ValleyXOr course, I've known some who weren't so fortunate and some who were even better off than I was. It can be a crapshoot, depending on when you hired out and sometimes gains in seniority come unexpectedly, not always because of unfortunate events.
My understanding is that the fortunes of seniority are the rusult of the massive hiring done after WW2. Once all of those jobs were filled, the rate of hiring was governed generally more by retirements. Those that hired out at the end of the big block were usually the ones stuck with the less-desireable jobs. Then when all those that hired after the war retired, there was a second wave of hiring to make up for all those retirees. I came in on the hind-end of that block.
Oh, and to keep it on topic, the worst grade I ever had to deal with was a short section of 1.5% on the Fond du Lac sub, and the infamous 5 miles of 1% of West Allis hill in Milwaukee. Not that 1% was that big of a deal, at least going downhill (although there was a facing-point switch in the middle of a sharp 25mph curve at the bottom of the hill), but going uphill was usually a challenge (at least to the power), as this was the only appreciable grade on the Milwaukee sub.
A railroader tired and can hardly see??? I dont believe that your living the dream, Oh and these bump on my head are not from bending over to pick up my pen on the floor and hitting my head. but you didnt hear me say i was tired. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
I was far more fortunate than that, I really didn't spend that much time on any extra boards, was forced to jobs I really didn't want some of the time and forced out of town a few times but nothing that wore on for years. Most of the time I've spent on extra boards was by choice and not by lack of seniority.
Or course, I've known some who weren't so fortunate and some who were even better off than I was. It can be a crapshoot, depending on when you hired out and sometimes gains in seniority come unexpectedly, not always because of unfortunate events.
However, this is straying from the topic and I apologize for that.
ValleyXZardoz, did you ride the extra board for twenty years? I would think that you might have held a regular pool turn sometime during that period of time unless, like some, you preferred the extra board.
ValleyX I can understand carrying your track charts although I think you didn't look at them obsessively, you used them for occasional reference.
Zardoz, did you ride the extra board for twenty years? I would think that you might have held a regular pool turn sometime during that period of time unless, like some, you preferred the extra board. I can understand carrying your track charts although I think you didn't look at them obsessively, you used them for occasional reference. I agree with Tree and what he says, I've been qualified on about 380 miles of territory for years which, until the Conrail split, required carrying three rulebooks and four different division timetables but I confess to not carrying a track chart and haven't for years.
zardoz How do you determine "experienced"? By "rely" do you mean "cannot funtion without", or "uses them for occasional reference"? And how many runs is "many"?
How do you determine "experienced"?
By "rely" do you mean "cannot funtion without", or "uses them for occasional reference"?
And how many runs is "many"?
An "experienced" engineer, new to a territory, would certainly benefit from having track charts available - as you say, you can't remember everything, even if you're otherwise qualified on the territory. And an experienced engineer would be able to quickly interpret those charts and apply that information to his running of the train.
I'm sure you have the territories you run the most pretty well down. Maybe not the number of cars the Smith Company's siding would hold, but the profile and other features you saw on a regular basis you would know.
It goes back to the difference between a "tool" and a "crutch."
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68I think I'd be a bit leery of an 'experienced' engineer who was still relying on track charts and crib notes after many runs on a given track, barring a special situation.
As each person is different, each person will use differing methods to obtain a desired result. If a person benefits from referring to his track chart, what's the harm (except to those with fragile egos)? You benefit from writing stuff down. Great. However, there are likely some who would view writing down notes somewhat akin to reading a track chart. 'Whatever works' seems like a reasonable tactic.
I loved my track charts when I was learning, and I had them with me at all times throughout my career. Of course, our seniority district had about 600 miles of track on 3 different subdivisions, and we ran everything from unit trains of 15K tons, to 10K manifests of 150 cars with most of the loads in a block of lumber cars tacked on at the rear of the train, to manifests with 25-50 loaded ore jennies on the headend of 150+ car manifests. Each train ran differently, and each subdivision had immensely differing topology.
