Flange Greaser

[CBQ_Guy]

Mark, thanks for the info.

Much appreciated!

[mvlandsw]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Overmod

There's a very good modern product that uses sticks of solid 'lubricant' in special magazines, mounted on the locomotive trucks and bearing very precisely on the part of the rail requiring lubrication. They were mentioned in a recent information post right here on trains.com. I couldn't see any particular problem with 'greasers' as described above that these things don't solve...

I believe these apply the lubricant to the wheel flange-not to the rail. Any lubricant will reduce traction on a hill. If some of the adhesion comes from the flange against the rail on curves reducing this friction will reduce the pulling force available.

[Train Guy 3]

I've worked on a NS hi-rail truck before. The whole underbody of the truck was coated with grease( what a pain it is to clean it off to work on it ). Does that grease build-up happen often and has it ever caused a problem? I know the NS guys in my area are rough on the trucks.

[Overmod]

There's a very good modern product that uses sticks of solid 'lubricant' in special magazines, mounted on the locomotive trucks and bearing very precisely on the part of the rail requiring lubrication. They were mentioned in a recent information post right here on trains.com. I couldn't see any particular problem with 'greasers' as described above that these things don't solve...

Meanwhile, there's a different kind of lubricant being applied, on some locomotives, to the TOP of the rail, to reduce the running resistance of the train. It's claimed that this doesn't compromise adhesion, e.g. if the train stalls and the locomotives have to back down and lay sand over part of the track that's just been top-lubed.

I'd be interested to hear anyone's experience with either of these things.

[mvlandsw]

Greasers are a real pain when climbing a hill. They also cause trouble going down hill. I think many flat spots are created on locomotive wheels when they hit a greaser and slide while in dynamic braking. I've had trains balanced just right going down hill and then had them take off after the dynamics drop their load and the brake shoes on the cars get greased. CSX crews operating coal trains north from Youngstown to Ashtabula Ohio on the NS Youngstown line prefer to use the ungreased track up the hill out of Youngstown. CSX figures the tonnage rating of the AC units used on these trains on maximum adhesion. Put some grease on the rail and the adhesion is much lower,especially if you add some rain. Then you have to double the hill and tie up the railroad for some time. Conrail had greasers on some of their locomotives. They had a push button that would shut them off for 1/2 hour when climbing a hill. CSX has greasers on most if not all of their AC units and -8s , -9s, and some older units.

[athelney]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

On some railroads, you are less likely to see a flange lubricator because the grease/lubricant is applied either by the locomotive and/or a hi-rail truck by the local track supervisors.

The idea is to lubricate the gage side of the ball of rail and not the top of rail. If too much lubricant is applied to the rail, then it migrates up and over to the top of rail causing wheel slip. Maintenance folks are out there with "Goop Gauges" (real term) and tribometers trying to get the optimum amount of grease into play. The operating folks can whine all they want, but rail and wheel wear is every bit as critical. Randy Stahl and I might butt heads over maintenance of locomotive mounted lubricators, but a properly set up and managed locomotive flange lubricator would curtail the use of the wayside units and extend wheel and rail life. (ATSF GP-60's had them, there were cases of self induced wheel slip with the locomotives putting down grease in the wrong places....frequently the grease containers on the locos were found to be bone dry and had been that way for a while)

The old pump and plunger units had toubles with the new soy type lubricants and the new soy lubricants have troubles getting grease of the proper viscosity in cold weather out to the blades that apply grease to the rail. (That grease can carry over half a mile down the track if properly applied, a thin film is all that is needed)...The electric units do a good job (not perfect yet) of getting the grease out to the paddles/blades and saving some rail life.

http://www.rtands.com/feb01/lubrication.html

If you want to see a roadmaster, track supervisor or division engineer go ballistic, go out walking curves and find lots of shiny metal specks coating the base of rail[:(!][:(!][:(!]

Thanks mudchicken , that is the unit we have over here at Page -- I checked today & it is a Portec unit with solar panel the same as the picture on your web site you posted . Does it have a pump inside the box ? The old grease container is still sitting next to the new unit . Thanks again .

[Anonymous]

Instead of using flange greasers, the California Western ( aka the Skunk Train ) uses barrels of water that "drool" on the flanges of the wheels of all cars. They, I was told, have some of the tightest curves in the country.

