Many old timers on the Rock Island told me about seeing frozen stiffs riding the blind arrivinhg at La Salle St Station during winter months.
Dick
I have always enjoyed the " Sunday Funnys" in the papers , however this thread on track pans has high comic value. The slope at the end of the pan surely is a hard way to dehorn a pneumatic ram ,~~~ the same for a hydraulic ram.
So much the Sunday Funnys today.
Cannonball
Y6bs evergreen in my mind
(Actually, I love it! Great pun, tree68!)
GN_Fan Track pans were used by most railroads when the track became too raw to us. the track is placed in the pan and sauteed for at least 30 minutes, then fried at high temperature for another hour. At the end of 90 minutes, the track was fully cooked and ready to use just like it was brand new. In the same vein, track detectors are activated with the passage of a train informing the crew whether the detector has detected any track or not. If a track is detected, it issues a statemet such as "Yup, you have track under your train." Well, someone's gotta make some fun here.
Track pans were used by most railroads when the track became too raw to us. the track is placed in the pan and sauteed for at least 30 minutes, then fried at high temperature for another hour. At the end of 90 minutes, the track was fully cooked and ready to use just like it was brand new. In the same vein, track detectors are activated with the passage of a train informing the crew whether the detector has detected any track or not. If a track is detected, it issues a statemet such as "Yup, you have track under your train." Well, someone's gotta make some fun here.
Probably good with a side of ties, too...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
That derailment was refered to and explained in the link provided in one of the first posts in this thread.
http://jimquest.com/writ/trains/pans/scoop.htm
carnej1 switch7frg: I wonder how many scoops were damaged because they weren't pulled up in time. That could be an embarresment to the scoop operator. Or for dropping the scoop too soon. Cannonball I seem to recall reading (in a very old issue of Popular Science, IIRC) that the NYC experienced a major train wreck with multiple fatalities which was caused by the locomotive water scoop not retracting in time and causing the engine to derail at high speed. I seem to recall it was a Niagara locomotive and it occured in the 1940's.... anyone know more?
switch7frg: I wonder how many scoops were damaged because they weren't pulled up in time. That could be an embarresment to the scoop operator. Or for dropping the scoop too soon. Cannonball
I wonder how many scoops were damaged because they weren't pulled up in time. That could be an embarresment to the scoop operator. Or for dropping the scoop too soon.
I seem to recall reading (in a very old issue of Popular Science, IIRC) that the NYC experienced a major train wreck with multiple fatalities which was caused by the locomotive water scoop not retracting in time and causing the engine to derail at high speed. I seem to recall it was a Niagara locomotive and it occured in the 1940's....
anyone know more?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
switch7frg I wonder how many scoops were damaged because they weren't pulled up in time. That could be an embarresment to the scoop operator. Or for dropping the scoop too soon. Cannonball
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Back to the matter at hand: Most track pans had graded ends to minimize damage to the scoop and other hardware if the fireman's timing was off when the scoop was to be raised.
GN_Fan,
"Alea lacta est" is not what you mean. You mean, "Alea iacta est." The word "lacta" is the word for Cassia, a type of flower!
Off topic, but the phrase "Alea iacta est" was never better used (well, after Caesar, of course!) than when Tom L. Johnson was running for Mayor of Cleveland at the turn of the century. His opponent, trying to impress his audience with his erudition, used the Latin phrase to indicate he was running for Mayor. Johnson, speaking the more prosaic language of working people, ridiculed the phrase and said it simply meant, "Let her go, Gallagher!" The crowd loved it and loved Johnson, "the best mayor of the best-governed city in America," according to Lincoln Steffens.
To extend your food metaphor: It must have been men who invented track pans because it's about all some of us can do just to heat water!
I thought they went out when there were no more engines with fires in them to cook on.
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A bit of history:
Having been tried in Europe, it was the New York & New England Railroad that first installed "Track Pans", and they did it just west of Putnum Connecticut. J.P. Morgan's New Haven Railroad had gained control of the New York & New England as well as the Boston & New York Airline Railroad and started "The New England Limited" in 1886. In 1890, re-equiped with new White & Gold parlor cars and re-named "The White Train" (The Ghost Train), It featured a 6 hour run Boston, to Willimantic, to Middletown, to New Haven, and New York.
The train stopped for an engine change at Willimantic Connecticut. To make the run from Boston to Willimantic, heated Track Pans were installed in the Putnum area and was much photographed at the time.
Ghost Train taking water, looks like the Fireman is watching for the end of the "Pans" to come up.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
"Bo's would be riding the between cars, on precarious perches on the ends and sides and under cars. For most it was their first bath in years as well as their last.
At the end of the pan was a device to lift the scoop to prevent damage. I remember seeing a drawing of the mechanism, but cannot place it now.
Water tanks in cold climates were heated - anything from a stove in the rectangular enclosure around the central fill pipe to a complete structure that contained the water tank. It wasn't necessary to keep the tank toasty, just a degree or two above freezing was adequate.
It would be the fireman, not the engineer, who would have that sinking feeling. The scoop was the fireman's responsibility.
Ticketless train riders liked to ride in "the blind," the space between the (usually doorless) lead car and the tender. A locomotive taking water from a track pan would throw a lot of it around, and water from an over-filled cistern could lift the water hatch and then pour off the tender deck. The story is that a PRR crew found a freerider (not the word used in the story) on the tender rear platform, completely encased in ice.
