Zwingle It's crazy because if terrorists wanted to destroy a train, they could blow up a bridge or park a cement truck on a crossing. If they wanted to destroy a station, they sure don't need a train for that. There would be so many more efficient ways for terrorists to do damage to a railroad or kill.
It's crazy because if terrorists wanted to destroy a train, they could blow up a bridge or park a cement truck on a crossing. If they wanted to destroy a station, they sure don't need a train for that. There would be so many more efficient ways for terrorists to do damage to a railroad or kill.
And, apparently, it's fairly easy to get away with derailing a train into a canyon.
Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296
Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/
I agree with most of what you posted and that is why I do not patronize businesses that demand to search my person or record as a condition of doing business with them unless there is a valid reason for doing so. An example would be that checking my credit worthiness is a valid condition for extending me credit.
My criticism has almost always been directed at the sheep who tolerate it, or even worse, who demand it. It is a sad commentary on Americans that more people would be upset if the TSA check points were eliminated than are upset over their existence.
Land of the free and home of the brave...Yea, right. LOL.
Unless the courts have ruled differently since I retired, there are a couple of errors in your examples. A police Officer cannot search you or your car without your consent unless he is able to show cause similar to what would be required to get a warrant. The search must be justified after the fact or any evidence found is not admissible.
If you think TSA is not doing unconstitutional searches, try this: Walk up to the TSA checkpoint, refuse to be searched, then try to just turn around and leave. When they do not permit you to leave unsearched that will invalidate your argument that the only consequence of refusal is not allowing you to fly.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
They cannot search a random citizen on the street without reasonable suspicion, or by intimidating you into consent. Every patriot's watchword is: "I do not consent to this search!"
However the 4th Amendment does not force anyone to do business with you, for things which are not a basic right.
"I do not consent to a full physical." -> "Fine, I don't consent to give you a ride in SpaceShipOne".
"I don't consent to be searched for outside food and drink." -> "Then enjoy movies elsewhere."
"I don't consent to a criminal background check." -> "We do not consent to employ you."
"I do not consent in advance to blood alcohol testing." -> "We do not consent to license you to drive a car; enjoy bicycling."
"I do not consent to giving my Social Security #." -> "Then you don't get an iPhone." (BTDT)
"I do not consent to giving my Social Security #" -> "OK, well, we will still hook up your electricity, because that IS a basic right, however, we may require some sort of other financial assurance like a deposit." (BTDT)
Now this Amtrak TSA stunt is very interesting. What happens if you do not consent for the search?
What SHOULD happen is this. "I do not consent to a search." "Well, no train ride for you, then." "HAHA, I already got my train ride, I'm done, hasta la veesta suckers!" "Drat, we have no legal basis to detain them."
The jackas^H^Hboots may say: "Well, you consented for a search when you boarded the train." To which you should properly say: "The train ride has completed. Searching me now is moot, ergo, both unnecessary and improper." And that should stick.
And if it doesn't, I can't imagine what would happen. Their training at the airport says: If the customer declines a search, you decline them an airplane ride and send them on their way; and that is Constitutional since airflight is not a basic right. However, in this case it's gonna dawn on the TSA grunt, that doesn't work on exit searches. Thus his team's plan is blatantly in contradiction with his other training, and I really don't know what he'd do.
This is the part where freedom isn't free. Would you pay the price or do you let other people do that?
I think basically the same thing as Tree does....there seems to be a lot of strange things going on..and, of course, some are a little more 'frightened' of the possibilities....
I suspect it will soon be 'paralysis by analysis' for TSA...
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
When the IRS starts showing up outside department stores to check your sales receipts against your tax return, they'll be on the same level...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Youmean the TSA is more despised than the IRS around tax time?
This whole situation[with the TSA and Govt ] is taking on a surreal quality to it.
Seems to be a classic case of "give 'em an inch, and they take a mile". We are witnessing a case of the growth of big government. The bureaucrats seem to interpret 'authority' as a "right" and soon the line gets blurred, and they push by not inconviencing large groups of individuals, but concentrate on single individuals in wide spread incidents.
I guess that I could really rant on, but I will leave it there.
Phoebe Vet TSA needs to be replaced by a police type organization that patrols transportation facilities and only confronts individuals or searches baggage when they have a reasonable suspicion of illegal activity.
TSA needs to be replaced by a police type organization that patrols transportation facilities and only confronts individuals or searches baggage when they have a reasonable suspicion of illegal activity.
Like the Gestapo. Reminds me of that railroad station scene from Von Ryan's Express.
I remember growing up in the '70's learning about the Soviet-style roadblocks, and how wonderful it was to live in a free country where police can't just stop a whole highway. How times have changed.
