If my boss gets back into the reefer business he's thinking about having the fleet of trailers run 2 starters 1 air as the primary and when they are hooked up to the trailer and then an electric one for when unhooked and sitting waiting to be picked up. Why with the air one no dead battery issue and constant supply from the air system on the trailer just a couple lines needed. For the stand-by system can run a smaller battery and solar panels to keep it charged. He's done the math on weight and should be lighter by 50 to 100 pounds the way he wants to set it up. It all adds up to extra cargo for revenue.
blue streak 1It appears that the Bright line Chargers are air starters. Note this link of Brightline Blue2 at Orlando had to have the CSX loco apparently going back and providing air to the Charger. Delivering Brightline's BrightBlue 2 Train to the Orlando Vehicle Maintenance Facility - YouTube
Delivering Brightline's BrightBlue 2 Train to the Orlando Vehicle Maintenance Facility - YouTube
Unfortunately, the act of starting the locomotive on air was not shown in the video.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
It appears that the Bright line Chargers are air starters. Note this link of Brightline Blue2 at Orlando had to have the CSX loco apparently going back and providing air to the Charger.
BMW was rightly famous for figuring out exactly how to handle this issue, after the functional boondoggle that was their hydrogen-powered V12 (I confess I loved that car immensely, but it was wildly impractical in too many ways)
What BMW did was an advanced and more thoughtful version of what Budd did with the SPV2000: they kept a liquid-fueled propulsion engine as the drivetrain, and used a 'reformer' to generate hydrogen from that fuel that could be used in a fuel cell of about 5kW size... which ran most of the normally-belt-driven stuff on the engine, like the water pump, power steering, and air-conditioning compressor, as well as all the lighting, fans, entertainment and so forth elsewhere on the car. Note that this makes everything available 'all the time', whether the main motor is running or not, or the theft immobilizer active -- and it makes it possible to stay warm, cool, and entertained all night in relative silence.
In practice you could also use a smaller cell as an emergency starting device, feeding something like a supercapacitor to build up enough energy to pull in and start the engine with adequate voltage for the computer and injectors. Might take a few minutes, like the bad old days of jump-starting GMs with side-terminal batteries where you actually had to charge the battery instead of bridging with external power in parallel... but it would be small and relatively inexpensive.
ModelcarBack in my {Uncle Sam}, days, we had a small engine with a generator to provide power to start the tanks large Continental V-12's...when they were still gasoline operated. If I remember correctly, they {the V-12's}, were 2,900 cid. Air cooled too. Add Quote to your
Back in my day, the APU's were known as "Little Joes" - one cylinder putt-putts. The main engine was the Continental AVDS-1790 (Air-Cooled, V-Configuration, Diesel, Supercharged (actually turbocharged), 1790 cubic inch displacement). The M60 series and M1 series omitted the Little Joes, until combat experience in the Middle East created such a demand from the field that they were retrofitted to the M1 fleet. The primary reason for the APU was (and is) to keep the batteries charged when the main engine was shut down, but the radio and intercom had to be kept live - and running them down -, such as in a night defensive position (aka "laager")
Some of the older units rather 'sensibly' did not have starters with Bendix drive at all; they motored the main generator which had "adequate" torque (as Rolls-Royce would say). Once you have a traction alternator that was no longer possible for many years. In theory, you could use an inverter to motor it now...
My opinion is that the locomotive should be equipped with an air starter and an electric compressor to build up pressure in an accumulator for it if the MR leaks down. Put a side tap to this accumulator on each side of the unit, and take air from the Brandt unit or from a compressor on a service hi-rail truck.
Don Oltmann may remember the tail end of the awful Penn Central days when many units had batteries with inadequate voltage on account of bad cells, or no functioning battery at all, and despite the cost had to be kept idling. In fact there were some that barely had enough functioning power assemblies to keep running at idle... or restart with any amount of jumping if they stalled.
I actually saw the last high-hood Alco working near Kearny in the '70s, and it had that typical Alco worn-governor thing where the engine a-a-a-almost stalls and then at the last moment makes a burst of chugs. That was the first time I saw the color of the flame from burning chunks of motor brush falling on the track... I still don't quite know how they got out under there, but I saw them go, and I was reminded of this seeing some of the pictures from Chernobyl.
As an aside, the famous Russian T-34 tank of WW2 fame had an air-start system for its diesel engine. Strictly intended as a back-up, the primary starting system was electric.
