high speed plan

[pat390]

If the US goes on a high speed plan would any of you commuters use it?

[Anonymous]

I'm not exactly a commuter, but several factors would be involved for people to use it, commuter or not. How fast the trains average in speed, what cities would be served and how often train service was available. If it left at a decent hour, unlike the closet Amtrak service to me now, and didn't have to worry about the trip taking all day when you can drive it in a few hours, I'd definately consider it. Anything's better than traffic.

[Junctionfan]

I think the North East Corridor should be extended to Boston and Montreal and extended down to Florida. Acela service that reaches from Montreal to Florida would be cool for tourists in particular. You are looking at high speed service for tourist who would be interested in going to such places as Cape Cod, Walt Disney World, and other fine tourist attractions in Virginia, West Virginia, North and South Carolina, Georgia, Florida and other states and Quebec. Also major cities like Montreal and Boston which have reputatable universities and collages have students that would benifit with the Acela provided they lived near the existing and my proposed extension of the service. Also the business community would benifit from it too.

[Anonymous]

I think an extension from Washington to Atlanta via Richmond, Raleigh, Charlotte, and Greenville would be great. There is a lot of business travel between these cities with Charlotte the banking center of the southeast and could relieve a lot of traffic on I-85 and I-95. Goverment travel would be a thought too, since it would serve three state capitols and the nation's capitol. There are also numerous great colleges, as said above, especially in North Carolina. Personally, I think this should be one of the first HSR corridors opened outside of the NEC before expanded as far as Florida, which would be something great for tourists.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: I think the North East Corridor should be extended to Boston

The NEC runs from Washington to Boston already. Boston South Station that is. Does the North Station only serve Downeaster service for Amtrak, or is there any Canadian service from there?

[Junctionfan]

Good; so it does run to Boston, that is good. Is it quadruple tracked all the way from New York to Boston? Also, I don't think there is electrical lines set up for the service to Montreal but it would likely be welcomed. At Montreal station, Vias have to turn on a wye and back up into the station because the locomotive isn't allowed in so I would imagine its because of the diesel fumes so an electrification of the lines would be welcomed if the financing was available.

[Anonymous]

I believe much of the line along the Hudson River valley from New York to Albany is electrified, but I'm not positive. At least that much is done. Isn't VIA looking at Bombardier's Bullet Train technology though on the Toronto -Montreal line? If that's ever developed enough, high speed rail may not require miles and miles of electrification.

[FThunder11]

I'm not a commuter, but I would ride.

[DSchmitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FThunder11

I'm not a commuter, but I would ride.

WHY?

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Blue Ridge Front

I believe much of the line along the Hudson River valley from New York to Albany is electrified, but I'm not positive. At least that much is done. Isn't VIA looking at Bombardier's Bullet Train technology though on the Toronto -Montreal line? If that's ever developed enough, high speed rail may not require miles and miles of electrification.

To me it is a flawed and expensive idea.

1/ The bullet train is for the Windsor corridor which is Quebec City to Montreal to Kingston Ontario; Ottawa to Kingston. The two subdivisions meet at Kingston than go from there to Toronto Union. From there is goes to Bayview Junction after stopping at Aldershot and than goes to London Ontario. Than after that it goes to a junction point at a little place called Kamolka and than splits off and head to Windsor while the other heads towards Sarnia. The problem with this route is that it is riddled with many railroad crossings and is single tracked in some location along the Chatham Subdivision (London to Windsor) and the even more busy Stratroy Subdivision (London to Sarnia) CN has diamonds with CP on the Kingston Subdivision (Kingston to Toronto) and on the Stratroy Subdivision. At Paris Ontario, there is a nasty tight curve there located on the Dundas Subdivision which forces the trains to go slow especially if they have autoracks and 86 foot boxcars and 89 foot Tofcs. CN uses thease Subdivisions alot and on the Oakville Subdivision (Toronto to Bayview Junction) Go train commuters use it frequently. This is just a few of the problems that would need to be addressed in order to make this new train more efficient than what Vias P-42s are doing. Having said that, by the time you spend the money in making it useful for this new train, the government might as well spend the extra few million and electrify the line and save on fuel costs; just make sure the line doesn't brush up against the double stacks that CN runs.

2/ As I stated earlier, the P-42s are fast and are just as good right now plus they can be made electric. Via may want to by more P-42s than invest in something like the bullet train.

3/ Unless the bullet train is fuel efficient, there is the problem of fuel. This train runs with the principle of a jet engine so it is going to burn a bit of fuel.

