Los Angeles Rams Guy All I can say is that something's gotta be done to keep the SW Chief on the Raton Pass mainline route. Without the SW Chief, SE Colorado and northern NM communities are left with virtually ZERO transportation options. Mudchicken has done an excellent job of explaining how NM has been a big failure in all this but I place even more blame on the totally inept CDOT. The Raton Pass mainline is also vital for future service coming out of Denver to connect with SW Chief at both La Junta and Trinidad.
All I can say is that something's gotta be done to keep the SW Chief on the Raton Pass mainline route. Without the SW Chief, SE Colorado and northern NM communities are left with virtually ZERO transportation options. Mudchicken has done an excellent job of explaining how NM has been a big failure in all this but I place even more blame on the totally inept CDOT. The Raton Pass mainline is also vital for future service coming out of Denver to connect with SW Chief at both La Junta and Trinidad.
Twenty million (and two million per year thereafter) is small potatoes for Kansas to maintain rail service (both freight and passenger) for the entire southwestern part of the state. After the old MP line to Pueblo was removed the Raton Pass line is virtually all there is. With the Heartland Flyer they could postpone the expense without any track being pulled up, but not necessarily in this case. We'll see, but as this Bob Johnston piece noted discussions are underway.
daveklepper That is why I limited to only 20 trains a day each way. The other four each way are for existing traffic. You are correct, the maximum capacity is 24 trains each way each day, and this of course requires sharp dispatching and best use of passing sidings on a single track line. Some staging might be necessary both at Roper in Denver and at Grand Junction, but the yard capacity is there.
That is why I limited to only 20 trains a day each way. The other four each way are for existing traffic. You are correct, the maximum capacity is 24 trains each way each day, and this of course requires sharp dispatching and best use of passing sidings on a single track line. Some staging might be necessary both at Roper in Denver and at Grand Junction, but the yard capacity is there.
The other constraint on the Moffat is that it does not have the clearances for double stack. They could go by the UP Wyoming mainline.
That's part of the problem with the existing Southwest Chief route, not enough people live in that area to justify the service and not enough shippers exist in the area to justify much more than the occasional local freight. Everybody wants the Southwest Chief on its current route but nobody wants to pay for it.
DwightBranch Such an agreement being negotiated, BNSF says that around $100M is needed in immediate repairs, and then around $10M per year thereafter, and that they would agree to a five-way split (AMTRAK, the three states, and BNSF). I think part of the issue will be what individual states will pay based on mileage. There is an article in this month's Trains detailing the negotiations. Regarding rerouting trains: the Moffat Tunnel route (which I lived near and my parents still live near in Pinecliffe CO) is limited by the need to blow out the Moffat Tunnel, which takes about half an hour, so the number of trains is limited.
Such an agreement being negotiated, BNSF says that around $100M is needed in immediate repairs, and then around $10M per year thereafter, and that they would agree to a five-way split (AMTRAK, the three states, and BNSF). I think part of the issue will be what individual states will pay based on mileage. There is an article in this month's Trains detailing the negotiations. Regarding rerouting trains: the Moffat Tunnel route (which I lived near and my parents still live near in Pinecliffe CO) is limited by the need to blow out the Moffat Tunnel, which takes about half an hour, so the number of trains is limited.
From reading the Trains article, I did not get a sense that these were negotiating sessions, but instead were notification by Amtrak and BNSF that they needed to come up with big money or the train would be rerouted. As stated in the article, all 3 states would need to come up with their share.
As I recall, Kansas nixed the money to extend the Heartland Flyer into the state. Why would they spend the money on the Chief when Amtrak will reroute it for free thru Wichita which has a larger population than all the other cities combined in Kansas to be bypassed.
Colorado may have shown some support for it, but they have higher priorities in the Front Range and I-70 rail corridors and Denver transit.
New Mexico has been somewhat hostel to government funded passenger rail lately, and if the Chief was rerouted thru Belen, they might even get the feds to help pay for operating the RoadRunner connection to Albuquerque and Santa Fe (which they would like to shutdown otherwise).
I just does not seem likely that all the states will fall into place.
daveklepper I think we may see the Cheif running through Amerillo pretty soon. A shame, I agree. If the towns along the Raton Pass line want to keep the Chief, they ought to consider forming a transit district with taxable powers and ;have their own authoritiy to buy and maintain the line. Otherwise we me see Ralrunner shut down also.
I think we may see the Cheif running through Amerillo pretty soon. A shame, I agree. If the towns along the Raton Pass line want to keep the Chief, they ought to consider forming a transit district with taxable powers and ;have their own authoritiy to buy and maintain the line. Otherwise we me see Ralrunner shut down also.
(1) The counties involved in NM are some of the poorest in the state (San Miguel [Las Vegas] is at the top of that list.)
(2) The problem with a transit district is that you need fairly good population density to make it work. Population in that country is sparse and in steady decline since WW2.
