Who makes the numbers?

[Anonymous]

On western roads it was customary to have changeble number boards to reflect the train number, or "X" with the engine number for an extra. To the best of my knowledge the rest of raildom just had the engine number on the front with only the lead locomotive's boards illuminated. Metra Electric uses changeble numbers on the front and rear of their MUs. May I add that "western roads" is defined as SP,UP,and SN.
Mitch

[MP173]

I sell graphics as a career, primarily to truck fleets, but my largest account is a rail customer and I have several rail accounts.

Someone had asked about clearcoating. Not needed for white, black, or standard colors. Printed colors do need clearcoat in order to remain colorfast.

My rail accounts are all for cars and it was an amazing process to go thru 15 years ago to convert rail fleets from paint to decal. But today nearly all new cars and locomotives are decals.

The numberboard would be easy to do, simply apply the prespaced number onto the plastic material and paint if necessary, then remove the premask.

AAR has a list of approved films in their Section L.

MP

[Anonymous]

Mark,
To my knowledge only sandblasting was used. Between the Milwaukee and the South Shore I did work for a private car operator in Chicago. We would have custom made drum signs for our clients. We would use Western Sandblasting of Chicago. At the time, in the early '80s, it was still run by Bob Pine whose family founded the company. They had made almost all the drum signs for railroads, a lot of etched glass partitions for Pullman-Standard's streamlined equipment, the etched mirrors for the 400, and most signs and glass for the major Chicago hotels. In fact he had a pile of etched mirrors and partitions stacked in a corner of his shop. It was all done with sandblasting. Beautiful work I might add. We had a mirror acid etched for the private car by someone in the Twin Cities. It never matched the depth or resound of Mr. Pine's work.
Mitch

[Overmod]

Hey Artmark: to your knowledge, did any people doing railroad art on glass use hydrofluoric acid etch with resist, rather than airblasting with grit? Seems to me this would give some better control over the various regions to be painted in different colors, for example if only the areas to be painted a particular color were etched or frosted before laying on the color... and the painted surface were resistant to further HF etch.

[Overmod]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but those 'changeable' SP boards are train number boards, not locomotive numbers. When an 'extra' movement was being run, it was assigned "X" for extra, and then the locomotive number for ID (probably because this distinctively identified the extra's 'train number' -- not likely to be two trains headed by the same-numbered locomotive even with run-throughs by other roads -- and also contained the information needed to identify the type, etc. of locomotive heading up the train.

BTW, there were studies done in Britain which established that white-on-black numbers were considerably easier to read, and resolvable from a longer distance, at night. They also researched rather carefully which typefaces were most legible for a given external numberboard dimension, and which colors of background light were best for night and day visibility. In a previous life, I actually had a copy of some of the research results.

This is from the country that commissioned one of the great type designers to come up with the most readable-at-a-glance typeface he could develop, for use as subway lettering -- the result, of course, being the famous "Underground" style.

Reason to use stick-on letters is to avoid the need for 'diffusers' such as frosted light bulbs or white-painted or Scotchlite 'reflectors' inside the numberboard enclosures. If you use white translucent Plexiglas stock, you can't paint reverse numbers on the inside and have them clearly visible in the daytime... but proper surface prep and modern adhesive on the stick-on numbers makes for economical cheapne$$ (and doesn't require someone with painting skill to make up the boards).

I'm tempted to say that which type of lettering you pick would depend on how you run the numbers... but that would be one of the most truly awful puns yet!

[Anonymous]

When I was on the South Shore both as art director and later engineer, I made the letterboards. I did most of the MU equipment's boards. I used the old SSL number style by re-drawing the numbers, 0-9, on tracing paper. I took a pattern wheel, or "tracing wheel," and perforated the outlines. Then I would take a cheesecloth bag filled with powdered chalk and "pounce" the perforated outline on the selected numbers taped to the pre-cut plexiglass panels. With black sign painter's "One Shot" black I painted the backround and left the numbers open. An old technique, espcially with drum signs was to layout the design and sand blast the areas to be painted on glass. The One Shot sign painter's paint is remarkably durable. A clear coat of varnish is OK, but it may peal with time.