Maybe I'm a moron, but I could not remember all of the information needed to successfully run all those trains over all those those tracks. And I do mean sucessfully, because in my 20 years of running, (believe it or not) I never broke a knuckle or extracted a drawbar. Ever. Granted, I was lucky many times, as I did occassionally do something wrong and was rewarded by a huge run-in or run-out. But I never actually broke in two due to an error on my part. Had a few knuckle bypasses, but that was it. Of course, I wasn't the fastest runner either. I prefered slow and methodical to fast and furious. "Safety First".
timzwabash1the best way to know if your going up or down hill is look at your train in the mirror. Has anyone figured out what this means? He's figuring you can see the horizon ahead of you and compare it with the horizon behind? Or what?
wabash1the best way to know if your going up or down hill is look at your train in the mirror.
Look in the mirror or stick your head out the window and look back. When you round a slight curve of any sort, give a glance back in the mirror. Not only are you inspecting your train from the head end, you also see your train as it lies (uphill, downhill, up and downhill both). If you could see it, you'd understand exactly what he is saying.
I find that the simple act of writing down information like that helps me remember it. On a given stretch of track, methinks one would reach the point where the basic information is second nature and each trip adds more of the minutae, like the stuff Wabash points out.
I think I'd be a bit leery of an 'experienced' engineer who was still relying on track charts and crib notes after many runs on a given track, barring a special situation.
Rodney Beck ......I have been in the seat fore 5 years and still have problems every now and then.
......I have been in the seat fore 5 years and still have problems every now and then.
What wabash1 is saying is it takes time I have been in the seat fore 5 years and still have problems every now and then.
Rodney
Now you have that list made when are you going to start on the list of distances between the end of siding and the road crossing you cant block while waiting on train meet, or any of the other distances of crossing to switch where you set out or make pick ups, stop for meets and hold points waiting to get into yards so as not to block crossings , we have a few places where we must know how long we are or the cut is as not to leave it sitting on a crossing with out cutting, or state law on how far back you must leave a cut standing by a crossing. Better sharpen your pencil.
when you start switching are you going to write or have time to write if the customers dock is down hill and if all cars are loaded how fast they will pick up before they crash through the wall. if your six axel engine is allowed in the plant how about all speed limits .better bring 2 pencils. And dont forget the biggest thing is no 2 cars operate the same will roll the same or stop the same add that to 100 cars in your train. But it will get easier as you get throttle time and years.
"Thanks alot of good ideas. The first thing my trainer did was throw my track profile out the window!!! said they are useless!!!! I needed to learn by the feel. Its the short hills on a curve that is really giving me fits!! i`m starting to get the feel through the seat of my pants.thanks to all of you . John"
In my experience any engineer who said that wasn't much good as an engineer or trainer. If you wait for the "seat of the pants feeling" it's too late; you should have done something already. With a profile (as we called them on the BN) or track chart (CNW terminology) you could see where something was going to happen (start downhill for example) and plan accordingly (throttle back, set up dynamics, set air, etc).
If you wait until the train starts picking up speed (because you didn't really know where the downgrade starts) now you're behind the eight ball which forces you to set more air than your optimum brake reduction for that grade. Pretty soon that extra reduction will drag your speed down too much; now what? Kick 'em off? And grab air again after the speed starts to pick up? Don't forget to go five pounds deeper because the brake reservoirs haven't recharged fully! I've done this and it's not enjoyable to say the least; you aren't really controlling the train, it's controlling you.
Since I have a civil engineering degree, and worked in the engineering department (UP and CNW) before going into train service I had an deep appreciation for the information provided by track charts (heck, I worked on enough of the blasted things in the drafting room) and studied them closely when starting locomotive engineer training.
I did one thing which made the information easier to find (it's too hard to look on the long, folded profiles we had on the BN): I went through the profile and made a list of all the items I wanted to keep track of on a switch list card (these are a convenient size on stiff cardstock with a nice grid for entering information. The finished product looked something like this:
Milepost & Description
10.0 Anna depot (easy up to MP 12.0) (This is where our example district starts)
11.5 End 2MT (25 MPH Turnout) (Note: this is MP to stop short of signal for turnout)
12.0 Start down
12.7 Start up
13.7 Level to MP 14.5
14.4 Road crossing (3,000' clear to siding sw.)
14.5 Start down (to MP 16.0)
15.0 East siding switch Bess (Siding 12,800' clear)
16.0 Start up
17.5 West siding swich Bess
18.0 Start down
And so on to the end of the run (usually just one subdivn. but not always). I made one of these for each direction so they were easy to read (also mileposts were different at sidings and control points).