Back when Diesel fuel was a quarter a gallon, the railroads just left the locomotives running.
Saw the end of what I think was a jump start of a locomotive on IC years ago - from a bank of batteries in the back of a pick up.
Fire truck have used rotary gear/vane pumps for priming for years, driven by an electric motor. You can always hear the whine. I've encountered air motor driven primers - add that noise to the whine of the pump and it's unique. Our current engine has a venturi primer. Still air driven, but it's just a hiss...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
SD70DudeI remember my first experience with air starters. Walking between a SD70M-2 and cars in an adjacent track when it fired up. Just about jumped out of my pants, sure wasn't expecting that sound! Our operating instructions prohibit us from manually shutting down air start units, as the starting reservoir can leak off despite supposedly being isolated from the rest of the air system (there was an incident where this happened, causing severe train delay). As was mentioned, the great thing about air starters is you can recharge a dead unit almost instantly simply by hooking it up to another unit, or any other vehicle with an air compressor. Way easier than calling out shop staff and fooling around with jumper cables. Our SD70M-2s have gradually been fitted with backup electric starters, but the air starter is always tried first. For redundancy this is the best configuration, it saves wear and tear on the Delco starter motors and batteries while still allowing for a second try if the air leaks off (we still aren't allowed to manually shut them down).
Our operating instructions prohibit us from manually shutting down air start units, as the starting reservoir can leak off despite supposedly being isolated from the rest of the air system (there was an incident where this happened, causing severe train delay).
As was mentioned, the great thing about air starters is you can recharge a dead unit almost instantly simply by hooking it up to another unit, or any other vehicle with an air compressor. Way easier than calling out shop staff and fooling around with jumper cables.
Our SD70M-2s have gradually been fitted with backup electric starters, but the air starter is always tried first. For redundancy this is the best configuration, it saves wear and tear on the Delco starter motors and batteries while still allowing for a second try if the air leaks off (we still aren't allowed to manually shut them down).
I am surprised that both air and electric aren't standard on all locomotives. Since both have their failure modes, it is less likely both will fail at the same time.
Cost, Cost, Cost - I know. What do you think is the cost to the operation of a locomotive that won't start. Big costs especially if that engine's power is actually REQUIRED to move the train.
I remember my first experience with air starters. Walking between a SD70M-2 and cars in an adjacent track when it fired up. Just about jumped out of my pants, sure wasn't expecting that sound!
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Then you havent seen a unit or units setting in a yard off air or not running for a few days.
They definatly will eventually loose enough air to not turn the starter over,been there done that .
I've had to on numerous occasions pull a running unit up beside a dead air powered starter unit and charge the tanks.
The problem is with all this fuel conservation the railroads have embrassed is slowly killing the batteries .
We even put ground air on some of the units to keep the air tanks full to help out when we know the unit has weak batteries but enough charge in them .
Collin ,operator of the " Eastern Kentucky & Ohio R.R."
In 1971 I was on a southbound freight that was stopped at CP 7 in Bogot, NJ. We had three Alco Century series locomotives with air starters. A cop came over and told the engineer to shut the enginea down because they were making too much noise. When we got the signal to go the engineer started the first engine while I started the second and the brakeman fired up the third. Those starters sounded like 50 caliber machine guns. All the lights came on in the nearby apartments and the cop car came down the street again but by that time we were on the move south on the main line. The engineer was Rheingold Pete Peterson and the brakeman was Lenny Thoma.
Kootenay Central The item shown in the previous post is the Diesel Engine Governor.
The item shown in the previous post is the Diesel Engine Governor.
That makes sense as you can see the fuel rack behind it. Starters on semis are high maintenance item because of all the torque on a diesel, when you start a truck the whole cab rocks, and I would bet an air starter would be simpler and possibly more durable than an electric motor. But I would think that they wouldn't want to bury them in the main generator as they wear out fast on trucks at least and you would want to get to them easily.
Forgot to enable the links:
http://nkp190.com/gallery.html?albumid=5637218834167272337&photoid=5666588343963321362
http://nkp190.com/gallery.html?albumid=5637218834167272337&photoid=5666588339992108130
I think this is an air starter from its position near where the flywheel would be on a semi (on Doyle McCormick's Alco PA):
When I drove a semi as a student to put myself through college I would occasionally get a Ford truck that my company had acquired second-hand, from Con-Way I believe, that had an air starter. When you started it it sounded like an air ratchet, like when they are changing tires on a race car, every bit as loud, not popular if you are parked in a residential neighborhood.
