Thanks for posting those links for everyone's education, information, and enjoyment!
Don't know that the 'pro-development of the wilderness' tone of the last page of the 1986 article would be popular today.
- PDN.
Paul_D_North_Jr See: "To Alaska or bust on a mixed train - British Columbia Railway's Dease Lake line" by McMillan, Joe, and Patterson, Steve - Trains, August 1986, pg. 25; and, "3 Budds, 7 days, 2446 miles - Excursion covering entire British Columbia Railway" by Ingles, J. David - Trains, February 1988, pg. ? - Paul North.
See: "To Alaska or bust on a mixed train - British Columbia Railway's Dease Lake line" by McMillan, Joe, and Patterson, Steve - Trains, August 1986, pg. 25; and,
Ask and you shall receive, I'm only 8 years late!
https://mrr.trains.com/-/media/Files/PDF/2017/TRN81986_2535Lowerres.pdf
http://mrr.trains.com/-/media/Files/PDF/2017/1988_1819.pdf
And while not particularly exciting, this is the only video footage I have ever seen of a train on the Takla Subdivision (Dease Lake line):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w19tugri8Yc
The third locomotive is painted for the short-lived "Whistler Northwind" excursion train.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Those small refineries near Fairbanks were for local consumption, so I don't know what a Canadian tie-in would be.
Murphy Siding MidlandMike Murphy Siding Are you talking about a simple upgrader which would convert the bitumen to syncrude to send thru a pipeline? There are some in northern Alberta, but it does not seem to be a popular option. Or are you talking about a major refinery to produce multiple products which would create their own multiple transportation requirements? I obviously don't know anything refineries or pipelines. I'm just thinking that a pipeline through rugged country would be easier than a rail line. To be fair, I doubt that either a rail line or a pipeline; or a refinery for that matter, would be popular.
MidlandMike Murphy Siding Are you talking about a simple upgrader which would convert the bitumen to syncrude to send thru a pipeline? There are some in northern Alberta, but it does not seem to be a popular option. Or are you talking about a major refinery to produce multiple products which would create their own multiple transportation requirements?
Murphy Siding
Are you talking about a simple upgrader which would convert the bitumen to syncrude to send thru a pipeline? There are some in northern Alberta, but it does not seem to be a popular option. Or are you talking about a major refinery to produce multiple products which would create their own multiple transportation requirements?
I obviously don't know anything refineries or pipelines. I'm just thinking that a pipeline through rugged country would be easier than a rail line. To be fair, I doubt that either a rail line or a pipeline; or a refinery for that matter, would be popular.
It was around about 2010 that the ARR started to push for an extension to the area of Delta Jct. Costs were going to be somewhere around $150M ($40M or so from the State of Ak)[ the US Gov was to come in at about $100M]. The major construction obstacle was the Tanana R bridge (was competed in about 2014) but then the State ran inot financial issues due to the falling price of crude oil(?). So the completion has been backed off(?).
The larger of the in-state petroleum refineries was the one near North Pole,Ak. Its' feed was off the TAP (Trans Ak Pipeline to port at Valdez). It was built around the late 1970's by Williams petroleum(?). It was sold to Flint Hills Refining[Koch Bros] about 2004. At some [point after that, it was discovered to have some groundwater 'issues' from leaking products(?).] So Flint Hills mothballed the facility and not being able to find another buyer has started demolition(?)
See Link @https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2014/apr/21/did-koch-brothers-run-alaskan-oil-refinery-ground/
There is another refinery in that area that is locally owned, and lower capacity, but apparently, growing that capacity(?) Petrostar is a locally owned operator that apparently is also a retailer of ptroleum products(?).
Point being, that there is at present, already, a limited anount of in-state refining capacity along the potential routing of the ARR, and its possible linkage to the Canadian extension.
Maybe, this will be something that will be of interest to follow on this Forum?
caldreamer I do not understand what the problem is. The US army built the Trans Alaska Highway from Vancouver to Anchorage. It is now a nice paved highway. Just build the ROW next to the highway. The area next to the highway is pretty well cleared. NO WHERE AS MUCH WORK OR COST. Why make 10 times a much work for your self when you do not have too. Does no take Albert Einsteins to figure that one out. Caldreamer
I do not understand what the problem is. The US army built the Trans Alaska Highway from Vancouver to Anchorage. It is now a nice paved highway. Just build the ROW next to the highway. The area next to the highway is pretty well cleared. NO WHERE AS MUCH WORK OR COST. Why make 10 times a much work for your self when you do not have too. Does no take Albert Einsteins to figure that one out.