(3) New Mexico RailRunner is a perfect example of what's wrong with politically driven mass transit. It deserves to fail. A lot less money could have been spent using existing plant, including the SFe Branch and you would have had the same or better utility & level of service.
The Transcon is as vulnerable to a "castastrophe" between Barstow and Belen as it is between Belen and points east. UP has simailar vulnerabilities. Both have plans in place to deal with them including cooperation with each other as needed. This in addition to the trackage rights that are in place for normal operations.
The latest TRAINS has a story about the SWC continuance on its present route. I suspect that a way will be found to keep it there, perhaps with subsidies from the States of KS, CO and NM. and Federal funds earmarked for just this purpose.
daveklepper Note that BNSF does have trackage rights west from Denver over the UP's Moffat line and the SP-WP combination into California. If the very unlikely shutdown of the Transcon were to happen, traffic would be rerouted that way, up to about 20 trains a day each way, which could be handled in addiiton to existing UP traffic, and some would be handled by the UP on the Cotton Belt, Rock, and Sunset routes. Stuff not at all time sensitive would probably get shifted to the Great Northern and the Inside Gateway. The rerouted trains will have plenty of local crewmen to act as pilots if not actuallyi running. I think we may see the Chief running through Amarillo pretty soon. A shame, I agree. If the towns along the Raton Pass line want to keep the Chief, they ought to consider forming a transit district with taxable powers and ;have their own authority to buy and maintain the line. Otherwise we me see Ralrunner shut down also.
Note that BNSF does have trackage rights west from Denver over the UP's Moffat line and the SP-WP combination into California. If the very unlikely shutdown of the Transcon were to happen, traffic would be rerouted that way, up to about 20 trains a day each way, which could be handled in addiiton to existing UP traffic, and some would be handled by the UP on the Cotton Belt, Rock, and Sunset routes. Stuff not at all time sensitive would probably get shifted to the Great Northern and the Inside Gateway. The rerouted trains will have plenty of local crewmen to act as pilots if not actuallyi running.
I think we may see the Chief running through Amarillo pretty soon. A shame, I agree. If the towns along the Raton Pass line want to keep the Chief, they ought to consider forming a transit district with taxable powers and ;have their own authority to buy and maintain the line. Otherwise we me see Ralrunner shut down also.
diningcar By not maintaining the old TRANSCON, BNSF may be missing out on a safety valve. Should the new TRANSCON be shut down due to a catastrophic wreck spanning all tracks, operations could at least route some time dependent freights on the Lamy-Trinidad segment. ...
By not maintaining the old TRANSCON, BNSF may be missing out on a safety valve. Should the new TRANSCON be shut down due to a catastrophic wreck spanning all tracks, operations could at least route some time dependent freights on the Lamy-Trinidad segment. ...
Their safety valve is the collection of UP routes to LA.
Someone (I believe Mr. Frailey) reported several months ago that BNSF is billing Amtrak for track maintenance for this line monthly, but Amtrak is ignoring the bills.
That number of 90 came from an article in a recent issue of Trains or Classic Trains magazine. It did seem high for a single track line, especially with a permanent slow speed in place through Glorieta Canyon. When time permits, I'll try to find the exact reference.
RJ Emery near Santa Fe, NM
By not maintaining the old TRANSCON, BNSF may be missing out on a safety valve. Should the new TRANSCON be shut down due to a catastrophic wreck spanning all tracks, operations could at least route some time dependent freights on the Lamy-Trinidad segment. That old line handled up to 90 movements a day in its prime.
It never ever came close to 90 trains per day!! I worked in the Engineering Dept. at Las Vegas 1956-1959 when there were ten (10) passenger and fast mail trains each day. In addition there were perhaps four (and at the most six) freight trains each day between Albuquerque and La Junta. During that same time the Belen to Clovis line never c ame close to 90 trains per day in the peak season.
rjemery The State of New Mexico ostensibly owns the former AT&SF tracks between Belen and Santa Fe/Lamy for its RoadRunner commuter service. Does the State also do its own dispatching? Signal and track maintenance? For the stretch between Lamy and Trinidad, CO, who dispatches or controls the SW Chief and any other movements? Who does signal and track maintenance?
The State of New Mexico ostensibly owns the former AT&SF tracks between Belen and Santa Fe/Lamy for its RoadRunner commuter service.
Does the State also do its own dispatching? Signal and track maintenance?
For the stretch between Lamy and Trinidad, CO, who dispatches or controls the SW Chief and any other movements? Who does signal and track maintenance?
I visit the Santa fe-Trinidad line on a pretty regular basis mostly to photograph the large number or surviving semaphores they still have. The tracks between Belen and Santa fe and subcontracted through Herzog which is responsible for all the track maintenance. I do not know who does the dispatching but I would assume it is done through the BNSF.
The tracks between Lamy and Trinidad are still owned by the BNSF. The Southwest Chief only runs two trains through New mexico a day and in all the years I have been visiting there I have never seen any freight trains at all. A local in Las vegas,NM told me once in a while a Army train will ramble through there. As far as I know there is no CTC at all on that line. It is all just block signals. The line is about as primitive and old as it gets. A good portion still has semaphores. The majority of the track is still section track. Old telegraph poles still carry the signal wires which cover the majority of the line. It truly is a railroad stuck in a time machine.