I remember air starters on ALCos. We have a few SD90MAC-H2s here and we have to charge the air with another locomotive after 2-3 days.
Randy
I have read that some ALCO Century series locomotives used air starters.....I know that ICG's C636's had them....
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
switch7frg Sam do you remember the White 9000jt?? Those had air start . In my more foolish days at a stop light , my hand would smack the startair button. Sure surprised some folk. Cannonball
Sam do you remember the White 9000jt?? Those had air start . In my more foolish days at a stop light , my hand would smack the startair button. Sure surprised some folk.
Cannonball
Sure do! Put a lot of miles on a snub nose White with one.
Had a B-61 Quadraplex (w/672 Mack) that would happen to,
on occasion, also. THAT truck was as hot in the Winter, as it was in the Summer!
But that's another story.
Y6bs evergreen in my mind
The EMD autostart has sensors in the batteries, the main air reservoir, the radiator and the engine block...if temps drop below a set temperature, the autostart kicks the diesel on to warm the block and water, if the batteries discharge below a set point, it also starts the prime to charge the batteries.
If the air pressure in the main reservoir and or the train line drops below a set pressure, it will start to run the compressor and recharge the main and keep the brakes charged.
The air start equipped SD90 and Mac has a reserve or secondary reservoir for the starter, located just behind the rear cab door inside the first compartment, it is automatically charged from the main reservoir and replenished by the compressor..,
Once the prime is cranked, the starter reservoir is recharged same as the main air by the compressor, it has its own cut off switch.
On our locomotives, MP1500Ds, if the isolate/run switch is in the isolate position, and no control surface is moved, (brakes set or released, throttle advanced, reverser moved) the system will shut the prime off in 10 minutes...if any of the pre-determined "faults" occur, it will restart the prime, although ours are electric start.
On the SD90/90Macs, you can, in a pinch, recharge the main, and hence the starter reservoir from ground air or another locomotive, but if you have to do this, then the locomotive needs to be checked over for a problem, the system should never let it shut off if there is a issue.
Now, if you shut the locomotive off on purpose, yes the main can leak down, but the starter reservoir will not.
Originally, quite a few first generation locomotives, and a lot of diesel engines used air starters.
Only in the last decade has EMD gone back to them, simply because even if there is an electrical failure, battery fail or other problem, you can most likely start the diesel with this system.
Keep in mind the SD90 and SD90Macs have lots and lots of on board electrical components, computers, radios and such, using air start eliminates one potential and major problem.
Even if the main computer craps out, you can start the locomotive.
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Air Starters have been used for years in the Trucking industry. I would not say they were real popular, but quite a few were around. Roadway Express was one carrier that used them on a major portion of their equipment. They had a dedicated resivoir for the air start system, that was charged off the service air system. They seemed to be popular with carriers operating in colder climes, dump truckers seemed to favor them, although some used them to surprise by standers ( a practice generally frowned upon).
heavier diesel in the Construction industry seemed to favor a donkey engine to start the main power plant, and some of the donkey motors had air starter systems.
Don't ever recall seeing or hearing a Diesel Locomotive with an air start system. They probably had then somewhere...Any one know of any?
The autostart system periodically - ELECTRICALLY - starts the locomotive which in turn charges the battery which starts the locomotive the next time restart it is required.
Is there some system which uses the AIR RESERVOIR contents to start the locomotive when the battery is low or discharged?
.....Ed....Is there a small "slave" engine to automatically keep the air pressure up as the engine remains idle...?
Back in my {Uncle Sam}, days, we had a small engine with a generator to provide power to start the tanks large Continental V-12's...when they were still gasoline operated. If I remember correctly, they {the V-12's}, were 2,900 cid. Air cooled too.
Quentin
Plus if you need more air to Start just grab another Locomotive and recharge the Tanks and LET HER RIP. Reminds me of the time a DOT boy got under this Cabover that had one and was sitting under the Exhaust for the Air Starter and told the Driver to Start the Engine. Driver asked him to move as he was in an danger area DOT officer said DO AS I SAY. So the driver Obeyed the DOT officer and next thing the DOT man felt was a 120LB PSI blast right on his chest. He was not a happy guy.
Common on SD90, SD90Macs.
Bleed down is not an issue, same system (autostart) that keeps the batteries charged keeps the aip up, and there is a seperate system for the starter.
Do they exist? How do they work? How common are they?
Doesn't the bleed down of the reservoir render them useless?
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