There's no justification for the need to grope travelers and search through their personal belongings. And the scary fact so many people advocate this should be a reminder that what happened in Nazi Germany happened legally one step at a time.
jmkruzelock Now this garbage in Ohmaha Nebraska, see below http://www.wowt.com/news/headlines/Amtrak_Passenger_Upset_By_Patrol_Questioning_117620619.html
Now this garbage in Ohmaha Nebraska, see below
http://www.wowt.com/news/headlines/Amtrak_Passenger_Upset_By_Patrol_Questioning_117620619.html
I'd like to believe there is more to this incident than the Nebraska Patrol spokesman is saying. Except for ICE doing checks on trains near the border, I'm unaware that law enforement generally pays any attention to passengers already on a train except to respond to a specific incident. Moreover, the spokesman indicates they didn't hold the train up, but unless it was early at Omaha, the train exceeded its scheduled 15 minute dwell time there.
Phoebe Vet TSA needs to be replaced by a police type organization that patrols transportation facilities and only confronts individuals or searches baggage when they have a reasonable suspicion of illegal activity. The East German style checkpoints are unAmerican and a violation of the Fourth Amendment.
The East German style checkpoints are unAmerican and a violation of the Fourth Amendment.
I agree with the traffic checkpoint argument. Reasonable suspicion should be required. But that said, DWI checkpoints don't require every person passing by take a Breathalyzer test or submit to a thorough search of their person and vehicle. The vast majority of people through at most are asked to produce their license and registration. Unless the officer observes something unusual, the inspection of the car and person are limited to what the officer can see in plain sight that could be observed by any person standing there. Impaired drivers account for many more deaths in this country than terrorists. Unlike TSA, traffic check points actually find and arrest violators. TSA has never caught a terrorist.
Phoebe Vet What's "today, though"? [snip]
I'm not at all current on Fourth Amendment law - and anyway, I'm of the opinion that as it is now, it's an "Alice-in-Wonderland" crazy-quilt of arbitrary, inconsistent, and irreconcilable ad hoc judicial opinons that is badly in need of simplification, rationalization, and clarification. But with that said, I don't see a huge difference between what the TSA did here, and what happens at a typical weekend-night DUI checkpoint by the state and local police on the highways around here, which are even more of a 'public' thoroughfare than a train station, it seems to me . . .
- Paul North.
Norm48327 Just my opinion, but I think TSA has the distinction of being the most despised agency of the federal government, and especially by those of us in the aviation industry. Even airline pilots who are authorized to carry firearms have to put up with the humiliating screenings. TSA also wants to screen corporate executives boarding company planes and is trying to get authority to screen every pilot and passenger of privately owned single engine aircraft. Yeah, like we could do as much damage with a Cessna 172 as with a Boeing 747. Some major changes in their method of operation are needed before they are actually doing any good.
Just my opinion, but I think TSA has the distinction of being the most despised agency of the federal government, and especially by those of us in the aviation industry. Even airline pilots who are authorized to carry firearms have to put up with the humiliating screenings.
TSA also wants to screen corporate executives boarding company planes and is trying to get authority to screen every pilot and passenger of privately owned single engine aircraft. Yeah, like we could do as much damage with a Cessna 172 as with a Boeing 747.
Some major changes in their method of operation are needed before they are actually doing any good.
Dan
What's "today, though"?
No one has tried to hijack an American airliner in almost ten years. How long are Americans going to hide under their beds? You stand a greater chance of being struck by lightning than you do of being harmed by a terrorist.
If TSA brings their abusive security play to AMTRAK I will stop using the trains, too.
Yep - that's today, though. Notice the date of the original article - over 38 years ago, when the worst hijacking was usually a short unscheduled trip to Cuba . . . The other evidence of authority and identity mentioned in that article was a Masonic ring . . . find a copy of that issue or the article if you can, and read it.
Paul_D_North_Jr erikem: [snipped] It is much harder to hijack a train train than an airliner and even more difficult to use it as a weapon as three of the four planes hijacked on 9/11. Turntable: How to hijack a train The least flexible form of transportation save the seesaw. by Allin, Richard from Trains December 1972 p. 66 humor I'm not sure if this is the article or not - there might have also been a similar column by the late hunorist Art Buchwald or similar - but the modus operandi was to board the locomotive dressed in a suit and tie and introduce oneself to the crew along the lines of "I'm J.C. Kenefick, President of the Union Pacific, and this is a special test . . . "
erikem: [snipped] It is much harder to hijack a train train than an airliner and even more difficult to use it as a weapon as three of the four planes hijacked on 9/11.
