I am thinking the boys got caught up in their own hyperbole.
I get the feeling with 119 Interlockings - 4689 switches and/or movable point frogs sounds about right. A interlocking is a Control Point with controlled signals and generally one or more controlled switches that the signals protect. That would average 40 devices per interlocking and considering the complexity of interlockings in the Chicago area well within being reasonable.
blue streak 1 To get an overview of the problem These figures from 2010 not including th EJ&E ( reason unknown ) 893 miles of mainline track 119 interlocking plants 1800 + freight trains 1114 passenger trains 61 freight yards 4689 control points ------ ~~ 5.25 per mile of track
To get an overview of the problem
These figures from 2010 not including th EJ&E ( reason unknown )
893 miles of mainline track
119 interlocking plants
1800 + freight trains
1114 passenger trains
61 freight yards
4689 control points ------ ~~ 5.25 per mile of track
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
edbenton BUT the Chicago to NEW ORLEANS and since when does anyone but CN control that one.
BUT the Chicago to NEW ORLEANS and since when does anyone but CN control that one.
As pointed out, the CN does not control the route into and out of CUS......
However according to Amtrak's website, the City of New Orleans has a 88% on time record for the last 12 months. That really is pretty good.
An "expensive model collector"
oltmannd There is the CTCO which has been around since the very early 2000's. Here's a presentation that touches a bit on what they do. aapa.files.cms-plus.com/.../05_OpsIT_Allen_Chuck.pdf
There is the CTCO which has been around since the very early 2000's.
Here's a presentation that touches a bit on what they do.
aapa.files.cms-plus.com/.../05_OpsIT_Allen_Chuck.pdf
Here is another link for the CTCO
http://www.railshippers.com/regional/midwest/grewe_presentation.pdf
BaltACD About 15 + or - years ago, CSX stopped the transfer of the Chicago dispatchers to Jacksonville at 11:59 of the last hour on the understanding that a office for ALL Chicago area dispatchers was imminent in being created and CSX didn't want to pay double relocation expenses of moving employees to Jacksonville only to move them back to Chicago after a short interval....obviously what had been intended 15 years ago has never come to pass.
About 15 + or - years ago, CSX stopped the transfer of the Chicago dispatchers to Jacksonville at 11:59 of the last hour on the understanding that a office for ALL Chicago area dispatchers was imminent in being created and CSX didn't want to pay double relocation expenses of moving employees to Jacksonville only to move them back to Chicago after a short interval....obviously what had been intended 15 years ago has never come to pass.
Some of it has. Both CSX and the IHB are in the same dispatching center. The benefit of having all dispatchers in the same center is really not as big as some on this site would leave you to believe.
oltmannd aapa.files.cms-plus.com/.../05_OpsIT_Allen_Chuck.pdf
Don: link does not work.
Everyone: -- got some more information from another source. What really can slow down operations is when it is not the next dispatcher but the second one down line; which makes sense when I think about it. ex --- BRC has a train fouling Lemoyne; if a long CN freight doesn't get stopped before Brighton it can foul Corwith and Brighton interlockings.tying up both BNSF and NS. BRC would have had to contact CN which would have to contack BNSF to keep Corwith lined for BNSF. and CN informed NS about problem.
One help some RRs are doing in the CHI dispatching area is to begin a texting system so there is a written notification to second RR dispatcher.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
The Amtrak issue with CN is a very good example of the issues which are faced in the Chicago area. I skimmed thru the CN response and they make a very good case. I didnt completely review the methodology for Amtrak's complaints (minutes lost per 10,000 of operation, Terminal to terminal, station to station), but it is a mess getting into, out of, or thru Chicago.
What really surprized me is that CN has just recently begun to strickly monitor each train's performance (February) with detailed reporting. Isnt that something that should be available historically? Are those records kept, or is it difficult to reconstruct these movements? Or perhaps CN realizes they REALLY need to monitor performance.
It seems to me that, as previously mentioned, an Amtrak operations coordinator located in Chicago could go a long way to moving these trains.
ed
I read the Complaint also guys where they are also screaming about is not just the Chicago to Joliet Corridor BUT the Chicago to NEW ORLEANS and since when does anyone but CN control that one. That line last year alone and this is the reason for the Complaint the trains lost over 26 DAYS of schedule time due to Freight train INTERFERANCE alone. So I did a little more research and found one time where the City of New Orleans was On Time out of Carbondale and hit Champaign IL 4 hours late what happened the train ahead of it a Freight train the Crew went dead on the LAW on the Main and it took 4 hours to Dog Catch Crew to get there.