Right now a cheaper way would to have the government spend money by purchasing 1 of the tracks and building another so it is triple tracked. The other line can be used for directional traffic. The CP Belleville Subdivision parallels the Kingston Sub, the CP Galt Sub parallels the Dundas and Oakville Subs and the CP Windsor Sub parallels the Chatham Sub. What CN and CP were interested in was that one direction goes on CN tracks and the other direction on CP. This way CN and Via don't interfere with each other too much plus you have the option now of down the road electrifing the lines without worring about CN doublestack since now those tracks only will see Vias. Right now the trains go anywhere between 100mph to 70 mph being the slowest which isn't to bad but if the government wants to improve the Windsor Corridor than the government is going to have to fork over the dough.

[Junctionfan]

I don't know why Amtrak isn't getting the federal support they need. Via has problems like that too.

[cpbloom]

How about a Cleveland to Columbus to Cincinnati high speed corridor, I'm pretty sure it would be used.

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pat390

If the US goes on a high speed plan would any of you commuters use it?

High speed rail and commuter rail are almost mutually exclusive.

High Speed rail needs to service the transportation needs between Metropolitan areas that have a high passenger density. Stopping a too many intermediate locations would defeat the principal of getting people from A to Z in an acceptable amount of time (Time that needs to be competitive with Portal to Portal Air times or portal to portal driving times).

Commuter Rails purpose is to get people from their home to the workplace and the return them to their home on a daily basis. Speed is if a lesser importance, convience and reliability are required for Commuter Rail.

[Anonymous]

I think I'll post my map again, of HSR and county populations.....

[Anonymous]

In order for a Any Speed corridor to work, IMHO, the entirety of the trains, intercity, and commuter have to be operated by the same entity. One ticket needed from anywhere to anywhere else. Take NYC to Washington for example. Similar to the days of the Pennsy
passenger service. Some trains can make many stops NYC to Phili, then run with only mjor stops to DC. A guy could get on at New Brunswick and go all the way to DC in one seat, one ticket. Thn there can be a train that only makes a few major stops, NYC to Phili and then work local to DC. Then there would be the hot-shots ( a South Shore Line term) that would run the whole distance from NYC to DC making only a few stops for the long distance folks. This is an application of the old New York Westchester and Boston's theory of scheduling to make a total package service to a region. It's wasteful to have operating personel idle on the commuter road's board, while the intercity line is starved for people that have to deadhead from some distance. One set of officials to supervise, one ticket clerk, one information phone number. The split only exists now account funding and thinking from the '70s. I watched it happen.
Mitch

I can see the seperation pf freight and passenger but not commuter and passenger.

[passengerfan]

If one looks at the population density on the map provided by Ron Clark the most obvious choice for high speed rail would be between Vancouver BC and San Diego, Ca. Recent articles in west coast papers have told the story of the I-5 gridlock that is fast approaching.Already many parts of the highway are overcrowded now and the cost of adding lanes is prohibitive and far to expensive. Where additional lanes are needed are north of Everett to Vancouver the highway needs widening to three lanes in each direction. Between Everett and Tacoma the studies point to the only possible solution being double decking the freeway at a cost exceeding 24 Billion by some estimates and others put the cost at over 70 Billion. Between Tacoma and Vancouver, Washington the highway needs to be widened by two lanes in each direction. Portland to Eugene needs two additional lanes in each direction Between Eugene and Willows, California the highway needs at least one more lane in each direction. Willows through Sacramento to south of Stockton requires at least two more lanes in each direction and from there to the Junction of 99 and I-5 at least one more lane in each direction is needed. From the Grapevine to San Diego the entire I-5 corridor needs to be double decked as this is the only way to get the space needed for additional highway use. This double decking is estimated at 1-trillion dollars and will still not solve all of the i-5 problems for more than eight years. High speed rail in this corridor would bring the most benefits to the greatest number of people. After all the Northwest rail corridor between Vancouver and Eugene is showing passenger growth, as is the San Joaquin Valley route and San Diego - Santa Barbara route. The most successful of Amtraks long distance trains has since day one been the Coast Starlight. The estimated cost of highh speed rail parallel to I-5 is estmated at 30 billion and would be cost effective for at least thirty years. The Northwest has abundant electric power to supply the power necessary for the high speed corridor but delays will only force the costs to rise. Now is the time for west coast high speed rail.

[oltmannd]

..or maybe this is more of a "chicken or the egg" type question, that is, does transportation infrastructure effect land use or does land use effect transportation infrastructure?

