Good - no, excellent memory, and a good point. But how many accident/ disasters/ derailments are probable or forseeable, and should be reasonably anticipated in deciding on how much of a financial capital reserve is needed, and then raising it ? My recollection is that there were 2 or 3 in a short time period of a year or 3, and it seemed to me at the time that A-T was having an uncommon run of bad luck at best, and was being by abused by SCL's track maintenance performance at worst = more than would be usual or the result of random events and normal probability distributions and underwriting criteria, etc. An accurate history and financial post-mortem would be informative. And then there was the Louisville extension, which might have been equally culpable in bleeding the coffers dry . . .
- Paul North.
I remember reading JGK's article and recall his observation that Auto Train could get bank financing for the locomotives but had to pay cash for the passenger equipment, consequently tying up a lot of capital. This would imply that the whole operation was undercapitalized from Day One, not unlike an interurban that could meet expenses as long as there wasn't an accident or bridge collapse.
It was - Auto-Train Corp., founded by Eugene Kerik Garfield, who I believe worked on the original DOT study that looked into it and concluded that it was feasible - and that was even before the whole Disney World / Orlando thing came to pass. Even John Kneiling liked it. Unfortunately, it was a good idea that was born under bad stars, or something like that . . .
There were major several derailments that crippled it. As best as I can recall, one was caused by a log truck that was struck at an unguarded crossing. At least 1 other was caused by poor track conditions. My 'loose' understanding is the AT had to agree not to sue SCL as part of their carriage contract, and so had to 'self-insure' for such mishaps - such that the total of the damage to all that expensive equipment, plus compensation to any injured and killed passengers, plus reimbursement for any damage to their on-board cars, plus loss of business revenues due to equipment being out of service for months, plus increased costs from leased cars and locomotives to try to cover/ 'protect' the service while the AT equipment was being repaired/ replaced, plus maybe track repairs, etc., together with the losses from the Louisville operation was enough to bankrupt AT - literally, at which point Amtrak took over. See the following articles in Trains:
Lyon_WonderDid one of CSX's predecessors operate the Auto Train back in the 1970s or early 80s? I think it was Seaboard who operated the Auto Train for a time and they used high HP 4-axle GE U-boats or Dash 7s.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
There was a short article several years ago in "Trains" about the Auto Train's power. This was before Amtrak put the 800-series P40s in storage (and obviously before they started rehabbing them.)
At that time, the P40's were in captive service on Auto Train. When I was talking about it on another forum, I said that I thought it had something to do with brakes--my memory was that it had to do with dynamics (with the auto carriers behind the passenger cars, one wouldn't want the slack to run in by using dynamics) but I was corrected--apparently, the P40's were preferred for that train because they had standard pneumatic brake stands. The P42's apparently have electrically-controlled brake stands.
Nowadays I think they just use standard P42's, though I've been curious about whether Amtrak would assign some of the rehabbed P40's back to Auto Train. My understanding is that they updated the horsepower to 4200 but did not change out the brake stands...can anybody confirm that?
Modelcar Wasn't the original Auto Train a priviate business operation with the GE's on the front end......? Seems to me a massive accident with lots of destroyed equipment, put them out of business....
Wasn't the original Auto Train a priviate business operation with the GE's on the front end......? Seems to me a massive accident with lots of destroyed equipment, put them out of business....
That combined with the mid-west expansion into Louisville was the killer.
The locos were U36Bs built to SCL specs. Last 4 (I think this number is correct) ordered for AT never were delivered to AT--Conrail ended up with them.
There was a recent article covering the final years of the original AT in one of the RR magazines. Just can't remember which one.
Jay
Lyon_WonderDid one of CSX's predecessors operate the Auto Train back in the 1970s or early 80s?
Quentin
I took the Auto train a few times and can not say anything bad about it. The food was good, the people were great and I found it very relaxing. I would love it if it were available in other locations but I realize that will never happen. It is a great way to travel.
I regularly see the SB autotrain going through Richmond since it often goes through Acca about the same time I'm going home from work - while it generally has 2 locomotives (P42s), I've seen it have as many as 4 locomotives (3 P42's, one B32-8WH). Generally if a third locomotive is added, it will be a B32-8WH but I've seen three P42's on ocassion.
I've only seen the northbound autotrain once - on my morning commute.
trnj What is the usual power for the Auto Train? How many locomotives are normally used? My wife and I are taking it to FL this Summer. John C.
What is the usual power for the Auto Train? How many locomotives are normally used? My wife and I are taking it to FL this Summer.
John C.
John whenever you take AutoTrain you may want to schedule breakfast for an early meal. Sometimes the train arrives very early at its terminal. for instance the Sun night Mon arrival at Sanford was 2:01 early. Most times it will be about :30 to :45 early and of course sometimes late. If you are awake at Jacksonville figure 2:30 to Sanford and if awake at Richmond figure a little over an hour.
blue streak 1 6. As has been discussed on other threads to lengthen Auto Train over the total 50 car CSX limit will require either both a separate Passenger train and car carrier train. That option would require 2 additional locos for car carriers than choice 2.
Didn't Amtrak, when they initially restarted Auto Train, run the auto carriers on a separate train?
Kevin
http://chatanuga.org/RailPage.html
http://chatanuga.org/WLMR.html
BNSFwatcher Just "guessing" here, but I would suspect both locos are on-line. I believe they can both provide HEP, simeltaneously. Hays
Just "guessing" here, but I would suspect both locos are on-line. I believe they can both provide HEP, simeltaneously. Hays
Hays: I believe that is incorrect here is why. First some history.