Caldreamer
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
At some point of development Alaska is going to need both a direct rail linkage as well as better highway access. I don't think a rail ferry service is going to cut it for the state once it reaches a certain size. Of course it is growing all that rapidly in population yet and so it the current transportation setup works.
I still think that if Russia ever became a trully democratic and growth oriented country (a long shot given it's track record). If Russia started a major spending plan along with Japan and China for the Russian far east. Alaska would also increase it's trade / development / population growth as a neighboring state enough so that development of a internal rail and highway system would start to make sense.
I don't think we will ever see Russia undertake such a development program in our lifetime as it is still living in the 1900's politically. Views the WWII captured Northern Japanese Islands as some kind of great trophy (because Japan kicked it's butt in the Russo - Japanese War probably), and is way too paranoid about China to let China come in and do serious development. So most of this is wishful thinking at best.
MidlandMike Murphy Siding Again, I wonder. Why not a refinery where the bitumen/ oil sands are and a pipeline to the port of Valdez? Are you talking about a simple upgrader which would convert the bitumen to syncrude to send thru a pipeline? There are some in northern Alberta, but it does not seem to be a popular option. Or are you talking about a major refinery to produce multiple products which would create their own multiple transportation requirements?
Murphy Siding Again, I wonder. Why not a refinery where the bitumen/ oil sands are and a pipeline to the port of Valdez?
kgbw49 Interesting proposed route: http://www.pnwer.org/uploads/2/3/2/9/23295822/john_falcetta_-_alberta_to_alaska_railway.pdf
Interesting proposed route:
http://www.pnwer.org/uploads/2/3/2/9/23295822/john_falcetta_-_alberta_to_alaska_railway.pdf
I noticed they are going by the Faro mine which used to truck concentrate to the WP&Y before it closed for low mineral prices.
kgbw49 http://www.pnwer.org/uploads/2/3/2/9/23295822/john_falcetta_-_alberta_to_alaska_railway.pdf
The above link mentions 8 -12 loaded trains ( 192 cars + locos ) and same emptys. For our dispatching and operating ppersons what would be the ideal distance ( probably in time ) spacing for sidings ? That would also include the necessary maintenance windows for planned and unplanned work. Including derailments.
Would desired siding be two train lengths + tail track for Bad ordered cars ?
Hi All
Never say never I guess.
The NW Transmission Line from Terrace to Red Chris Mine(Kiniskin Lk/Iskut area) is in operation so power is less expensive than it could have been otherwise. There has been lots of mineral exploration along the Dease Highway but I don't know if any of it has panned out so far.
I still think construction costs and operating costs would be prohibitive along the former Dease Lk Extension. Along the Alaska Highway even more so.
Charlie
Chilliwack, BC
samfp1943 That’s also part of the plan for a second group chasing the dream of an Alberta-to-Alaska rail connection. G7G Railway Corp. is proposing “a new, approximately 2,450 km long, purpose-built, state-of-the-art railway from the oil sands of Ft. McMurray and Peace River regions of Alberta connecting to the Pacific tidewater ports of Valdez and Anchorage, Alaska.”..." I was in Valdez as a kid in the early 1970's. From my recollection, a railroad to Valdez would be the most awesome mountain railroad ever built. I remember how all the big, rugged hills would bog down my parent's van pulling a camper. The landscape looks a lot like Norweigan tourist brochures. Again, I wonder. Why not a refinery where the bitumen/ oil sands are and a pipeline to the port of Valdez?
That’s also part of the plan for a second group chasing the dream of an Alberta-to-Alaska rail connection. G7G Railway Corp. is proposing “a new, approximately 2,450 km long, purpose-built, state-of-the-art railway from the oil sands of Ft. McMurray and Peace River regions of Alberta connecting to the Pacific tidewater ports of Valdez and Anchorage, Alaska.”..." I was in Valdez as a kid in the early 1970's. From my recollection, a railroad to Valdez would be the most awesome mountain railroad ever built. I remember how all the big, rugged hills would bog down my parent's van pulling a camper. The landscape looks a lot like Norweigan tourist brochures. Again, I wonder. Why not a refinery where the bitumen/ oil sands are and a pipeline to the port of Valdez?
At the risk of being accused of 'resurecting a zombie' topic I have reched back in time, and pulled up a previous, Forum discussion of a topic that has lain, more or less, fallow for about 10 years.