I would say "Show me your identification and papers signed by Manager of Operating Practices, Division Superintendent, Road Foreman and Terminal Trainmaster, or get off my engine"
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
Norm
Despise TSA, and love Amtrak. I have taken many trips on Amtrak before trusting any airline. Now my distrust involving any airline has come true, and I would rather keep my feet on the ground while having dinner on the starlight route enjoying the scenery.
Speaking operational from a government point of view, Citizens are the fourth and final branch of government solidified by the 9th article to the US Constitution. Yes, I know that some would like to substitute the word "amendment" but that is NOT what is expressed by it's founders involving "rights" of the People that goes far beyond mere civil duties to society.
As for the Teraherzts body scanner program, yes, it does damage DNA and is meant for the sole detection of materials that threaten society, BUT it should NOT be used on an innocent and a law abiding public that simply would like to travel from one place to another that is solely embodied and protected as an expression by the 1st article (amendment) to the U.S. constitution, or also known as freedom of expression in travel.
I pray that the Citizens of this country take upon themselves to behave and conduct themselves as the forth and final branch of part of our republic envisioned by our country's founders and I would challenge each and every one of you to at least read our constitution and its guarantees embodied in the articles (amendments) further informing yourselves about your powerful rights explained here... www.fija.org.
THANK YOU for your time and consideration involving this response.
kolechovski However, that blog got it at least half wrong. The TSA did not, as the blog said, funnel people who arrived by train into the station for a search. Instead, the TSA took over the station and posted notes outside saying that anyone who entered would be “subject to mandatory screening.”
A first person report says "When we got off in Savannah, there were TSA agents out on the platform that told us to go inside to get our (checked) luggage." So the story could be even odder than Don Phillips reports.
Napolitano has asked congress for more money for 12 more VIPR teams. Obama could stop the TSA patdowns and x-rays any time he wanted to. TSA is under DHS which is under the executive branch. Call your legislators (reps and senators) and ask them why they are allowing this to continue.
nicoleS You ask: One major unanswered question is: why? What purpose is being served other than to justify employment? I answer- to constructively restrict restrict travel, to restrict privacy in travel by our out of control government. Land of the free?
You ask: One major unanswered question is: why? What purpose is being served other than to justify employment?
I answer- to constructively restrict restrict travel, to restrict privacy in travel by our out of control government. Land of the free?
nicoleS,
Why would they want to restrict travel?
IMHO we asked for this restricted travel. When someone does something bad to this country, we feel the need to do SOMETHING. If we did nothing, the populace would demand the heads of the government. Do I think the TSA is effective? No. Definitely not. But what was the alternative? What's the TRUE likelihood that planes will be hijacked and slammed into another building? Slim to none. But it justifies a lot of spending (a lot of private-sector spending, mind you).
An aside... I watched "Day One" about the making of the first atomic weapon. It was after Pearl Harbor that we basically decided that we needed to do that, even though Japan was nearly on its knees. But we needed to make them pay.
In this case, we ALL pay. Those who perpetrated that heinous act have won in that not only 5k people died, but the entire public lives in a constant state of fear and in that sense they've done a great number on all of us. But I don't know an alternative. I have to take my shoes off. I have to pay more taxes and airfare. All to give me the "sense of security" which works for many Americans.
Not me.
This thread is now on the front page of Reddit.
*Edit - It's also now featured on The Drudge Report.
Oooh. This boils my bottom. My biggest complaint about the TSA is the lack of consistency. I used to travel a lot out of Chicago's Amtrak terminal in Union Station. On any weekday morning, more than 100k people pour out of our interurban Metra trains into the city. If you ever wanted to do anything nasty, there's your place. But security there is a joke. I can literally bring ANYTHING I want onto a train.
Now, am I scared? No, not really. What gets me is the inconsistency between airplanes and trains. If we have Homeland Security and the TSA costing +$1 billion yearly to protect only air travelers, that doesn't make sense. IMHO, none of it makes sense because the TSA is as ineffective as other plans. I once got stuck 20 minutes at SFO for a hard, rubber core in my shoes that took 7 people to sort out, stopped the security line for 20 minutes. For shoes. Security Theater, indeed.
Until then I will continue to keep my shoes on and take the train.
Phoebe Vet I have also been a strong and vocal critic of the USAPatriot Act, TSA, and The Department of Homeland Security since the day they were proposed. ...and I, too, used to work in the intelligence field.
I have also been a strong and vocal critic of the USAPatriot Act, TSA, and The Department of Homeland Security since the day they were proposed.
...and I, too, used to work in the intelligence field.
Dave: As a person of integrity, you are one of the exceptions.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.