1. The first use of HEP was with the E-60s, SDP-40Fs and F-40s. The diesels ran the prime mover at run 8 to operate the HEP generator and throttle position energized the main generator for what ever setting. The F-40s were limited by the HEP generator power to about 16 (?) cars. Those F-40 s could not be paralled because the load of the traction motors momentarily slowed the prime movers and not in syncronization with other locos. Aircraft get around this problem by using a constant speed drive unit that is connected to the engine. The paralleling circuit then controls the CSD and generators. E-60s had a motor generator.
2. P-40s I am not sure of.
3. P-42s do not have a paralleling circuit as far as I know.
4. When new locomotives are ordered they will most likely be AC traction much like the F-59s. This will allow for a full generator rectifier system that will allow for an inverter to provide 480V 3 phase 60 Hz power. That system can be easily be auto paralled as the technolgy goes back to the early 1960s on aircraft. The only problem is a control circuit that would require a separate control cable with some # of wires.
5. All that being said -- the need for a parallel power provisional circuit does not appear to be needed. The 4 sets of jumper cables between cars appears to be #4 O wires. 3 phase at 408 V. Max power load for the cables is about 960KW (?) which can easily be provided by one loco or motor. There was an article about Auto Train (may be Trains mag) that stated the maximum load that could be providedby the jumpers to train and therefore the maximum number of passenger cars that could be provided power. . Anyone?
6. As has been discussed on other threads to lengthen Auto Train over the total 50 car CSX limit will require either both a separate Passenger train and car carrier train. That option would require 2 additional locos for car carriers than choice 2.
A second choice would be a change in the contract with CSX to allow a longer train. Either choice will require a source of HEP at the end of the passenger consist to split the jumper cables load. That source could be from either a loco at the end of the passenger consist (pull and push) a HEP car (Amtrak used to have some when first Amfleets ran behind GG-1s, the steam heat E-60s, E-9s, and steam heat SDP-40Fs), or the first autocarrier could have a HEP generator installed. None of these solutions are very slick however I like the loco at the rear of passenger consist best on a longer train ( not another kind of equipment to maintain and one less train each way on heavy load days . No need to bargain for track time with CSX.). That would give 2 locos in front and one behind passenger consist.
This way there is not ever the need for extra section auto carriers trains when loads are up. Again this may just be a paper exercise until more equipment is available by (2016 ?).
Just a comment on Sanford servicing.
Some years ago....Quite a few, actually....I witnessed a maintenance crew change a diesel power / A/C unit on one end {above the truck}, as the train was being loaded at the platform. About 3 workers did the job....They opened up the access doors on the side of the double level car, above the truck on one end, and they started to disconnect the necessary connections on the power / A/C unit and it didn't take too long, as a fork lift right there on the platform reached in and lifted our the dead power unit and put another in it's place and the workers connected up the replacement unit and the job was finished. It's been quite a while ago, but trying to remember....believe they did that in roughly an hour give or take a little.
Just "guessing" here, but I would suspect both locos are on-line. I believe they can both provide HEP, simeltaneously. Back in the "old days", the Atlantic Coast Line (ACL) ran the "Champions" with two E-units. The Seaboard Air Line (SAL) ran the "Silver" trains with three, often 'elephant-style' (they did have EBs), due to the undulating track and steeper grades. The trains handed-off to Florida East Coast, at Jacksonville, rated two "E"s, but the SAL ran with three, on south, via Baldwin. Dunno, fur sure, as I was only a kid tourist, in those days.
The Empire Builder comes thru Shelby, MT with three P-42s in the winter. They are all on-line. In the summer, the 3d unit might be off-line, eastbound. No mountains, east of here, that I know of!
Hays
My appology to you readers. I meant to say that the # of locomotives would be dictated by the requirement to meet a certain speed (as determined by Amtrak and maybe CSX in their contract) with one loco inoperative and one other loco providing HEP for what ever trailing tonnage the train is pulling including a dead loco. Will edit my post!!
One item I forgot. The engine crews are Washington based and whenever any servicing or rotation of the locos is required the locos will disconnect from the train and deadhead to/from Lorton to Ivy City terminal for said servicing. Very seldom there will be a requirement for maintenance on a passenger car that Lorton cannot accomplish or the car is going to Beech Grove for a level 3 overhaul and the D/H locos will take the car to Ivy City. The superliners will clear the tunnel to Wash Union Station but I have no idea if the automobile carriers will clear. Anyone???
In Sanford I have observed Auto Train with only 2 P-42s however the train was not at its 50 car limit.
The # of locomotives would be dictated by the requirement to meet a certain speed (as determined by Amtrak and maybe CSX in their contract) with one loco inoperative and one other loco providing HEP for what ever trailing tonnage the train is pulling including a dead loco. The number of locos required will probably be set by the rulling grade and trailing tons of the route Sanford - Lorton both north bound and southbound that one non operating loco can handle. I do know that detours over the "S" line (Columbia, Raleigh) have a higher ruling grade. . Anyone have that figure? (the ruling grade may be around Richmond but that is just a WAG). The ruling grade is probably not great on the "A" line.
One advantage for the Auto Train is if CSX dispatches the train correctly (which appears to happen based on its on time performance or very early arrivals at terminals) the train will not have to accelerate many times especially out of a siding.. The crew service stop in Florence is probably the only stop required. .
correct only one unit CAN supply HEP to train.
The Engine is good for 800Kw HEP or about 20 cars.
The Autotrain lately has been reported with 18 Superliners and around 30 car carriers per train, the car carriers do not require HEP.
I've seen videos of the Auto Train with (I believe) 16 Superliners plus the autoracks. I assume only one of the engines is being used to provide HEP, but is that assumption correct? If so what is the limit on the number of cars that can be handled by a single unit's HEP?
....The engines that have been used are the regular GE Amtrak engines....At least 2 if I remember correctly. I've been right there in Sanford several times and watch them assemble the train and even took pic's of the engines....
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