On April 8, of this yeard the TRAINSNewswire carried the following header: "Canadian development company renews push for rail line linking Alaska to the lower 48 states" By Bill Virgin
FTA:"...Canadian businessman Sean McCoshen told a recent meeting of the Alaska State Senate Transportation Committee that the company he co-founded and runs, Alberta-Alaska Railway Development Corp., has been working with consultants, the Alaska Railroad, Canadian native groups and others to build a line to the Yukon border, then south to interconnections with the Canadian National and Canadian Pacific. McCoshen is CEO of the McCoshen Group, which he describes as a family office that owns 14 privately held companies ranging from housing, manufacturing, finance, retail, and rail. He’s also CEO of The Usand Group, a Winnipeg organization that links Canadian native groups with investors. McCoshen is proposing not only the rail line but completion of a 32-mile spur to connect Alaskan Railroad with the Port Mackenzie marine-cargo facility. He said the development corporation is willing to finance the $125 million needed to finish it..."
Interested? Can find the full article linked here @ http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2019/04/08-canadian-development-company-renews-push-for-rail-line-linking-alaska-to-the-lower-48-states
So apparentlty, the issue is not completely dead, but is still struggling along. It seems to prove that things that are 'old' can become 'new' again?
The discussions on the Forum were numerous at the time, and all seemed to come up to being dashed on the costs of the project, returns on the investments, and various environmental roadblocks(?). At that time there were some new explorations in the areas of various mineral deposits, in the YT and NWT. IIRC, there were gold(?), diamonds(?) and coal(?) . One of the strongest arguments AGAINST the ARR Extension, and a tie to the former Deese Lake Extension and it's connection to the Canadian and ultimately, the US rail nets; was by Railwayman, [paraphrased] who made the point:' that mineral traffic was best served when moved fromthe sources to the closest sea port'(?).
The article further states : "...The driving force behind revisiting the idea of the rail line appears to be finding a way to get bitumen — found in Albertan oil sands — to export markets. McCoshen also believes he can get involvement from indigenous Alaska Native Corporations, Alaska tribes, and Canadian First Nations as owners. That’s also part of the plan for a second group chasing the dream of an Alberta-to-Alaska rail connection. G7G Railway Corp. is proposing “a new, approximately 2,450 km long, purpose-built, state-of-the-art railway from the oil sands of Ft. McMurray and Peace River regions of Alberta connecting to the Pacific tidewater ports of Valdez and Anchorage, Alaska.”..."
And for those who question the poterntial conditions on the formenr BCRail NW Extension. Here is a linked site that shows photos of a trip up that line and a narrative of the trip. [ I suspect that the author, is one of our Forum contributors!?]
linked @ http://explorenorth.com/wordpress/gnat-pass-exploring-bc-rails-northern-extension/
Hopefully, this will get some positive comments, rather than the negativity of the comments on the Newswire piece.
Just got back from YT after a really fine White Pass snow train chase. #1 Rotary and the pushers, 73 and 69 were in good running form, from the outside and my friends, the pilot in training, and the long-time pilot, said the equipment was in good shape and performed really well. Skagway Shops know what they are doing and they had one of their best machinist/mechanics travelling with the rotary. There were no breakdowns or problems with the equipment. Some tough spring snow to cut through though. Once I figure out how to post pictures here, I will do so.
Re: the Ak, YT, BC rail connection, the following from northern friends. 'There's talk' they said 'but don't expect anything in yours or my lifetime.' ..... The reasons I gave previously in this thread apply, according to them.
The view from here.
samfp1943 Just a brief question. When BC Rail ran their electrification service; was the source of their power from Hydro in the area, or was it brought in from some other area?
I believe it was transmitted overland via the BC Hydro network (and an extension to Tumbler Ridge where two major mines were located IIRC) from Hudson's Hope BC (Williston Lake) and the Bennett Dam (one of our major generation plants). Power was already being supplied to the Dawson Creek/Ft St John area. Tumbler Ridge Sub is not too far away from there (more Northern Interior than anything), the area is more 'built up' /developed and the topography/distances aren't quite as challenging as in the northwestern area of BC. There is no significant local generation capacity in the Tumbler Ridge area that I am aware of.
Re: the Dease Lake Extension and further northerly railway connections.
The ROW is extended almost all of the way to Dease Lake. Parts of it are visible from the Stewart/Cassiar Highway #37. Trees grow in it. There is no rail laid. Locals use it for hunting etc.