With time, I remembered the mileposts on my lists, and correlated them with landmarks along the way. I worked out of Willmar, Minn. for a while and made so many runs between Willmar and Northtown (this is a short district, about 100 miles, doubled back the same day many times) that I could remember the mileposts for the grade changes almost by heart.
Another neat feature for keeping track of speed changes is the accelerometer on the newer electronic speed recorders (it's down at the bottom of the display, reads MPH/MIN). This will detect changes in speed long before the speed recorder changes 1 MPH. It was very helpful for non-main line trackage without profile information. It is also good on grades with speed controlled by dynamics; watch the MPH/MIN changes and modulate the dynamics as required to maintain a steady speed (0.0 MPH/MIN).
Hope this is of some use.
Kurt Hayek
ValleyXI don't disagree about track charts but after awhile, they become a crutch and not a tool.
Quite true.
I thought they were great while I was learning, as I had no road train service experience in the territory in which I was in learning engine service (I was a switchman in Milwaukee, but went into engine service in Chicago). While I was first learning, I would have the charts in front of me as I took my student trips, taking notice of what the engineer was doing and where he was doing it. Frequently I would ask him why he did a particular action. In addition to the information provided on my charts, I also took notes and wrote down the little helpful tidbits the older heads were giving me, which were at least as valuable as the info provided on the charts. When I began running (as a 'fireman' aka student), if the train did something unexpected, I refered to the chart (and notes) to try to find out what I had done wrong at that particular location to warrant the slack action. I soon no longer needed them on a regular basis, but they were handy when running in very dense fog.
[quote user="Bucyrus"]
[quote user= Wabash1]
the best way to know if your going up or down hill is look at your train in the mirror. real simple.
Paul_D_North_Jr As long as no one has messed with its setting on you - - and you're not on the outside of a curve or in some other place where you can't see back very far . . .
As long as no one has messed with its setting on you - - and you're not on the outside of a curve or in some other place where you can't see back very far . . .
And, as long as you are not running through a really thick fog.
Paul_D_North_Jr I dunno - I kind of doubt if the Oringinal Poster had served as a conductor on the same territory, at least not recently when the conductor is in the locomotive cab almost the entire time. How could he not be at least generally aware of where it is that the guy over on the other side is widening out on that big diesel engine just a few feet behind to climb a grade, aas well as where the brakes are being applied with that exhaust noise to confirm the action as well ? And if the engineer ever said anything about any of it - that would be something to pay attention to, even if only to know when to get off to make a cut, throw a switch, maybe replace a broken knuckle, flag a crossing, etc. - Paul North.
I dunno - I kind of doubt if the Oringinal Poster had served as a conductor on the same territory, at least not recently when the conductor is in the locomotive cab almost the entire time. How could he not be at least generally aware of where it is that the guy over on the other side is widening out on that big diesel engine just a few feet behind to climb a grade, aas well as where the brakes are being applied with that exhaust noise to confirm the action as well ? And if the engineer ever said anything about any of it - that would be something to pay attention to, even if only to know when to get off to make a cut, throw a switch, maybe replace a broken knuckle, flag a crossing, etc.
- Paul North.
Paul what you dont relize is that most conductors dont know where they are and dont care they want the paycheck we have guys been on the railroad for 7-8 years and are lost you put them on a train at night with any tonnage and you will be in emergency more than you will ever dream possible,
Or as long as someone hasn't broken the mirror or the wing window is too loose and flops around or the vibration is so bad on those little nearly useless mirrors that Wabash and I are subjected to that you can't really see your train.
Just taking some informed guesses here, and inputting them into Krug's ''Train Forces Calculator by AAK'' at - http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/RRForcesCalc.html -
Loco HP = 16200, Car Count = 100, Train Tons = 10000, Grade % = 1.00, Curve Degrees = 0.0, and the 'default' values for the others, I get an 'equilibrium' or 'steady-state' 'balanced' speed of 20.2 MPH. For a 2.00 % grade, it's only 11 MPH, so if you were at less than the 8th notch I can believe you were down to 5 MPH.
''Your Mileage May Vary'' - try some other values if you like.
Thanks for the descriptions all. I’m not sure of the hill percentage or the weight of my train, MSTS doesn't tell you that info, but I do remember that I had 3 Dash 9’s and a SD45T-2. A total combined HP rating of 16200.
