How to Respond when you hear of a person hit/killed walking across a RR

[MP57313]

Just the other day, a local letter to the LA Times complained of the lack of safety warnings along the "Surf line" along the So Cal coast near San Diego. A college student (grandson of the letter writers) was hit and killed when hit by a train earlier in June.

The writers were alarmed because Amtrak attributed the death to suicide but the writers did not believe that. Meanwhile, they claimed there were no warning signs in the area (Cardiff).

I have ridden along that line several times, most recently in March, and I recall seeing "No Trespassing" signs at regular intervals along the line.

Whether or not there was a sign at the exact spot where he crossed the tracks, that does not excuse people from not paying attention when crossing railroad tracks. Just the same, the upgraded welded tracks in the area allow the trains to move faster and quieter than before.

I've heard the comments about "survival of the fittest", "thinning of the herd", "Darwin award winner", etc. But surely some of these are just accidents or carelessness, not deliberate stupidity.

How do you respond to these accidents, or do you just let 'em be?

[tree68]

Most safety types will tell you there is no such thing as an accident. Someone or something failed to perform as expected/required. An incident may be unavoidable given the circumstances, but it was still preventable.

I think our harshest criticism (and/or worst sarcasm) here in the forums goes to those who, despite every possible opportunity of avoiding it, still manage to collide with a train.

Suicide by train, like any suicide, is in a class by itself. We can't usually fathom why a person would take their own life, and in these cases the method they use to do so happens to be our favorite avocation.

The subject line parallels miles of beach, most of it reached by crossing the tracks. I'm not sure what the traffic density is on that line now, but I'd have to believe that anyone who frequents the beaches wouldn't be aware that trains use those tracks.

Those closest to a suicide victim rarely understand. Without seeing any of the reports on the incident, I can't guess why Amtrak would say it was a suicide, but there are going to be signs that the crew might see that might indicate such.

[Anonymous]

Just last year my best friend walked on Amtrak track at the *** Lynn,Pa. and was hit by a metroliner. He was in four parts when the police came. It was very hard on me to this day. We used to go to the station and watch trains. I no longer go to that station.

[TH&B]

There does not need to be warning signs anywhere, your warnings signs are your own eyes and ears, and if you are blind or deaf it is your own reponsibilty to know that and act accordingly. Anywhere there are train tracks there IS a train weather it is once a month or 20 times an hour makes no difference.

Then there is the philosaphy that when there is an accident, someone wanted there to be one.

I personaly strongly beleive that every grown person is responsible for his own actions.
So I dont have any sympathy for people who walk in front of trains to die. Exeption; I do have sympathy for railway employees that may be exposed to the danger of trains on a daily bases, like track maintaners and switchmen who often may depend on team effort for their safety, when someone gets injured or killed under these conditions then t is important to find out what went wrong and what can be done to prevent more accidents.

But for the general public or anyone else, if they want to walk on the tracks, fine, use your own eyes and ears, it's not hard to NOT get hit by a train.

[Willy2]

I usually try to let it go but I pray for all of the families involved. It's when people who try to beat a train to a crossing get injured or killed that I do some criticism. There's no reason to try to beat it so it makes me mad when they try.

Willy

[vsmith]

Being interested in trains and such has taught me that BEING ON OR NEAR TRACKS IS DANGEROUS period! The problem is that people think of trains as just a "Big BUS" that can slow and stop like a bus, well, IT CAN'T! I read stories like this and SILVERCHAMPION's story and it saddens me when it happens and I feel terrible for the families, but DAMMIT it STUPID to hang around on railroad tracks!

The circumstances around the subject story about the Surfliner happens out here on a daily basis. People using the tracks as a personal jogging path or shortcut to the beach or to just avoid the traffic on the streets. Now I have seen people doing just this from San Diego along the beach route to San Juan Capistrano and also up between Ventura, Santa Barbara and up to Goleta and every year we get a certain number of fatalities from trespassers. I wont even begin to talk about the Darwin Award winners joggin on the tracks with headphones on (at least one death per year!) What Are These People THINKING. Would they think of doing the same activites on a Highway?

[dharmon]

While I feel for the families who lost a loved one, the issue is that folks a) don't take the risk seriously, b) have zero situational awareness, and c) refuse to accept responsiblity for their own actions. Accidents are events that are unavoidable, mishaps are caused becasue someone or something failed. From a rail crew's view a rail/pedestrian/auto event is an accident...because the train can't swerve to avoid......from a victims perspective it is a mishap....and avoidable...they could have avoided it with a little situational awareness and respect for physics...ie the kinetic energy of several thousand tons moving on two steel rails.