There is little if any likelihood that it would/could be connected to the White Pass. There are far too many mountain ranges, rivers and lakes plus the muskeg conditions to make it economically possible. I can't imagine the costs involved to put in a ROW through that country. The Gov't of BC gave up on the Dease Lake Extension in the '70's and with good reason. It ate up money and there was no short or even medium term payback possible not to mention the economices of operating the line.
Electricity is still a problem. The power supplies necessary to serve such activity don't exist north of Stewart, BC. There has been talk of extension of the high line in the past 3 or so years, but nothing substantive has resulted thus far. The provincial gov't has so far been unwilling to fund it alone and the federal gov't has made some noises about a contribution but this is far from guaranteed.
The mining industry would have to generate its own power in order to mill whatever ore they extract and that still is an expensive proposition. That said, there is a mine around Bob Quinn Lake IIRC that in summer 2009 (when I last went north) was operating. It was hauling some ore to Stewart IIRC which has some ocean loading facilities It was not a large operation IIRC and was the only one I saw that had a connection to the highway. there is exploraation in the area and has been for many years, however the costs of operation vs the value of ore produced has made this a dicey proposition.
A relative of mine at Stewart, BC said there is some activity from BOB Quinn but it's very little and as far as he can see locally it's unlikely to amount to much soon. He's been in the area for the last 25 years and has seen a lot of coming and going of this kind.
Cassiar Asbestos used to run trucks loaded with bales of processed asbestos south from Cassiar, BC to Stewart in the 60's and 70's and take fuel etc on the backhaul but it was an expensive operation and the market for obvious reasons began to dry up. A friend of mine was an engineer and powerhouse operator at Cassiar for a number of years in the late 60's early '70's. It was not a cheap operation according to him. He'd worked at Port Radium, NWT before that and knew of what he spoke.
The economics of operation of any mine able support the feasible operation of a standard guage railway in this area is remote at best. Drive it where you can. You'll see. Also, as I understand it, White Pass is looking to get assistance to connect to mines proposed fairly close to their existing ROW. Any talk I've heard about standard guage is just that, talk. It would be incredibly expensive to do so and I'm not sure the political will exists locally or federally.
White Pass did do a good business for many years hauling ore from Faro YT to Skagway and still has an ore dock there. I think they would upgrade the existing line, although they've done a good job of this as far as Carcross, and perhaps reopen the Utah Transload at Whitehorse. The track north of Carcross YT (40+ miles) is listed out of service and I know it would require some considerable work to upgrade. They've also, as far as I know, gotten rid of all their intermodal equipment (ore cars and containers). There are some tank cars stored north of Bennett but not a whole lot else. That would take some serious dollars too.
I'm going to be in YT at the end of April, to see WP Rotary #1 at work, and will talk to old friends of mine about this whole thread but honestly, I don't think it will ever amount to more than talk.
Chilliwack BC
carnej1 BATMAN: I can just see the TV show now. Instead of "Ice Road Truckers". It will be "Ice Right Of Way Track Layers". Every year the track that was laid on the frozen lakes and muskeg sinks into the abyss at spring thaw. I think anyone that thinks a Railroad to Alaska will ever happen in the imaginable future needs a road trip North. We would love your tourist $$$$. The only trouble is you don't have to go very far North before the only ones to collect them would be the Kodiaks. Brent Obv. if the Alcan highway can be built over Muskeg than a rail line could be.. The real issue is $, the backers of the various proposals seem to base them on public funding (particularly on the Canadian side), and that is what really makes the idea unworkable..
BATMAN: I can just see the TV show now. Instead of "Ice Road Truckers". It will be "Ice Right Of Way Track Layers". Every year the track that was laid on the frozen lakes and muskeg sinks into the abyss at spring thaw. I think anyone that thinks a Railroad to Alaska will ever happen in the imaginable future needs a road trip North. We would love your tourist $$$$. The only trouble is you don't have to go very far North before the only ones to collect them would be the Kodiaks. Brent
I can just see the TV show now. Instead of "Ice Road Truckers". It will be "Ice Right Of Way Track Layers". Every year the track that was laid on the frozen lakes and muskeg sinks into the abyss at spring thaw. I think anyone that thinks a Railroad to Alaska will ever happen in the imaginable future needs a road trip North.
We would love your tourist $$$$. The only trouble is you don't have to go very far North before the only ones to collect them would be the Kodiaks.
Brent
Obv. if the Alcan highway can be built over Muskeg than a rail line could be..
The real issue is $, the backers of the various proposals seem to base them on public funding (particularly on the Canadian side), and that is what really makes the idea unworkable..