I remeber that Power Parts in Chicago had numbers for the boards including the old EMD style of square numbers.

I favor white, illuminated numbers on a dark backround. The reason is that that white area increases visualy when illuminated, causing the dark area to diminish. It's easier to read the information at a distance with the dark backround. Just like a blackboard with white chalk.
Mitch

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mvlandsw

CSX uses white boards with black numbers. Some of them have the raised numbers that are bonded to the white board as mentioned by louisnash.

It's also possible that those numberboards were actually cast in relief. Not hard to do, and the numbers never fade....

I'm guessing here, but I think SP was probably one of the last to abandon numberboards with changeable characters. An "X" was added to the front of the number, making it the train number (eXtra 1234).

[mvlandsw]

CSX uses white boards with black numbers. Some of them have the raised numbers that are bonded to the white board as mentioned by louisnash.

[louisnash]

I was wondering. And that does make sense (and make it easy) for the railroads to do them like that.

I have a couple of numberboards that were given to me from TTI RR in Paris KY around 1990 that were completely different from the way they are doing it today.

The ones I have are a piece of plastic (not clear, but white) about 1/4" thick. The numbers on them however are actually a thick black number a little bigger than 1/8" thick. The numbers on the ones I got actually look as though they may have been superglued (just a guess) on. They could have been put on a different way.

Thanks for all the help
Brian (KY)

[edblysard]

Man,
All those degrees and such.....

Ok, take peel and stick letter, reverse cut, available at Hobby Lobby, Teachers Supply, or just about any office supply, apply to the inside of the plexi glass, spray paint the inside flat black, let dry.
Remove the letters, and Ta-Da...a number board, with the clear, un-painted surface to the out side, the paint on the inside, where it cant get too badly scratched...
Mount in the number board box, with a frosted lightbulb installed.

Crisp, white, correct facing numbers when viewed form the outside.

Made a lighted street address number board for the house like this, got the idea from pokeing around inside a locomotives nose, and got nosey with the number boards.

You can see the raised edge from the paint around the outer edge of the clear numbers, ran my finger over it, the painted surface was the raised part, the paint was on the inside.


What is it Mookie always says?
Raise 'em up, buy 'em books, send 'em to school, and they eat the covers?

Ed[:D]

[Big_Boy_4005]

Mark, I'm surprised that they hold up that well at track speed, and with weather, without some kind of protection. Maybe a clear coat?

By the way, I was just flipping through some fairly recent photos, and ran across a couple of examples of black on white boards. The Soo red and whites had them, and the Twin Cities & Western uses them. BNSF, UP, and CP all have the white on black.

[Big_Boy_4005]

The normal way to create white numbers on black would be to mask off the numbers on the translucent material, paint it all black, then peel off the masking. Peel and sticks would be handy for the masking process.

It is possible that they place a clear layer of plex directly against the painted surface for protection when they install them. They wouldn't look any different, but it would make them last a lot longer.

This is just common signage technique. Similar examples of back lit signs can be found in front of businesses everywhere.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Isn't a number board just a translucent piece of glass or plexiglass with the numbers painted on? Aren't the actual boards housed behind a piece of glass to protect them from the elements?

They're not really all that fancy or complicated. If they aren't a standard size, then the paint shop may keep a supply of different sized blanks handy and make a set as necessary. Maybe they don't even paint them, maybe they are peel and stick.

ML - Main Line? Just a guess.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Brian, probably you didn't get an answer to the first question because no one knows. I don't. I'm afraid I don't know the answer to the second one for every railroad -- the ones I've worked for just made their own -- as needed.

But the nice thing is, that unanswerable questions are never dull.

[louisnash]

I have always wondered about when RR's change the numbers on the locomotives. I know this can happen several times to the same loco. I have even noticed some loco's that have two different numberboards.

Where does the RR's get their number boards for the locomotives at?
Who makes them?
Do they have a set in storage somewhere?

I didn't get any response from my RR tie post and was also wondering what the CSXML means on the end of the new ties. I know about the CSX, but what about the ML. These letters were stamped on the end of the new ties they were replacing on the CSX CC sub in Northern KY.


Thanks for all your help
Brian (KY)