The BNSF does all the maintenance on the Lamy to Trinidad line. As you can imagine with only two trains a day the line requires little maintenance. It is just as rare to see maintenance crews as it is to see freight trains.
Around February of this year the state backed off of buying the Lamy to Trinidad line because taxes of all things. It did not want to loose all the revenue the railroad pays the state in property taxes. The Roadrunner express is also under a lot of pressure with costs. Many officials are saying it was a waste of money to begin with and should have never been built let alone expand. I know they already eliminated some trains and the Governor was debating shutting the whole thing down if revenue doesn't pick up soon.
mudchicken Both pieces of railroad still exist. IIRC BNSF only has two qualified crews right now plus supervisors who can pilot. Detours would be limited, stacks can't go there (and not because of the tunnel) There is no business between Algodones and Trinidad. (On the branch, city and county fathers ran off the business in spite of the shortline's best efforts)
Both pieces of railroad still exist.
IIRC BNSF only has two qualified crews right now plus supervisors who can pilot.
Detours would be limited, stacks can't go there (and not because of the tunnel) There is no business between Algodones and Trinidad. (On the branch, city and county fathers ran off the business in spite of the shortline's best efforts)
BaltACD,If by crews, you mean train crews as opposed to track crews, yes, that would be folly. To maintain train crews for no movements on the chance they someday would be needed is indeed wasteful. Still, I doubt if BNSF sold the line without retaining trackage rights, and in fact, I seem to recall BNSF reserved the right to run at least one freight per day in each direction over its old TRANSCON.How long would it take to certify a train crew to operate a train between Dalies (or Grants or Gallup) and Trinidad?Does there still exist track between Dalies and Albuquerque? Does the original track between Albuquerque and Lamy still exist as well, or has most of that been picked up? I would presume some track remains if the SW Chief is still operating on its original route.
rjemery Mike, By not maintaining the old TRANSCON, BNSF may be missing out on a safety valve. Should the new TRANSCON be shut down due to a catastrophic wreck spanning all tracks, operations could at least route some time dependent freights on the Lamy-Trinidad segment. That old line handled up to 90 movements a day in its prime. Think of a wreck with burning tank cars all over the place. It would take a week or more to clear the wreckage and rebuild the tracks and signal connections before east-west traffic could flow once more. Such a wreck has happened in the past and could happen again. Perhaps BNSF has other contingency plans should its new TRANSCON be shut. The old TRANSCON has also suffered much. In Kansas and elsewhere, I am sure the track was continuous welded rail, and max speeds were at least 100 mph in many places. I know because I was a frequent rider on the El Capitan, and I timed the milepost markers as they whizzed by.
Mike,
Think of a wreck with burning tank cars all over the place. It would take a week or more to clear the wreckage and rebuild the tracks and signal connections before east-west traffic could flow once more. Such a wreck has happened in the past and could happen again. Perhaps BNSF has other contingency plans should its new TRANSCON be shut.
The old TRANSCON has also suffered much. In Kansas and elsewhere, I am sure the track was continuous welded rail, and max speeds were at least 100 mph in many places. I know because I was a frequent rider on the El Capitan, and I timed the milepost markers as they whizzed by.
The one thing rail fans overlook when it comes to various line segments and their 'emergency use potential'. To use the line one has to have crews that are qualified on the line. If the normal use of the low volume line can be handled with, I'll pick a number, 6 crews - over time (1 year) that is ALL the crews that will be qualified on that line segment. If there is a emergency that requires use of the line - you have 6 crews to do with what you want - it doesn't matter that you want to move 20 trains in each direction - you have 6 crews. While you may have 100 crews that operated over the line 2 years ago - THEY ARE NO LONGER QUALIFIED in accordance with FRA regs!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I am truly sorry to learn of those developments. I had hoped that the line from Lamy to Trinidad would have been preserved and that NM Rail Runner service would have been extended to at least Las Vegas, NM, if not Raton, NM. I had also hoped that reasonable intercity Amtrak service could have been established between El Paso and Denver. Obviously, I am a dreamer.
rjemery ... snip ... For the stretch between Lamy and Trinidad, CO, who dispatches or controls the SW Chief and any other movements? Who does signal and track maintenance?
Sadly this is a slow motion, three way, political 'train wreck'.
The State of NM wants to reneg on its agreement to purchase the line between Lamy and Trinidad.
The BNSF doesn't want to maintain the Raton sub to support their almost non-existent freight traffic, much less to passenger train standards. Amtrak isn't contributing much for just two trains a day and certainly can't afford to purchase and maintain the line from Lamy to La Junta.
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
I would assume that in the Belen/Lamy stretch, the state would contract for maintenance, probably with BNSF. Dispatching would remain with BNSF.
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