Status of PRR mainline across Indiana

[Anonymous]

[:(!][:(!][:(!][^] wellsay what you will, you are entitled to your opinion. I still think the US govt decided to back the wrong cause in allowing the Pennsylvania and NYC to merge, just as they picked the wrong cause to back in the middle east

[daveklepper]

A specific answer and then back (I hope) to railroading. Terrorists have used schools, hospitals, and even churches, as well as apartment buildings, as bomb and munitians factories. The oil comany controlled press doesn't tell you that. And there are Jews working for oil companies that value their pay or advertizer check more than the lives of their fellow Jews, just like the Kapos in concentration camps and the Berlin Reform Synagogue that hosted the Nazi flag the day Chancelor Hindenberg handed the keys to Hitler. Sharon may be the very best man to win a war against terrorism. 60+ would-be human bombs were apprehended in the last two months! Some were small children who had no idea what packages they were carrying or what their mission really was. Zionists came to Israel with the idea of being partners with the Arabs, and indeed it was the Briti***hat told the then King Abdullah not to permit Jews to settle in Transjordan and gave the keys to Mecca and the oil to what were desert bandits instead of to the reponsible Arab leaders like Abdullah and Feisel.

Anyway, I'm glad Jordan's rail line to Aqaba is going to be upgraded. I hope I can visit it someday and that there will be passenger service. I have always found Jordanians to be great people. Ditto some Egyptians I've met. I wonder if the B&J Bagel is still on West 72nd Street in Manhattan. Ownded and operated by an Israeli Jewish couple with a Palestinian waiter, who began my study of Arabic.

[joseph2]

The ex-PRR mainline will be operated by Rail America on August 1.I would guess back in 1953 the PRR still ran some steam thru Warsaw at least Pacifics and Mikes.Penn Central used to use a special pair of SD-7s on the Madison Hill.A shortline has taken over from Madison to North Vernon,not sure if they still use the grade to lower Madison though. Joe G.

[Modelcar]

...MP173: The "old C&O line from Cincinnati"...passes through Muncie on the way northwest to Chicago and is now being transformed into the Cardinal Greenway Trail. We have 20 miles connected here paved and a brand new renovation of our Muncie Depot as a Trail Head...and more paving being added each year. 7 miles being added to the south end now...and some exists around Richmond, In.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

In answer to the last posting, the oil companies and the wealthy Saudis have matched any attempts at the Israel lobby to be objective. Israelis have never sent human time bombs into any Arab or any other school.

But shooting old men in the back, then calling it "self defense" is ok then? Funny thing about shooting someone in the back,...yanno? When they used to try and claim such as self defense in the old west, they had saying that went "get a rope"

And Israel definitely does target residential areas and apartment buildings, I've seen entire multti family apartment buildings leveled to the ground simply because they were "suspected" hamas hideouts. Funny word the US has used to describe anyone who would target civilian facilities...we call them "terrorists"

You see pictures of wide open streets with an Israeli tank rollng over the one parked car on the street, why was that important, militarily? I'll tell you why, it is the systematic elimination of infastructure and it's people...exactly like in the Warsaw Ghetto. Seems like I've been having to endure years of guilt peddeling over the halocaust disguised as "rememberance", under the proviso that it must be remembered "such that it might never happen again" And like wow, of all people who should know better, look who's getting into the act,...the worlds "victims"

Looks like that makes the Palestinians the "victims victims" sorry Ariel Sharon, you've been out trumped in the solicitation for pitty dept

[locomutt]

Okay,what has happenedwith the the former old Pensy line,. I believe from North Vernon
toMadison? I know origanlly it had a couple of specially built SDs to handle the
hill into Madison.

[MP173]

eastside:

Dont quite know what you mean by "anyone in Northern Indiana considering rail to be a competitive advantage anymore"....do you mean freight, passenger, or commuter?

Freight is hugely competitive in the steel making region with massive amounts of inbound and outbound freight.

Commuter service is politically stable with the South Shore line and the potential for more commuter service down the line on several lines (show me the money before I count on it).

Passenger service is pretty much dead in Northern Indiana. Airports in Chicago, South Bend, Ft Wayne, and now Gary offer many options.

The expressways in NW are a nightmare, particularly now with major construction on ALL major artories. Go figure.

ed

[eastside]

Just look at a routes of the railroads in the '40s. There's the NYC, NKP, GTW, B&O, PRR, C&O, Erie, Big Four, etc. -- each a major trunk route in itself. Northern Indiana was way, way overbuilt for the era of mergers. The Interstate system killed-off local (Indiana) rail traffic. Chicago is just too close. I can't imagine anyone in northern Indiana seriously considering rail to be a competitive option anymore.