BroadwayLion blue streak 1: A thought is if an Amtrak train has to copy any train orders it would have to stop unless conductor rode in loco to copy such. Any idea if such is required? No. The conductors have radios and can copy orders the same as the engineer. ROAR
blue streak 1: A thought is if an Amtrak train has to copy any train orders it would have to stop unless conductor rode in loco to copy such. Any idea if such is required?
A thought is if an Amtrak train has to copy any train orders it would have to stop unless conductor rode in loco to copy such. Any idea if such is required?
No. The conductors have radios and can copy orders the same as the engineer.
ROAR
Streak,
You are correct, Lion is not. The engineer of a moving train may not copy a track warrant, at least under GCOR and I suspect any othe rule book. IIRC there is a FRA rule about this. If there is an assistant engineer (fireman) then of course (s)he can copy without stopping the train. The conductor will be in a passenger car, not with the engineer in the normal course of events. BTW train orders are long gone, replaced by track warrants, and Form A and Form B.
Mac McCulloch
edbenton CN right now is grasping at Straws for any and ALL REASONS to try and delay this case. Remember this alot of these trains that are delayed the ONLY lines they run on are CN lines so who is Responsible for them Delaying Amtrak. Also remember this is the same RR that could not inform their OWN TRAINS that their tracks where washed out when they had over one hour and it led to deaths directly.
CN right now is grasping at Straws for any and ALL REASONS to try and delay this case. Remember this alot of these trains that are delayed the ONLY lines they run on are CN lines so who is Responsible for them Delaying Amtrak. Also remember this is the same RR that could not inform their OWN TRAINS that their tracks where washed out when they had over one hour and it led to deaths directly.
1. Did you even read the CN response?
2. Please show me a Amtrak train that only runs on CN tracks.....Hint, the CN does not go into CUS.
3. You times on the CN Rockford incident are WAY off....
edbenton CN right now is grasping at Straws for any and ALL REASONS to try and delay this case. Remember this alot of these trains that are delayed the ONLY lines they run on are CN lines so who is Responsible for them Delaying Amtrak. Also remember this is the same RR that could not inform their OWN TRAINS that their tracks where washed out when they had over one hour and it led to deaths directly. When the STB says you need to IMPROVE your own INTERAL Warning SYSTEMS there is a Company wide ISSUE with COMMUNCATION. Sorry but most people at CN have HIC or HUSRE syndrome their heads are either buried in Cement or so far up their Supervisors Rear END so they can get that next Promotion that they never want to HEAR BAD NEWS since it would affect them.
CN right now is grasping at Straws for any and ALL REASONS to try and delay this case. Remember this alot of these trains that are delayed the ONLY lines they run on are CN lines so who is Responsible for them Delaying Amtrak. Also remember this is the same RR that could not inform their OWN TRAINS that their tracks where washed out when they had over one hour and it led to deaths directly. When the STB says you need to IMPROVE your own INTERAL Warning SYSTEMS there is a Company wide ISSUE with COMMUNCATION.
Sorry but most people at CN have HIC or HUSRE syndrome their heads are either buried in Cement or so far up their Supervisors Rear END so they can get that next Promotion that they never want to HEAR BAD NEWS since it would affect them.
Wow. Educate yourself.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
CShaveRR Another point about CN's track between Thornton Junction and Munster. CSX, I believe, uses the same stretch of CN track to get from the former C&EI that it shares with UP (at the Junction) and the ex-Monon at Munster. I wonder whether CSX has the same problems getting its own trains over these five miles.
Another point about CN's track between Thornton Junction and Munster. CSX, I believe, uses the same stretch of CN track to get from the former C&EI that it shares with UP (at the Junction) and the ex-Monon at Munster. I wonder whether CSX has the same problems getting its own trains over these five miles.
Getting over the CN is really no trouble at all, getting over the UP from Thorton to Dolton is another matter....
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Carl thanks for the analysis. Did laugh a few times.
blue streak 1 A thought is if an Amtrak train has to copy any train orders it would have to stop unless conductor rode in loco to copy such. Any idea if such is required?