If find it interesting, that you need to have warning signs to stay off the tracks or high tension towers or runways, any of which can be deadly. ? I would suggest that there are many more auto/ped fatalites than train/ped fatalities. But why aren't there any "do not stand in the street" signs? So does that mean that the city is liable if I stand in the middle of the road and get hit by a car, because they did not put "stay off the street" signs up? The court would throw it out..because I should have known.

I hate to sound cold about it, but when people are stupiud..they die....and that is a fact of life.

[northwesterner]

dharmon's comments are dead on regarding people who do not accept responsibility for their own actions. Case in point: last Friday, I was driving down Mannheim Road to see MILW #261 (which was awesome by the way) at La Grange, IL. For those of you not familiar with this highway, it is 4 to 6 lanes wide, 45 MPH speed limit, lots of trucks, runs generally through industrial areas, often with no sidewalks on either side. I come around a curve and there's a guy jogging IN THE ROAD, wearing HEADPHONES. How stupid can you be? He needed a sign on his back, "I'm an idiot, run me over."
I guess you just can't teach people common sense.

[Anonymous]

Generally I bring the train to the quickest possible safe stop when I hear a train hit someone. Usually, I see the person first and blow the horn and apply the maximum safe braking force.

Then I call the DS for an ambulance and the authorities and follow all other required company procedures.

LC

[BaltACD]

I have great sympathy for the friends and relatives of the deceased.

I have no sympathy for the person that was hit. Persons tha are on railroad rights of way in a position to be struck by a train, got what they sought. One does not go walking down the middle of a roadway without inviting being struck by a passing car....one does not go walking down a railroad right of way without inviting being struck by a train.

[Anonymous]

I came around a corner one day to find a family of four having a barbeque on the tracks. I mean they had the hibatchi going, lawn chairs set up, the whole nine yards. The only thing that saved their lives is that the signal system was down at the time and the train was travelling at restricted speed. After making an emergency application we came to a stop not knowing what or who we had hit or missed. When I got down off of the loco to see who was dead or still alive, the father is giving me this weird look and starts yelling at me. What in the f*** is this train doing here, you almost killed us you dumb ****. This guy was screaming like I had swerved through three lanes of traffic to try and kill him. The sad part is their picnic was set up about 10 feet from a no trespassing sign that they had to walk past to get where they were. The good part is after the incident they had four lawn chairs instead of two and three hibatchi's instead of one.

The trespassing signs are good ideas, but it doesn't matter. People are stupid around railroads. And a railroad is something that will kill you for being stupid. Sympathy to the families and friends of the people who get killed, but honestly, what did you expect.

[Anonymous]

Something else. If people want to feel bad when something like this happens, feel bad for the train crew who was just doing their job and ended up killing someone that day. Feel bad for the engineer and conductor who will relive that moment for the rest of their lives. Feel bad for the mechanical department that has to inspect the engine and wa***he mess from the undercarriage. Don't feel bad for the person who jumped in front of the train, they had the choice to trespass, the train crew did not have the choice to kill them

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rgemd

I came around a corner one day to find a family of four having a barbeque on the tracks. I mean they had the hibatchi going, lawn chairs set up, the whole nine yards.

Up to this point I thought I had 'heard it all' regarding stupidity (especially around railroads), but this is SO stupid I can hardly believe it ! I'm not saying I disbelieve rgemd, I'm just so astounded that any member of a supposedly intelligent species was capable of doing anything so incredibly stupid (and is still alive) !! And to think they actually reproduced! Yikes!

[mudchicken]

I just want to know how they always manage to get knocked out of their shoes and that the shoes, now a long ways from the corpse, can always be found side by side on the ballast section like somebody just set them down there.

Eeeerie[sigh][sigh][sigh]

[tree68]

The barbeque story just reminded me of an incident here a while back. Mom, Dad, and baby (in stroller) headed down the tracks to do some berry picking. While Mom and Dad were out in the bushes, they left baby in the stroller up next to the tracks. The train did clip the stroller, but the baby's injuries were minor...

There are no crossings within earshot of the site of the incident, track speed is 40.

No word on whether Mom & Dad had to change their own diapers when they got home...

[SALfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by northwesterner

dharmon's comments are dead on regarding people who do not accept responsibility for their own actions. Case in point: last Friday, I was driving down Mannheim Road to see MILW #261 (which was awesome by the way) at La Grange, IL. For those of you not familiar with this highway, it is 4 to 6 lanes wide, 45 MPH speed limit, lots of trucks, runs generally through industrial areas, often with no sidewalks on either side. I come around a curve and there's a guy jogging IN THE ROAD, wearing HEADPHONES. How stupid can you be? He needed a sign on his back, "I'm an idiot, run me over."
I guess you just can't teach people common sense.

Be glad you weren't in Nawthun Vuhjinya, where the brain-dead morons wear headphones to jog in the street FOUR FEET FROM A PERFECTLY GOOD SIDEWALK!!! If stupidity were money these bozos would make Bill Gates look like a beggar.

[Anonymous]

i get many reports, but i almost learned the hard way i had fell asleep while waiting for a train but when i heard a RING i got up and... triped on the rail the train was three crossings ahead. if i didn't get up I'd be dead so yes being at railroads altogeter is dangerous.[xx(][8]

[Anonymous]

say a prayer for the dead.
who is it going to hurt?

[MP57313]

Thanks for all the responses. I've heard many times that these kind of things traumatize the crew, regardless of whether it was caused by carelessness or "playing chicken" or whatever.

The stretch of track in question has 10 or 11 round trip Amtrak trains per day, plus a freight or two, plus on weekdays there are several Coaster commuter trains that run between Oceanside and San Diego.

Warning signs do matter, as they can help the railroad's case if/when these things go to court. The signs along the route are in English and Spanish, as a lot of migrant/undocumented workers/aliens are in the area. It has been explained that many of the aliens come from small towns where "nothing moves very fast" so they're not used to fast trains. This does not excuse them, just explains their cluelessness.

This incident reminded me of another event that happened over 10 years ago. This happened on the MTA Blue Line that runs between LA and Long Beach. A kind-hearted grandmother was walking to church to help out with a local food kitchen for the poor and homeless. [Start violins now.] She darted across the Blue Line tracks, which were less than a block from her home, and was hit and killed. The Blue Line runs every 10-12-15 minutes all day, and the crossing she used had gates, lights and bells. Much of the right of way is fenced so you can't jaywalk across it.

The family argued that the signals had failed at the time she crossed the tracks. Luckily (for the MTA anyway) some eyewitnesses disagreed with that story. The family continued to insist that the signals failed [even though the reporter who interviewed them heard trains go by/bells ringing several times during the interview]. This story generated lots of sympathy because of the "gold-hearted, faithful" victim. I even had a friend ask me, only half-joking: "What's with the Blue Line? You can be standing around, minding your own business, and a train will come along and knock you over". Huh? This story proves that one can be long on religious faith but short on awareness.

Finally, I disagree with the comment "there are no accidents". Suppose a person is stopped at a grade crossing, waiting for a train to pass, and another person driving along (not paying attention) suddenly brakes and rear-ends that car? How would the person already waiting at the crossing prevent that?

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP57313


Finally, I disagree with the comment "there are no accidents". Suppose a person is stopped at a grade crossing, waiting for a train to pass, and another person driving along (not paying attention) suddenly brakes and rear-ends that car? How would the person already waiting at the crossing prevent that?

The person who gets run into is an unfortunate victim, but the bozo that hit him suffered a preventable system failure - he wasn't paying attention. It may not be intentional, but it's no accident.

It's not that there is no such thing as an accident - it's just that many of the events we call accidents would be totally preventable, if everyone and everything was doing their "job." Unforseen failures do occur - a part breaks despite normal care, a person suffers a sudden medical condition - but running into somebody's back bumper isn't usually an accident. Just ask the person he was talking to on his cell phone at the time.

There's probably a reason why in some places, "auto accidents" are often referred to as "motor vehicle collisions."

[Anonymous]

Ah the stupidity of people....... I used to work for a railroad and we had taken all of the crossings out of service to secure the gates so that they wouldn't snap off in the wind during a hurricane. Because of this it was all "Stop and Protect" and a cop nearly hit me while flagging the crossing and we got in a shouting match. he tried to go but i stood my ground if i hadn't he would have been hit by the train!!

Another time i have seen patrol cars go around gates.

It's a sad thing people have no respect for the Railroad. Another case, I have seen people sitting on bridges in lawn chairs set up in the gauge fishing, the guy had to jump in the water to avoid being HIT!!!!