Down here in Atlanta, they've been talking about and planning a commuter rail network for the past 15 years. But, when it comes to funding constuction, the state gets cold feet. The usual arguement is "we don't really know if anyone will ride it. We just don't have the population density that the older NE cities do." While I find this argument immensly frustrating (particularly during my drive to work each day!) I have to admit there is some merit to it. Atlanta's suburbs have grown up around a very good network of Interstate highways and connecting freeways. This, and the absence of nat'l boundaries have lead to one of the lowest pop densities of major US cities. In the NE, suburban service pre-dated suburban sprawl, so housing arranged itself around the train service, to some extent. So, building commuter rail in Atlanta is sort of a "Field of Dreams" proposition - "If you build it, they will come". Maybe land use patterns will change because of the presence of commuter rail, and Atlanta's population growth can be accomodated without gridlock.

As for High Speed rail, conventional wisdom holds that you need a public transp. feeder network to support intercity rail, so I suppose that Atlanta's commuter rail network would have to be built out, at least partially, before it would be worth talking about including high speed intercity rail. (Also, the logical first route would be to connect Atlanta to NC's growing service from Charlotte to points north. The problem is is that south of Charlotte on NS was built with many, many 3 deg curves - this would be big bucks to do!)

[Overmod]

Having looked at Atlanta -- a piece of the problem is "where do the riders go AFTER they arrive at the 'destination' of the commuter lines".

Absent some sort of downtown loop or 'affordable' paratransit system (e.g., with 'free transfer' from commuter train) there isn't a way to reach the places that prospective riders need to go. I don't think existing MARTA is much of an option ;-}

But there's a problem that I think is much more significant here.

If current development in Cobb County and west past Villa Rica (or, for that matter, along the I-20 corridor west from Atlanta toward the state line) -- the part of suburban-Atlanta growth I've researched -- hasn't already reached critical 'do-able' density, it will within a year or two at most. The question is whether the government agencies want to spend all that money for what is essentially rich, non-minority traffic, rather than on the typical markets transit spending traditionally is addressed to. And THAT, I think, is at the heart of Atlanta's difficulties with these kind of projects.

If there were a way to target financing, bond issues, etc. so that the communities most benefiting from commuter rail were to bear a commensurate share of its cost, you'd be much more likely to see something happen quickly. I'm not sure I'd hold my breath for that.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD
Commuter Rails purpose is to get people from their home to the workplace and the return them to their home on a daily basis. Speed is if a lesser importance, convience and reliability are required for Commuter Rail.

Correct! Here in Delaware we have the NEC. Delaware borrows the SEPTA system from Philadelphia to add commuter service, on the NEC. The problem is it stops running to the southern end of the line after 6PM (south of Wilmington). If you miss the last train what do you do? The folks that use the line to comute into Philly have to first drive almost to the DE/PA border to use a differnet station. Crazy!

Its not about speed, but service.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by donclark

I think I'll post my map again, of HSR and county populations.....

That's Mookie standing in the big blank spot right in the center!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

QUOTE: Originally posted by donclark

I think I'll post my map again, of HSR and county populations.....

That's Mookie standing in the big blank spot right in the center!

Looking good.

[Mookie]

Thank you!

[Modelcar]

....I like that map. That's an interesting breakdown of where we are....I can even identify our county on the small map. The last dark blue county spreading NE from Indianapolis...That's us. Boy, Jen...you folks really are far and few between out in your yonder.

[Anonymous]

I'm curious to see how different that map is in 2010.

[Anonymous]

It won't be much different. 100,000 upper limit is too small. That could still be a very rural county with a large county seat. Like where I live. And look at Montana and Alaska!

To be useful an upper limit of about a million is needed.

[Anonymous]

Its all about speed not service people will travel in a box car if its fast and cheap it dosent mater.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CHPENNSYLVANIA

Its all about speed not service people will travel in a box car if its fast and cheap it dosent mater.

And that, Grasshopper, is why airports are busier than train stations.

[Modelcar]

...Yes, because today's airlines are about as comfortable as a box car.

[Junctionfan]

I would rather go into a mode of transportation that doesn't require passports, searches and other poking and proding just to commute from one city to another. Some of thease damn security guys think that an airport is a great way of studing proctology.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Junctionfan Posted: Today, 08:45:50
I would rather go into a mode of transportation that doesn't require passports, searches and other poking and proding just to commute from one city to another. Some of thease damn security guys think that an airport is a great way of studing proctology.

I believe the days without that are long gone now.