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Okay, I see where we're going here now. This is CN defending itself against accusations of its treatment of Amtrak.
First of all, there is a degree of coordination between railroad dispatchers in Chicago, concerning normal interchange routes. This has been credited for reducing delays over the normal interchange routes.
I don't know whether this coordination is a direct result of CREATE or not. However, it's interesting to note that CN dropped a lot of support for individual CREATE projects as it acquired the EJ&E. Brighton Park was going to be a flyover at one time. Not sure they will ever make it now. In the past, CN would have used the north-south route over Brighton Park for its trains from the old WC to other parts of the system. That whole "central corridor" idea was cut out because CN dropped out.
blue streak 1 CShaveRR: Can you be more specific as to locations, please? Carl: I will be glad to. CN has evidently spent a lot of time on this answer and I suspect that it has been many months in preparation. On their reply page 64 figure H is their Eagle answer of interlockings controlled by others. CP Controlling agency mile post 21st st Amtrak 0 Brighton NS 5.1 Corwith BNSF 6.6 Lemoyne BRC 7.9 Canal IHB 13.1 UD Tower METRA 35.7
CShaveRR: Can you be more specific as to locations, please?
Can you be more specific as to locations, please?
Carl: I will be glad to. CN has evidently spent a lot of time on this answer and I suspect that it has been many months in preparation.
On their reply page 64 figure H is their Eagle answer of interlockings controlled by others.
CP Controlling agency mile post
21st st Amtrak 0
Brighton NS 5.1
Corwith BNSF 6.6
Lemoyne BRC 7.9
Canal IHB 13.1
UD Tower METRA 35.7
This is CN's own route...they own the tracks that were formerly IC/GM&O, between Chicago and Joliet. These locations are where this CN route crosses other railroads. I've already mentioned Brighton (Park). The initial CREATE plans also called for flyovers at Corwith and LeMoyne, and I believe that Canal (the IHB crossing) is still in line for a flyover. UD Tower is at Joliet. Metra does a fine job of scheduling its trains at this point, and other railroads that use this line (IAIS, CSXT) rarely run their trains at times that would conflict with the Amtrak schedules.
blue streak 1 Another location although not in Chicago is Battle Creek with 18.5 miles on NS between CN aand NS.
Another location although not in Chicago is Battle Creek with 18.5 miles on NS between CN aand NS.
This one is laughable. They may succeed in blaming NS for the delays to the Blue Water between Kalamazoo and Battle Creek over NS trackage (and nobody's too happy about the slowdowns NS recently instituted over this and other portions of its route!). However, I suspect that what Amtrak's more upset about are the schedules of the six Chicago-Detroit/Pontiac trains, which use NS trackage on either side of Battle Creek, and use CN's tracks for a very short portion right in downtown Battle Creek (a portion which includes the station). From what I've heard, CN is putting the screws to Amtrak with some sort of temporal inaccessibility to this track. We know CN is a "scheduled railroad" , but c'mon!
blue streak 1The other Chicago cite was the Cardinal / Hoosier Figure A CHI Union station Railroad Miles on RR 21 st St Amtrak 1.7 NS 2.6 Metra 4.9 NS .6 BRC .2 Thornton JCT UP 11.1 Munster, In CN 5.8 Then CSX
Figure A
CHI Union station Railroad Miles on RR
21 st St Amtrak 1.7
NS 2.6
Metra 4.9
NS .6
BRC .2
Thornton JCT UP 11.1
Munster, In CN 5.8
Then CSX
Now this is a case where CN probably doesn't have much control of, or responsibility for, the delays. The UP is probably the major culprit here, since their Yard Center probably holds out freights in Amtrak's path. The only CN line here is the one between Thornton Junction and Munster. This was a double-track main line good for 79 m.p.h. (timetable rating--back in the day I suspect it was taken faster, based on my own experiences with GTW pride). I'm reasonably sure that it's no longer good for 79, and--since its usefulness to CN has been diminished by their purchase of the EJ&E--is probably no longer double-track. Again, this line was going to be a part of CREATE's central corridor, but CN scuttled that.
blue streak 1Now I have an understanding of the CHI area delays for Amtrak. This IMHO begs for a single dispatch office and maybe a single dispatcher for Amtrak routes. Maybe this is an indication of why freights cannot get thru Chicago either. One has to wonder how freight only routes fare.
