March 2012
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These cars are hauling wet feed.
watch?v=wqTv5T67e8
At 1:00 into that video there is a new Coal Gondola with a cover that looks like it could be a prototype coal dust cover. The reporting marks appear to be TLX.
Andrew Falconer
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The railroads will have to go to a few discount stores and start buying tarps.
Andrew
Water would be needed for a effective coal slurry pipe line - water is a scarce commodity in the Powder River basin area.
Andrew Falconer If the coal was that fine, it is surprising that the utilities did not choose pipelines to move the coal. Andrew
If the coal was that fine, it is surprising that the utilities did not choose pipelines to move the coal.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Hoppers and gons could get tarps on them.
Sure would be a pain to deal with, lots of extra time and man power to open them up, and close after loading.
MILW used to load coal trains with lids, Big stone trains I think they were. That coal was real fine, lignite, blew out real easy.
PRB coal is needed to meet emissions. Mandates for covers would just drive up costs down the line, and all of us who use electricity would pay. If there was a way to burn garbage for power generation...
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Andrew Falconer If the coal is so easily crushed, the mines and railroads could have solved the problem earlier by powderizing the coal and sending it in Pressure-Differential aluminum body covered hoppers built by Trinity and FreightCar America. Now they will have to retro-fit some type of cover on the coal gondolas and hoppers. Andrew
If the coal is so easily crushed, the mines and railroads could have solved the problem earlier by powderizing the coal and sending it in Pressure-Differential aluminum body covered hoppers built by Trinity and FreightCar America.
Now they will have to retro-fit some type of cover on the coal gondolas and hoppers.
All of which would probably price PRB coal out of many markets.
The particular coal being transported today (PRB) is such that the more you handle it the more it crumbles to dust. Even if you were to sift it as you loaded the car the larger particles that end up in the car would crumble as they hit the car, creating more dust that would need to be removed. And "in transit" the vibration would just create more dust that you'd have to stop and sift out, and that process would just create even more dust.
Makes the name of the coal area quite apropos, "Powder River Basin"!!
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
If they can seperate the finer particles from the coarse particles they could be sifted and sent in the proper freight cars.
The large amount fine coal particulates could be what is sent in covered hoppers to coal burning power plants.
Would it be practical to have a sliding tarpulin cover that is held in place by two rods on the sides of the car. The tarp is fastened to the rods by large eyelets in it. The tarp slides on the rods extending past the A end of the car when it is loaded or unloaded.
From what I gather, there are three issues with the coal dust:
1) The loss of product.
2) The air pollution of coal dust.
3) The damage to track.
Item #3 is the greatest concern for the railroad companies. Item #1 seems to be the least concern to all parties. Item #2 is likely to be a major concern of the regulators.
What seems to be presently on the front burner is item #3, and the debate between the railroads and the shippers about who should pay for the loss incurred by track damage. It seems to have been largely resolved that the shippers must bear this cost.
Also, from what I gather, the preferred remedy for coal dust is not covering the hoppers. Instead, the preferred remedy is either top coating with a binder; or vibrating the top layer to settle the fines, so they will be out of the wind during the train ride.
Whatever method of dust control is selected, there will be a huge reward for the providers of the solution, and so the competition for the solution must be fierce. But this will not be just an accord between the industry and the solution providers. The bigger player will be the regulators boosted by the environmentalists. And because the would-be solution providers know this, they will pitch their solution to the regulators first and foremost. The industry may or may not like the solution, but if the regulators like it, they will simply force the industry to accept it.
So competing solution providers must know how to ring the chimes of the regulators, and since this issue has “green” written all over it, the chimes are clear. One of those chimes is water conservation. We are entering a new era where water is owned by the collective, and not by the person living above the water. So, with the rising regulation of water use, it is no wonder that the makers of coal car covers are trumpeting the advantage of covers needing no water, whereas the liquid binder topcoat on the coal loads does require the use of water.