The road to to success is always under construction. _____________________________________________________________________________ When the going gets tough, the tough use duct tape.
bubbajustin I have a question while we are on the topic of hills. I was running up a hill once, and I noticed the ammeter start to rise, and the speed needle start to drop. , so I applied power out to about run 6 up from 4. My speed began to plummet! If I added any more power I would have yanked a drawbar, or broke a knuckle. In the end I crested the hill doing 5 mph, with the ammeter buried in the red . . . What causes this slowing down affect when you apply power going uphill?
I was running up a hill once, and I noticed the ammeter start to rise, and the speed needle start to drop. , so I applied power out to about run 6 up from 4. My speed began to plummet! If I added any more power I would have yanked a drawbar, or broke a knuckle. In the end I crested the hill doing 5 mph, with the ammeter buried in the red . . . What causes this slowing down affect when you apply power going uphill?
Most likely, even the applied power wasn't enough to overcome the added power needs of the train on the grade. What was the train's weight, your HP available, and your HP/ton ratio ? How fast were you going when you hit the grade ? What was the grade percentage ?
Was the entire train on the hill/ grade when your speed started to drop, or only part of it ? If only part, as more of the train came onto the hill, it would take more power just to keep going at the same speed.
Even if the entire train was on the hill/ grade, your speed may have benefitted from the momentum of your speed approaching the hill/ grade. Essentially you were partially coasting up the hill.
Eventually a new equilibrium/ balance was reached between the locomotives' power output and the power needed to drag the train up the hill /grade.
Also, keep in mind a couple things:
- A train going up a hill/ grade fast needs a huge amount of power to maintain that speed. If the locomotives can't put out that much - for whatever reason, either coupler knuckles, drawbars, or simply not enough units or total power - then the speed is going to decay as you go up the hill.
- It doesn't take much of a hill to use up all of the momentum of a train approaching it. A 1.00 % grade that's only 0.6 mile long - a rise of 30 feet - will use up all of the momentum of a train approaching it at 30 MPH, or in just over a 2 minutes; a hill that's 120 ft. high - 2.4 miles at 1.00 % - will use up the momentum from a train at 60 MPH in about 4 - 5 minutes. After that, it's all up to the instantaneous power output of the locomotives. Which is why many heavy grades on railroads are operated only within the 15 to 20 MPH range.
- See Al Krug's excellent "Railroad Facts and Figures" essays on all this at -
"What is a Tough RR Grade ?" at - http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/gradetuf.htm
"Tractive Effort vs Horsepower" at - http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/hp_te.htm
"How Much Force can a Coupler Withstand ?" at - http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/drawbar.htm
bubbajustinI was running up a hill once, and I noticed the ammeter start to rise, and the speed needle start to drop. , so I applied power out to about run 6 up from 4. My speed began to plummet! If I added any more power I would have yanked a drawbar, or broke a knuckle. In the end I crested the hill doing 5 mph, with the ammeter buried in the red, and I finally had enough weight going downhill to start pulling the rest of the train down with me
In the real world of railroading, if one continues to apply maximum power as the motors crested the hill, a pull-apart would become more likely. Compare it to a piece of string with a weight on one end; take the unweighted end and pull the string over a sharp knife--eventually the string will separate.
And to those of you who recommend disregarding track charts, I disagree. I think the charts are a great learning tool when combined with actual seat-of-the-pants experience.
we got about 5`` of rain here last night, and the water in the ditch work well !!!!! as long as there is water in the ditch!!! thanks John
I have a question while we are on the topic of hills.
I was running up a hill once, and I noticed the ammeter start to rise, and the speed needle start to drop. , so I applied power out to about run 6 up from 4. My speed began to plummet! If I added any more power I would have yanked a drawbar, or broke a knuckle. In the end I crested the hill doing 5 mph, with the ammeter buried in the red, and I finally had enough weight going downhill to start pulling the rest of the train down with me, and I gradually applied DNBKS to slow my descent. What causes this slowing down affect when you apply power going uphill?
How can I say it politely, you're going to learn the territory. When you start out and if you've already been a trainman over the same territory, it probably hit you that you didn't know as much about it as you thought you did, things look different when you're sitting yourself down in that seat. Every trip, you pick up a little bit here and a little bit there and one trip, it all comes together.
Don't ever get too comfortable. If you get too comfortable, you are prone to screw up.
Did you work on this territory in train service?
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