This IMHO begs for a single dispatch office and maybe a single dispatcher for Amtrak routes. Maybe this is an indication of why freights cannot get thru Chicago either. One has to wonder how freight only routes fare.
If CN were willing to cooperate here, we would be having a connection between their line and NS at Grand Crossing being done at the same time as the now-abuilding Englewood flyover. Such a connection would speed up all of the Amtrak trains over CN's former IC route, and possibly might make a much more efficient route for the Cardinal and Hoosier State. I suspect that CN isn't interested in pursuing this option...not because it would interfere with freights (most of which now use EJ&E), but just because they're being CN.
None of this is to refute the fact that one dispatcher, or perhaps a coordinator, might help, particularly in the case of the Cardinal and Hoosier State. But I'm afraid that with modernization of operating rules, combined with the fact that most dispatchers don't know or don't care about the fact that timetables used to contain tables of times (i.e., schedules), there may never be a workable solution.But I suspect that what may appear to be canary feathers around CN's teeth might turn out to be just egg on their face.
blue streak 1CN has evidently spent a lot of time on this answer and I suspect that it has been many months in preparation.
I spent less than an hour on this much, and I'm sure I don't have (or didn't bother to use) any of the information CN has at its disposal. But I have a feeling that the people who are blaming CN for the problems know full well what the other railroads are doing to their trains, and that CN's main argument ("these delays aren't all our fault") won't exonerate them.
CShaveRR Can you be more specific as to locations, please?
Carl: I will be glad to. CN has evidentlyspent a lot of time on this answer and I suspect that it has been many months in preparation.
The other Chicago cite was the Cardinal / Hoosier
Now I have an understanding of the CHI area delays for Amtrak.
The problem with communications among employees that have been loaded to near their maximum abilities in performing a job that requires thought and communication is that there are SO MANY people that they have to communicate with. Those that are trying to get in the que to be answered, can't conceive that the person they are trying to contact is working his posterior off in communicating with those that have come before his entry to the que. When you can't see that the person you are trying to communicate with is working his tail off, your first thought is that the individual is 'lolly gagging' around and just blowing you off.
When the CADS providers were selling CADS to the railroads their chief selling point was that a Dispatcher would be able to easily handle 1000 miles of railroad. If the only thing Dispatchers had to do was line signals and plan train meets - that would be a reasonable assumption. A reasonable assumption but totally FALSE!. First problem is that a railroad does not continue to run without maintenance - track workers and signal personnel have to communicate with Dispatchers to get authorities to be on the track, and the location an timing of these authorities have to be coordinated with the operation of the territory when the authorities are requested. Second, trains don't always run without problems - wayside detector activation, undesired emergency brake application, engine failure, necessity to set out a bad order and 101 other things that cause a moving train to stop and block the track it is on - creating a situation that the Dispatcher must develop a plan to resolve and/or work around until the problem can be resolved. All the occurrences require communication with field personnel, thus chewing up the time that is available for all the other requirements of the job - remember when Mandatory Directives and Authorities are sent to field personnel - they must be repeated back to the Dispatcher to verify that the information that was sent is actually the information that was received so the both the Dispatcher and field personnel know what will be happening. 'I thought you said' can have catastrophic consequences.
Communication with the Dispatcher is SERIOUS business.
After readiing the CN response to the Amtrak PRIIA complaint one item stood out. It was their complaint that other RRs were not informing them in a timely manner and that other RRs often would not answer their call for hand offs
I cannot believe that no start has been made toward a common dispatch system that UP and BNSF have institued in several locations and CSX _ NS in Atlanta. The Atlanta joint dispatch I have heard has decreased delays especially at Howell tower.
I realize that implementing a common dispatch system will be complicated but if all dispatchers were in one room then certainly there would be speeed ups. Why Create has not addressed this problem is very puzzling. When one dispatcher only covers 5 miles in some cases ???? Freight speed ups would probably be large and would cerainly help Amtrak and Metra.
If system could over ride some automatic block signals at RR grade crossings there would be even more speed ups. Ex. RR a crosses RR B but cannot clear RR B because of a blockage at crossing C.
Anyone have more information ???
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