The cover makers know that the regulators who will ultimately force the decision can easily be persuaded to go further than just banning dust. The regulators will also dictate to the industry exactly how and how not to eliminate the dust. So I would bet on expensive, complicated covers as being the adopted solution. I would also bet on the dust regulations going all the way back to the mining operation itself and the dust generated in that process, including loading and unloading the train.
My understanding is the Powder River basin coal does not have the rock like crystalline consistency the coal from the Eastern US mines does. Washing it, in a area that has limited natural water resources, would leave much of the tonnage of PRB coal back at the wash plant in the fines the the railroads are having trouble with - fines, that in areas other than the top of the hopper get delivered to the customer as the tonnage the customer paid for.
Covers, no matter the kind or construction, add another expensive level of maintenance to the thousands of cars that would require them. Maintenance that has to be funded by someone - either shipper, consignee or carrier - maintenance that none of the named parties are willing to fund.
rrnut282 Wouldn't it be far cheaper, easier, lighter to ship, and a lot less maintenance involved to just wash the coal at the mine before loading? The electric companies benefit in that they aren't paying to ship dust that gets lost, they end up with a better coal to burn, they don't have to fight covers when they unload, etc.
Wouldn't it be far cheaper, easier, lighter to ship, and a lot less maintenance involved to just wash the coal at the mine before loading? The electric companies benefit in that they aren't paying to ship dust that gets lost, they end up with a better coal to burn, they don't have to fight covers when they unload, etc.
Wouldn't it be far cheaper, easier, lighter to ship, and a lot less maintenence involved to just wash the coal at the mine before loading? The electric companies benefit in that they aren't paying to ship dust that gets lost, they end up with a better coal to burn, they don't have to fight covers when they unload, etc.
It will indeed be interesting to see how these covers work out.
Sounds good on paper, but will they work in real life?
Norm
Here is something that I am amazed they have not thought of Trying yet. Roll on tarps powered by air heck if a tarp can cover Glass Gravel Steel with sharp corners it would be able to cover Coal. Now how to Mount and Operate it. Simple mount it on the Side of the car and use an air motor to wind it and unwind it up. Very easy to do.
I would be surprised if they have not already built a prototype or even a production unit. But curiously, some of their other marketing refers to the covers for coal cars as being intended to reduce aerodynamic drag in order to save fuel, and says nothing about preventing dust from escaping. So maybe the coal dust prevention just came along as a better justification for a product that started out intended for a different purpose.
I don’t find any other details about the concept besides what you have posted above. The biggest mystery is how the primary covers are powered open and closed. Apparently the secondary covers are opened and closed by gravity if the car is run through a rotary dumper. If the car is bottom dumped, the secondary covers would not be opened and closed for either dumping or loading. I wonder if the primary covers are opened and closed by pneumatic cylinders fed from the train line.
Or maybe they would have a second train line through the cars just for operating the covers. Then you would simultaneously open and close all the covers in the train.
When will somebody be able to build and test the CoalCap?
BaltACD In severe weather - think 100 ton black ice cube that won't release from the tray. Bucyrus: Here is what I wonder about: Does coal freeze up into large masses during shipment? What affect does this have on dumping from conventional, non-covered cars when dumped through the bottom of the hoppers? Does that ever pose a problem with frozen chunks being too big to fall through the openings?
In severe weather - think 100 ton black ice cube that won't release from the tray.
Bucyrus: Here is what I wonder about: Does coal freeze up into large masses during shipment? What affect does this have on dumping from conventional, non-covered cars when dumped through the bottom of the hoppers? Does that ever pose a problem with frozen chunks being too big to fall through the openings?
It seems to me that these clamshell car covers would be subject to damage easily if the car was emptying in a rotary dumper; and after the top of the load poured out freely, some multi-ton frozen chunks broke loose and tumbled down against the hinged covers.
Bucyrus Here is what I wonder about: Does coal freeze up into large masses during shipment? What affect does this have on dumping from conventional, non-covered cars when dumped through the bottom of the hoppers? Does that ever pose a problem with frozen chunks being too big to fall through the openings?
That sure looks like a well-designed cover concept. There was another cover design by another company using fiberglass covers and split side-to-side to open. But that would not work in a rotary dumper. It did use the movement of the hopper car relative to a fixed feature to mechanically open and close the covers.