[daveklepper]

In answer to the last posting, the oil companies and the wealthy Saudis have matched any attempts at the Israel lobby to be objective. Israelis have never sent human time bombs into any Arab or any other school. Hamas and Jihad made it perfectly clear they wanted all Jews out of the Middle East and then they would start on the Christians. What the Europeans want us to do is to fight terrorism by giving everything a terrorist (Arafat) says he wants, and he has already agreed to include Hamas in his government. I have agreed with Stephanie's evaluation ever since I was 12 years old and wrote Mayor O'Dwyer of New York City that scrapping the Broadway and 42nd Streeet streetcar lines was LaGuardia's worst idea (wife reputed to be GM stockholder), and that he should reverse that decision which he didn't. Israelis have three people around our necks, the oil-auto-highway lobby, the Saudi Imam fundamentalist Wahabee Islam ispired terrorists (a religion that promises 17 Virgins in heaven to the suicide bomber, which of course the Imams themselves probably don't believe), and the antisemitic wing, a very strong but tiny minority, of the Anglican Church that still goes by the Jews-killed-C___theologoy, welcomed the Nazi Nuremberg Laws, was sure Hitler would never bomb the fellow Anglo-Saxon British, and were rewarded for their concern for German purity by the Blitz. America should have thanked Israel for whiping out Iraqi's bomb-making capability for which Israel was condenmend by the UN

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Stephanie Stout

I have ridden the line 3 times; July 1973, May 1978, and October 1980. After Conrail rebuilt it, It was an excellent double track line with welded rail ABS signals, and had all the makings for moderately high speed, high frequency passenger and freight service. The May 1978 eastbound trip on the "Broadway Limited" was during the afternoon as far east as Ft. Wayne. I got away with "vestibuling" in my car, the last sleeper which had the vestibule facing the rear. I remember lots of freight trains on a fairly straight and gentle route that was fast enough to prevent me taking very many photos. The farmland and small towns were not spectacular, but they were pretty and looked productive. After living in Germany, it seemed strange not to see frequent passenger trains on such a well-maintained and populated route. What a waste to have it downgraded to branchline status. Failure to use this and a hundred other good routes is one reason we are up to our neck in the Middle East and fighting otherwise unnecessary oil wars and getting terrorism in return. On that trip I had an excellent gourmet dinner in the dining car and a very lively time in the lounge that night. Yes, even on Amtrak! That spring, much of Amtrak's food was better the the Southern Railway and D&RGW which were still independent that year. That night I shared a joint with an Isreali soldier who told me how the '73 Yom Kippur War almost went nuclear. That was our first oil war. We delivered tanks to Isreal, only the new media failed to mention that crews went with those tanks. Been there, done that. When I got back in '74, I told the politicians we'd better invest in rail and transit or we'd get sucked into more and bigger oil wars. Neither party gives a fat rat's *** about rail and how it can enhance our mobility, environment, economy, and defense. The PRR Chicago-Pittburgh line laying fallow is a prime example of the government-caused cancer.

Stephanie,

I have by no means seen the entire line, but the sections I've seen were all jointed rail, which section has been upgraded to welded rail?

And, since you brought it up as well as have first hand experiance, what is your summary opinion on "Israel" politically?

When one lives in the "media-spun" United States as I have all my life, only one side of the Israeli conflict gets much air time. Consequently, being the good little red necked american patriot thatI am, I was pro Israel up until about the mid 1990's. Israel themselves play a clever little media game, branding anyone who opposes their policy "anti semitic" or "Jew hater" always with a quick tangent being drawn to the halocaust, trumping the emotions in a way that is very backhanded.

Avoiding the word "hate" because it has become a sociological "trump card" too, placing my self in the shoes of the Palestinians (who are a semitic people too) if some force came storming into my homeland, kicked me out of the house I was born in, told me where I could and could not live, and held elections in which I could not vote, I'd be plenty prizzled myself.

I'm not going to say the United States is backing the wrong people, but we are backing the wrong cause.

In an offhand way, with Israel's relentless insistance upon tieing the issues of their devine right to abuse and oppress their fellow man with the politics of semitism, they are starting to teach me the only valid reason I have ever seen to "hate" the jew, but it is them forcing the issue.
Well, that's the way I see it, how bout you?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

Warsaw is a pretty nice town. It has quite a bit of industry with the orthopeadic industry there. Also Grace College and the lakes.