Another sad case of adults etting a poor example for there children. A young girl maybe 4 or 5 was with her mom aunt and grandmother. I was nearby and noticed then standing in the gauge. I askthem if they were waiting for the train, they answer with oh the trains don't run here. WRONG i told them there are 2 trains per day!!!! I also told them that trains or no trains it doesn't matter they are setting a very poor example for the child as she might end up viviting a relative someplace else where they are trains and she could get splattered!!! They were mad at me for telling them. They should be mad at themselves.

Another case trains were being run for a local festival while pulling into the station a 13-14 year old kid was jumping onto the tracks and running back in forth and his parents thought it was funny, I grabbed the kid and pulkled him back because the train was only 15 feet from him. His parents were mad at me and I called for a police officer and you know what there was one nearby thew whole time and he couldn't understand what the big deal was?

[Anonymous]

Oh yeah how come the newspapers never seem to fathom the simple fact that people are stupid? or careless? I mean signal malfunctions do occur but there was a time when there were no signals and it didn't matter. And how about NIMBY's using this as an isue to block line restorations? I hate that kind of thing. I feel to an extent it is Culling or thinning the herd. If you must walk the tracks just walk along them! it's that easy!!!!

[Mookie]

Culling or thinning the herd at whose expense?

[vsmith]

madame la M

I kinda agree with Army dude, Just like the weak or stupid getting thinned out of the Caribou herd by hungry wolves and bears. Stupid Humans who instist on doing Stupid things Will get killed in Stupid ways, theres no avoiding that. Of course I feel sorry for the family members left behind, but when I hear of someone getting hit by an Amtrack or Metrolink or Blueline train because they were trying to beat the train/have a picnic on the tracks/or my annual favorite: joggin on the track with headphones...my sympathy stops dead cold in its tracks.

In LA if someone did this kind of behavior on a freeway right of way the Highway Patrol would arrest them without hesitation and lecture them all the way to the jailhouse about how stupid they were...it should be the same expectation when it comes to nutjobs fishing from trestles or people driving around gates in front of trains.

No Symapthy, get killed, go stand in front of St Peter,

"How did you die?"

"I got hit by a train"

"Really, How?'

"I set up a picnic on the tracks and got run over..."

"Sorry, theres no room in Heaven for Idiots. you go to Hell..."

St Peter pulls lever, idiot drops thru trap door in cloud "Eeeaahhh hoo hoo!" [}:)]

[Mookie]

Vic - I agree with you. I am not too sympathetic with people who seem to have a point where their hair should be.

I am referring to our train crews who have to deal with this - unlike paramedics and police who are trained to deal with it. This is not part of the training for our railroaders.

And no, it doesn't make it any better for the police and paramedics.

I even have a little trouble feeling sorry for the families - see how ridged I can be?

Someone raised this person. Someone lives with this person. Someone taught them that the stove is hot. Or maybe they didn't.

[philnrunt]

Hi guys, this is only the second time I've ventured over here from the MR forum.
Back when I was a rookie, I had the god-awful experience of assisting at a death scene involving a 12 year old girl and an SD40-2. The brakeman saw her go in front of the engine, the engineer never saw her come out. She was in 3 big pieces and alot of little ones.
I will never forget that the train crew was absolutely devastated, both had children her age, that the cops were NOT understanding of the situation with their-"Why did'nt you just stop?" type questions, and the parents totally unable to understand why their daughter had died.
Years later, at a NS Operation Lifesaver class, I was again with the primary officer and we had a long and, at times heated, discussion about the incident, with 2 crewmwn who had been in a few grade crossing incidents.
He came away with an entirely new attitude.
One thing I try to never forget is that if there is a lowest common denominator for stupidity, someone will sink to it.
And mookie, training gets you thru the incident, you see it but you don't have time to think about it too much, until later, thats when it slams into you . I don't think anybody is trained to handle it.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP57313


Finally, I disagree with the comment "there are no accidents". Suppose a person is stopped at a grade crossing, waiting for a train to pass, and another person driving along (not paying attention) suddenly brakes and rear-ends that car? How would the person already waiting at the crossing prevent that?