Off hand, I do not see how these clamshell covers are powered open and closed. Obviously, it is going to require some type of power actuator. It is interesting that this system uses the “cover-in-a-cover” design. So the cover that opens and closes for the fill is not the same cover that opens and closes for the dump. If you only had the clamshell covers that open and close for the fill, they would fling open violently when the car went over center during the dump rotation.
But with this double door system, the clamshell covers need to stay closed during the dump rotation. It looks like the sides of the dumper frame prevent the clamshell covers from opening. This whole system seems pretty complicated.
Here is what I wonder about: Does coal freeze up into large masses during shipment? What affect does this have on dumping from conventional, non-covered cars when dumped through the bottom of the hoppers? Does that ever pose a problem with frozen chunks being too big to fall through the openings?
The cost of this system is bound to be an issue for the railroads, and I would expect there to be considerable resistance from them. However, the makers of this system are probably focusing on pitching it to the government regulators. It should be very easy to convince them, and then they will simply force the railroads to buy it.
Over the years the railroads have tried covers on open top hoppers, not for coal but for grain when the supply of covered hoppers became stressed - generally with a notable lack of long term success. Something to cover a opening of approximately 9 feet wide and 50 feet long is very unwieldy - it must be removed to permit loading of all cars and for unloading where rotary dumpers are used. Machinery must be purchased to handle the covers at loading points and destination points where required - at whose expense? The cover must be light to minimize unproductive tare weight, being light and unwieldy makes breakage routinely likely at a expense to someone (either shipper or carrier), not counting the original purchase expense of the covers to start with. Remember, in bulk commodities, transportation is a large part of the delivered price and anything that increases the delivered price is fought against tooth and nail.
Semper Vaporo I think the only reduction in capacity would be the loss of the tare weight of the lids. Around here, if you get a high vantage point to look at the coal cars, you'll see that the coal is piled higher than the sides of the car in the middle, but at the ends the pile slumps off all the way down to the sloped end sheets (or about half way down the height of the car sides). i think if they were to flatten the "hill" of coal in the car, the whole load would be below the edge of the car and you could lay a flat lid in it that is even with the sides of the car. So adding lids would further reduce the amount of coal the car could transport.
I think the only reduction in capacity would be the loss of the tare weight of the lids. Around here, if you get a high vantage point to look at the coal cars, you'll see that the coal is piled higher than the sides of the car in the middle, but at the ends the pile slumps off all the way down to the sloped end sheets (or about half way down the height of the car sides). i think if they were to flatten the "hill" of coal in the car, the whole load would be below the edge of the car and you could lay a flat lid in it that is even with the sides of the car. So adding lids would further reduce the amount of coal the car could transport.
Andrew Falconer Found a website for a new way to cover coal hoppers and gondolas for fast loading and unloading. COAL CAP http://coalcap.com/ http://coalcap.com/benefits.asp The coal car cover has hinges for each step of loading and unloading. Andrew Falconer
Found a website for a new way to cover coal hoppers and gondolas for fast loading and unloading.
COAL CAP
http://coalcap.com/
http://coalcap.com/benefits.asp
The coal car cover has hinges for each step of loading and unloading.
Intereting, a system like this could be the wave of the future in coal hauling.
I surmise from the fact that all the images on the site are CGI rather than photos that the company hasn't built a prototype as of yet..
One drawback I can see is that the Gondolas have to be loaded so that the cap will close securely which may not slightly reduce the amount of coal carried.
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
There is a method of collection of fines off the belt. A hood over the conveyor draws dust off the belt and transfers it to a filter then transported to a silo for loading in a 2-bay covered hopper.
Google "coal dust collectors."
Thank you Sam ! Been on the computer for many years now and still haven't figured out how to post a link right.
Fear an Ignorant Man more than a Lion- Turkish proverb
Modeling an ficticious HO scale intergrated Scrap Yard & Steel Mill Melt Shop.
Southland Industrial Railway or S.I.R for short. Enterchanging with Norfolk Southern.
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