[mudchicken]

The morphodite SD 45-2B's had them (all 3) along with the GP-60's. Beyond that, I have no idea which of the newer units got them. Since the merger and control by the resistant to change cascade green drones, I have no idea what happens now.

The grease containers were kept behind doors on the long hood end of the loco behind the fireman's side of the cab. The locomotive engineer had no control over the operation of the applicators. Grease was triggered by a switch triggered by orientation of the trucks in relation to the locomotive frame axis.

[espeefoamer]

ATSF GP60s were equipped with flange lubricators? These are slippery engines already.I could see a problem if the lubricator and sanding buttons were right next to each other[:0].Were any other locos so equipped?

[mudchicken]

On some railroads, you are less likely to see a flange lubricator because the grease/lubricant is applied either by the locomotive and/or a hi-rail truck by the local track supervisors.

The idea is to lubricate the gage side of the ball of rail and not the top of rail. If too much lubricant is applied to the rail, then it migrates up and over to the top of rail causing wheel slip. Maintenance folks are out there with "Goop Gauges" (real term) and tribometers trying to get the optimum amount of grease into play. The operating folks can whine all they want, but rail and wheel wear is every bit as critical. Randy Stahl and I might butt heads over maintenance of locomotive mounted lubricators, but a properly set up and managed locomotive flange lubricator would curtail the use of the wayside units and extend wheel and rail life. (ATSF GP-60's had them, there were cases of self induced wheel slip with the locomotives putting down grease in the wrong places....frequently the grease containers on the locos were found to be bone dry and had been that way for a while)

The old pump and plunger units had toubles with the new soy type lubricants and the new soy lubricants have troubles getting grease of the proper viscosity in cold weather out to the blades that apply grease to the rail. (That grease can carry over half a mile down the track if properly applied, a thin film is all that is needed)...The electric units do a good job (not perfect yet) of getting the grease out to the paddles/blades and saving some rail life.

http://www.rtands.com/feb01/lubrication.html

If you want to see a roadmaster, track supervisor or division engineer go ballistic, go out walking curves and find lots of shiny metal specks coating the base of rail[:(!][:(!][:(!]

[athelney]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Paul:

The principal purpose of a greaser is to reduce rail and wheel wear in sharp curves. The engineering department decides where to put them based on curvature, access to them, type of greaser, type of grease, etc. Usually you see them just in advance of a curve, or often in the tangent between two reverse curves.

The operating department really doesn't like greasers very much if they're on steep grades, as they reduce adhesion and they end up not being able to haul as much tonnage as they think they should for a given horsepower. If the greaser is turned up too high (puts out too much grease), the locomotives can go into a wheel slip as they cross the greaser, and the power surge breaks the train in two. The operating and engineering department spend a lot of time arguing about the relative costs, because the rail is paid for by engineering and the horsepower by operating.

To get beyond these generalities gets into technical discussion that's far beyond my expertise. I've seen articles that discuss the engineering aspects of greasers and predict the rail wear for a given curve radius, a given grease, a given type of rail, a given tonnage, etc., etc., and the formula are way beyond me. Suffice it to say that with greasers as with everything in railroading it's a tradeoff, and what solves one problem often creates six more.

Thanks Mark for the info. The flange greaser here in question is located at the end of about 1 1/2m of straight track , just before a grade crossing ( local road - not much traffic) , no grade involved here, it has been there for over 8 yrs that I know of, the line is used more since directional working was introduced by CN,CP a couple of years ago.Perhaps because of more use , the pressure type greaser could not keep up ? Hence the addition of electric pump?? The solar panel was installed very recently. Any thoughts

[CBQ_Guy]

What determines the location of a flange greaser, anyway?

Thank you...

[DPD1]

I've not seen one like that, but I assume it would be to run an electric pump. I think I recall reading some are just fed by some sort of mechanical pressure applied to the reservoir to make it squirt out. But I'm not sure.

Dave
Los Angeles, CA
-Rail Radio Online-Home of the "TrainTenna" RR Monitoring Antenna-
http://eje.railfan.net/railradioonline

[athelney]

Someone may know ! At my usual train watching spot there is a flange greaser for trains heading east from CN to CP lines over Mission River bridge . Now thats not unusual as it's a tight curve & used by many trains .But just recently they've added a solar panel to the set up !! Whats the advantage ?