Not a bad place to live.

ed

I notice you did not mention Dalton Foundries,....Are they "gone" now? If memory serves, Warsaw used to be the home of Maypo, the breakfast cereal, Are they gone too?

[MP173]

Actually, there were several good lines across Northern Indiana, several of which are either gone or downgraded:

1. The ex PRR mainline was a workhorse with double track.
2. The EL line was also double track (I never saw it in operation), but I believe it was.
3. The old C&O line from Cincinnati.
4. The old PRR Panhandle line from Logansport.
5. Perhaps the worst example of tearing up a line was the old EJE line from Porter to Griffith.

A case can be made that the first four lines pretty much got what they deserved. Most lines across Northern Indiana 25 years ago were underutilized.

Today's NS main (ex NYC) and the CSX (ex B&O) are pretty efficient lines. The NS line to Ft. Wayne (ex NKP) carries quite a bit of traffic. The ex GTW is also busy.

The EJE line could have tied things together and created a tollway around Chicago, bypassing most of the congestion. But, it is gone.

A great book, actually two books to read, are the Merging Lines volumes by Richard Sanders. He documents in the first volume the mergers from 1900 thru 1970 and follows up the last 30 years in volume 2.

Railroads were a mess in the 70's. Problems still exist, no doubt always will.

But, we are certainly much better off than in the 70's.

ed

[Modelcar]

...I share your thoughts on great rail routes now downgraded into 2nd class lines or worse...what a waste. Wonder if the trend will somehow ever be reversed.

[Anonymous]

I have ridden the line 3 times; July 1973, May 1978, and October 1980. After Conrail rebuilt it, It was an excellent double track line with welded rail ABS signals, and had all the makings for moderately high speed, high frequency passenger and freight service. The May 1978 eastbound trip on the "Broadway Limited" was during the afternoon as far east as Ft. Wayne. I got away with "vestibuling" in my car, the last sleeper which had the vestibule facing the rear. I remember lots of freight trains on a fairly straight and gentle route that was fast enough to prevent me taking very many photos. The farmland and small towns were not spectacular, but they were pretty and looked productive. After living in Germany, it seemed strange not to see frequent passenger trains on such a well-maintained and populated route. What a waste to have it downgraded to branchline status. Failure to use this and a hundred other good routes is one reason we are up to our neck in the Middle East and fighting otherwise unnecessary oil wars and getting terrorism in return. On that trip I had an excellent gourmet dinner in the dining car and a very lively time in the lounge that night. Yes, even on Amtrak! That spring, much of Amtrak's food was better the the Southern Railway and D&RGW which were still independent that year. That night I shared a joint with an Isreali soldier who told me how the '73 Yom Kippur War almost went nuclear. That was our first oil war. We delivered tanks to Isreal, only the new media failed to mention that crews went with those tanks. Been there, done that. When I got back in '74, I told the politicians we'd better invest in rail and transit or we'd get sucked into more and bigger oil wars. Neither party gives a fat rat's *** about rail and how it can enhance our mobility, environment, economy, and defense. The PRR Chicago-Pittburgh line laying fallow is a prime example of the government-caused cancer.

[MP173]

Warsaw is a pretty nice town. It has quite a bit of industry with the orthopeadic industry there. Also Grace College and the lakes.

Not a bad place to live.

ed

[eastside]

QUOTE: I was born in Warsaw, In.

There also was a Boys' Club summer camp which I attended for 3 years in the early '50s. We went there via a PRR train from Union Station. At night, I enjoyed listening to the Pennsy freights chugging across the horizon.

How's Warsaw? I remember it as being as pretty and lively as an ideal of small-town America and wondered how it has fared. I hope not as badly as the PRR!

[espeefoamer]

I was born in Warsaw, IN.on this line, in 1951,but left for So Cal at the tender age of 15 months.What was the PRR running along this line in late 51 through early 53?

[rrnut282]

Yes it is.

There was a thread back about a week ago if you want to do a search of the forum for more info.

[eolafan]

Is this the single track line that roughly paralells US Route 30?

[mudchicken]

http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=rra&script=410&layout=-6&item_id=575593

Leased to RailAmerica 276 miles

[MP173]

What is the status of the old PRR Chicago-Ft Wayne mainline across northern Indiana?

Does CSX still own it? Heard rumors it was up for sale.

ed