People alongside the right of way could also get a free shower. Don't ask how I know this!
Chuck
Cannonball,
Can you imagine the sparks and sound a big steel scoop makes when it's hitting the end of a track pan at speed and tearing up not only the track pan but the scoop itself? And can you imagine the feeling an engineer must have had following such a moment? I think that's when a man's whole career passes before his eyes, so to speak. A few minutes "on the carpet" must inevitably follow.
I think I remember reading someplace ( in Trains?) about men who would ride on the back of a locomotive tender (not sure exactly where) in freezing weather. When the locomotive would go through the track pans some water would wind up being thrown all over the hapless man, resulting in his death.
Is this urban legend? Did this in fact happen?
Also, if steam was used to heat track pans, why didn't the water in conventional tanks freeze? What about in places like northern New England? How did tanks there keep from freezing up in bitterly low temperatures?
Both NYCand PRR freights used track pans.
Paul
Track pans were used on the CASO Division (MCRR, NYC, PC) between Windsor and Niagara Falls Ontario. This was double track, with long tangent stretches and was a largely level 'speedway' with St Thomas, Ontario at its centre.
The pans were used with both fast freight and passenger trains up into the late 1950's IIRC. I remember reading employee instructions about their use, especially the raising and lowering of scoops. Among other things, speed was of essence. I believe a minimum of 50 mph was required to make them work effectively. They were steam heated in the winter. I recall seeing tenders for their removal after the days of steam which included the removal of associated stationary boilers and auxiliaries.
I had relatives on the CASO running crews. Wish I'd asked them about the practice. Was just a kid then so never thought to do so.
Charlie Lenz
NKP guy - I think your assumption is correct. The track pans saved a few minutes time from having to stop and take on more water, which would matter only if the train wasn't going to be stopping frequently anyway - which pretty much excludes freights and low-speed or frequent stop passenger runs.
One result was that railroads with track pans had tenders on their steam power that maximized the coal (oil) bunker space and capacity, and had a small water compartment - because that could be replenished easily and often with the track pans.
I seem to recall that the PRR's 4-8-2 "Mountain" types (at least) with the "coast-to-coast" tenders had water scoops, and they were often used in fast freight service, so perhaps that was done with some freights also.
- Paul North.
Keeping huge fleets of passenger trains moving was sure a consideration. But so was the lack of huge piles of money in company coffers and the percieved need.
It's been noted that the NYC, PRR, and B&O Royal Blue route used track pans. But I note that the B&O in Ohio, Indiana, etc did not, nor did the Erie or Nickel Plate. They all had the same flat right-of-ways in Ohio and west, so my guess is that track pans only paid off if a railroad had a significant number of passenger trains. If the goal was to keep trains moving, that would seem not to matter so much for mostly-freight railroads. Would this be a correct assumption?
Like they said, more RRs than you'd think tried track pans once upon a time. The track has to be level of course, but no reason it has to be straight. Don't recall if the PRR Mapleton pans were curved, but Trains has a pic of the Rahway pans on a slight curve (a Clodfelter pic from a GG1).
A very interesting and informative article.
samfp1943 Here is an interesting link that explores Track Pan rewatering of Steam locomotives. It also add to the list of railroads that used track pans within their systems: "Scooping Water in the Age of Steam" by James Alexander,jr. http://jimquest.com/writ/trains/pans/scoop.htm
Here is an interesting link that explores Track Pan rewatering of Steam locomotives. It also add to the list of railroads that used track pans within their systems:
"Scooping Water in the Age of Steam"
by James Alexander,jr.
Michigan Central had track pans, according to this article:
http://ypsiciti.com/section/Opinions/Ypsilanti%27s+%27jerkwater%27+history-article-1519.html
and another site that explores the PRR Track Pan installation at Wilmore,Pa on the Western slope of the Alleghenies, another site by Mr. Alexander,as well: http://jimquest.com/writ/trains/pans/wilmore1.htm
http://aamrc.org/hvrrhs/trackpans This link is to track pans in Michigan named after Wilson S.Kinnear, and station adjacent to the first installation near Ann Arbor and later moved to a place between Dexter and Chelsea,Mi.
I remember reading that in the first experiment to see if it would work, the inrush of water blew the top off the tender! Baffles had to be installed to get the water to disperse with less impact on the sides and top of the tender to minimize the chance of the tender exploding.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
The PRR pans in Wilmore Pennsylvania had a boiler house and piping to provide steam keeping the pans from freezing. The pans were installed along with a stone lining where usually track ballast would be. When the water splashed away from the pans and onto the stone it drained and eventually flowed into the ballast under the stones or a trackside ditch.
>>>You needed a good long, straight stretch of track to be able to drop the scoop, pick up a goodly amount of water, then pick up the pan all without damaging anything.
Don't forget it had to be level too. No grades.
I understand the pans were steam traced in the winter to keep them from freezing. I don't know what happened with all the ice that would have formed from the splash.
You needed a good long, straight stretch of track to be able to drop the scoop, pick up a goodly amount of water, then pick up the pan all without damaging anything. So, the railroad had to select locations carefully. NYC and PRR were the main users as noted, as well as B&O. Rock Island is in the back of my mind for some reason and perhaps Sante Fe. A lot of water was thrown out and away from the track and train, too, most of which was recovered and put back into the ponding tank but you didn't want to be a passing or meeting train especially with open windows!
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