coal train, at that time most were still conventional. The engineer said he had never run a DP train before. When he found out we were a DP train, he notified the proper authority. They gave him the DP manual and sent him out to get us.
In a word, no...notch 8 on an old GP38 is the same as notch 8 on a SD70M or a Dash 9, the train behind will act the same no matter what locomotive is up front, about the only need for any other certification besides a federal license is the one required for steam locomotives.
Beyond that the controls on all diesels in use today are fairly standard...the layout /location differences between a desk top and a standard control stand don't make a bit of difference, they work the same and preform the exact same function.
The desktop can and does give you more information, but the way the locomotive works is still pretty basic.
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23 17 46 11
Generally speaking, it's not the big stuff, it's the little stuff. Pretty much every locomotive has a throttle, reverser, automatic and independent brakes. Nowadays they've all got dynamics. If you can handle one locomotive, you can handle them all.
On the other hand, moving between locomotives is not much different than moving between cars. I'm sure everyone has been in the situation of getting into a strange car and trying to figure out where all of the controls are (wipers, dimmer, etc). You know they're there, but where?
We're running vintage locomotives - a rebuilt F that was new in 1947, an RS3 (1950), a GP9 (1959), and a couple of early 60's RS18u's. Aside from the 6 brake and manual transition in the RS3, they're all similar - you just have to check on where the wipers and dimmer are...
On my carrier, there is no specific qualification that pertains to any particular engine type. New engineers coming through the company's engineer training program are educated on all the varieties of locomotives and their various control stand differences...the company is running everything from GP 15's and SW 15's to the latest AC's and virtually everything in between and company uses run-through power from all connecting carriers and some power that is 2 or 3 interchanges removed from their home road.
The control stands and brake schedules for the general classes of locomotives are basically the same for all carriers using that general class.
The biggest hurdle engineers had to surmount was the change from the standard AAR control stand to the computer screen control stands. When these types of engines were new, Road Foremen of Engines received prior training on them and did familiarization rides with engineers currently working to explain the in's and out's of the new technology. Beyond that, the engineers rely on the skills they have learned over the years. Changes as newer power comes on line is evolutionary rather than revolutionary.
I cannot speak for engineer on short lines who's normal power is of the GP/SD 40 era and what they are faced with when a Class I's latest power ends up on the short line for it's handling of a specific train.
By all means, yes.
I understand, that an engineer would need to be qualified to run over a certain territory. Do engineers also need to be qualified, before running a certain kind of locomotive? A local regional railroad, the Dakota & Iowa has a fleet of a couple dozen Geeps, and maybe 2 SD40-2's. Recently, there was a pair of UP SD70M's pulling a D&I train on the line. It was suggested that a D&I crew was probably running the train. Would that engineer, or any enigineer for that matter, have to qualify running an SD70M, or what-have-you, before running a train?
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