I was being somewhat tongue in cheek. I think the cost of maintaining such a line would make the initial cost of construction seem like small change.
As far as the Alcan Hwy is concerned, when you drive along it there are parts that are miles and miles in length that turn into roller coasters in a short period of of time. A rail line would suffer the same problems. As the cold season is so long frost heaves are also a huge problem. I cannot ever see it being economical.
Just my .
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
BATMAN I can just see the TV show now. Instead of "Ice Road Truckers". It will be "Ice Right Of Way Track Layers". Every year the track that was laid on the frozen lakes and muskeg sinks into the abyss at spring thaw. I think anyone that thinks a Railroad to Alaska will ever happen in the imaginable future needs a road trip North. We would love your tourist $$$$. The only trouble is you don't have to go very far North before the only ones to collect them would be the Kodiaks. Brent
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
On http://alaskacanadarail.com/report.html you can actually download google earth KML files that when you open those in google earth it will give you the exact and precise route as an overlay in google earth that you can follow.
http://alaskacanadarail.com/documents/Map_Page_ACRL.pdf
The above has a map with several route proposals. It appears that an interior route is more feasible but you draw your conclusions.
There are 2 routes one from Dease and the other from Fort Nelson to Watson lake. Costs of using the Dease route would be fewer miles but if no bridges and tunnels are in place then costs may be less from Fort Nelson than running from Chipmunk - Dease - Watson Lake.?
All plans have connections to the planned Alaska RR route (actually some engineering is already being done with a problem with a river bridge) to Delta Junction.
lone geep I think it would be shorter if they went through Juneau (ignoring the hugh mountains and inlets). It would benefit the Yukon to have a rail connection.The plan is slightly plausible but the problem I have with it is where is the money coming from? It would billions of dollars to blast through the mountains. Its my dream to do something like that. The Lone Geep
I think it would be shorter if they went through Juneau (ignoring the hugh mountains and inlets). It would benefit the Yukon to have a rail connection.The plan is slightly plausible but the problem I have with it is where is the money coming from? It would billions of dollars to blast through the mountains. Its my dream to do something like that.
The Lone Geep
You'd have way crazy grades going into Juneau. In fact, there is not even any paved road going into Juneau - most people get there by ferry. The only way to get there by land right now is via dirt roads that require a 4 wheel drive, so as you can image not a good place to build a RR.
Lone Geep
\
"3 Budds, 7 days, 2446 miles - Excursion covering entire British Columbia Railway" by Ingles, J. David - Trains, February 1988, pg. ? - Paul North.
As usual operations are more complicated than at first glance. CN has normal operations to Minaret from Prince George - Odell (junction of Tumbler Ridge line) - Minaret.. I have no idea how much traffic on the Odell - Minaret section? . About 4 years ago operations from Minaret - Chipmunk were only allowed by special authorization. What that requires I have no idea. From Chipmunk - Jackson track was laid but not into service. Have no idea if track is still in place but maybe that is the trees seen growing up thru the track?
From Jackson to Dease Lake ROW was cleared & graded but no track laid. Do not know if bridges and tunnels were finished or not??
All that being said lets go north.
Approximately 350 - 400 air miles from Dease Lake would be a possible connection to the WP&Y narrow guage RR. Connections either at Carcross or Whitehorse? There may be mountains in the way as I believe the AK - Canada route was planned further east.
Some of you are aware that the WP&Y has applied for funds to standard guage (actually dual guage) their line. This upgrading is for transporting possible mining of large mineral deposits within 150 - 200 miles of the WP&Y. These minings would be carried to a port that can load minerals on ships to the far east.
The Dease route might carry these minerals (there is much minerals surveying needed to established total aamounts and locations). to Central US and Canadian processng plants?
The Canadian territory and Alaska needs information as to where what deposits are present to set the possible RR route(s).??
narig01 Forgive me if I'm off topic. But I thought I read somewhere that PGE's (then BC Ry's) line to Dease Lake had trees growing thru the ballast and tracks. Rgds IGN
Forgive me if I'm off topic. But I thought I read somewhere that PGE's (then BC Ry's) line to Dease Lake had trees growing thru the ballast and tracks.
Rgds IGN
Actually the line to Dease Lake was never built - it was just graded by BC rail sometimes in the 60's or 70's and left at that. You can still see the ROW stretching south from Dease Lake on google earth - but yeah it wouldn't surprise me if there were trees growing on the ROW now. But still, if tracks ever were to be built it would still be a lot less work to use that already exiting ROW than starting from scratch.
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