The concept of mishap vs accident is that an accident is an event which could not have been avoided, while a mishap occurs because the chain of events leading up to it was not broken to prevent it. The example I gave is poor, because anytime a train hits a person or car it is a mishap. I was approaching it from a traincrew's point of view, in the sense that their actions alone may not have avoided it. Unless a train is lifted off the tracks by an eathquake and falls on someone, pretty much any other instance, other than malicious action, which is a different matter (ie a plane crach vice a plane being shot down or sabotaged) is avoidable. Your example is a mishap, and could have been avoided had the driver of the second car been paying attention and stopped short of the first car. While that is not much solice to the driver that gets hit by the train or the crew, it was an avoidable mishap because it did not have to happen. By in large, the number of accidents that occur is quite small. Generally, if you look at any event, a chain of dynamic events can be created that shows poor judgement, lack of maintenance, loss of situational awareness, operating beyond capability of person or equipment, poor or ineffective training, alcohol/drug/physical impairment, etc.....the root cause will almost always come down to human error. Only in a true accident can an unpreventable root cause be found. If a person is walking on the tracks and the train can't stop, while it was beyond the control of the crew to effectively stop in time it is still a mishap and avoidable, because a dynamic event in the chain could have been changed to affect a different less fatal outcome. The person doing the walking could have chosen more wisely (judgement), paid more attention (SA), etc.......If the crew saw him but could not stop because the brakes failed.....then we go to maintenance or equipment failure, which generally in the end will result in discovery of human error somewhere along the line.

It sounds like symantics, but it's true when you objectively break it down. That is the way it is done in aviation mishaps...to find the root cause and correct it.

Bottom line: Fatalities involving railroads and peds/auto are avoidable and therefore mishaps, not accidents.

[MP57313]

DHarmon, I generally agree with your definition. I thought the earlier comment meant that all accidents are preventable by all parties involved.

I fully agree the RR trespasser, car rear-ender, crossing gate avoider, etc. are responsible for the mishaps. It's the argument that some folks make that all parties are equally at fault that drives me nuts. [Such as: The RR crew should have known about the recent fatalities along that stretch of track, and slowed down to 5 mph, bell ringing all the way, in order to spare the lives of the irresponsible dolts in the area.]

As for the St. Peter dialogue...that was clever. My philospohy too...

[locomutt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

madame la M

I kinda agree with Army dude, Just like the weak or stupid getting thinned out of the Caribou herd by hungry wolves and bears. Stupid Humans who instist on doing Stupid things Will get killed in Stupid ways, theres no avoiding that. Of course I feel sorry for the family members left behind, but when I hear of someone getting hit by an Amtrack or Metrolink or Blueline train because they were trying to beat the train/have a picnic on the tracks/or my annual favorite: joggin on the track with headphones...my sympathy stops dead cold in its tracks.

In LA if someone did this kind of behavior on a freeway right of way the Highway Patrol would arrest them without hesitation and lecture them all the way to the jailhouse about how stupid they were...it should be the same expectation when it comes to nutjobs fishing from trestles or people driving around gates in front of trains.

No Symapthy, get killed, go stand in front of St Peter,

"How did you die?"

"I got hit by a train"

"Really, How?'

"I set up a picnic on the tracks and got run over..."

"Sorry, theres no room in Heaven for Idiots. you go to Hell..."

St Peter pulls lever, idiot drops thru trap door in cloud "Eeeaahhh hoo hoo!" [}:)]

Vic,

THAT, is a very true,but sad analogy.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

Being interested in trains and such has taught me that BEING ON OR NEAR TRACKS IS DANGEROUS period! The problem is that people think of trains as just a "Big BUS" that can slow and stop like a bus, well, IT CAN'T! I read stories like this and SILVERCHAMPION's story and it saddens me when it happens and I feel terrible for the families, but DAMMIT it STUPID to hang around on railroad tracks!

The circumstances around the subject story about the Surfliner happens out here on a daily basis. People using the tracks as a personal jogging path or shortcut to the beach or to just avoid the traffic on the streets. Now I have seen people doing just this from San Diego along the beach route to San Juan Capistrano and also up between Ventura, Santa Barbara and up to Goleta and every year we get a certain number of fatalities from trespassers. I wont even begin to talk about the Darwin Award winners joggin on the tracks with headphones on (at least one death per year!) What Are These People THINKING. Would they think of doing the same activites on a Highway?

Well, I think I must be the shallowest hearted around when it comes to this, many people can cry me a river, but If your walking along near Train tracks.. (listen to the way that sounds... TRAIN + TRACKS) not people tracks, not Walking Tracks, not rom,an catholic church tracks, but TRAIN tracks, So my guess is, trains frequently occupy these so called "tracks" and it may not be a 100 Watt i dea to walk around them

any sensible dim-witt knows this, and anyone who doesn't should have the head top of their skull sawed off, a pair of ferrets sent into the brain cavity and chase any ounce of sense this person has through the ears.

Heartfelt on this idea? i think not, intentional stupidity goes around,. and it comes around.