Grade crossings

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks MC I hadn't seen that. Grade crossing elimination has been going on for a while. The line that I mentioned earlier is not a high traffic line, but I think UP is planning to change that fact. Another topic here has been discussing Triple Crown roadrailers coming to the Twin Cities, and this is that line that will be used. This crossing is not really on a highway either. It is a medium traffic side road, and won't be taken out of service, because it provides key access to the area.

Over on the joint BNSF / CP main, there is a major highway project involving a US highway, an interstate, and a Mississippi River bridge. The tracks parallel the US highway, running right through the middle of the project. The tracks and highway cut the city of Newport in half, leaving the residential section seperated from the business district. When the project is complete, three grade crossings will be gone, and a huge connecting bridge will provide the access. One crossing is already gone.

You can see the new bridge above the eastbound Empire Builder.

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by garr

This doesn't have anything to do with maintaining a Xing, but I've always wondered if any railroad or highway dept. has experimented with using a standard red light for vehicular traffic at railroad/highway grade Xings.
Logic behind this is that motorist will wait at a red light even if no highway traffic is approaching until the light turns greeen. Everyone knows what a seeming majority of drivers do when the Xing lights come on. I know there would be a learning curve for the drivers with the change from crossbucks to red lights,but would the behavior of drivers at highway intersections be carried over to red lights at railroad/highway grade Xings?

The main reason this is not done is because Emergency Services are permitted to go through a red light whilst responding an emergency. They are not permitted to pass wig-wags while they are flashing (under any circumstances).

In the UK, the railway is responsible for both the road surface and railway between the stop lines painted on the roadway. So we have fewer problems here.

[mudchicken]

Big Boy 4005, seen this? http://www.dot.gov/affairs/fra0804.htm

A large part of the problem continues to be the knuckleheads on the highway side of the equation, especially when it comes to approach design, maintenance and responsibility.

DSchmidtt: Very common for for contracts for maintenance of crossings and signal systems to be welched on by local government. More common anymore to see state pay 70% of crossing signals, City/County 20% and railroad 10% plus all maintenance for the life of the signal system (a BIG chunk of change)....When you sent a bill to a city, county or individual for costs related to fixing or renewing a crossing, there is usually indignation from the local political agency and frequently "we won't pay for what a previous administration agreed to.." in response....it gets nuts!

[banghead][banghead][banghead]

[Big_Boy_4005]

I just left a message for the township engineer about the "stop ahead" signs. The road I mentioned is not the county's responsibility, which may explain why this matter has gone unnoticed.

[DSchmitt]

Railroads own and maintain the cross bucks, lights and gates. There is often an agreement on sharing the costs. The striping on the road approaches, the round yellow and black "RxR" signs are the governments.

[Big_Boy_4005]

I would think that those California rules posted by Dschmitt are pretty universal, and are similar in every state.

It seems to me that the railroad's responsibility has 2 parts at grade crossings. First to maintain any device that protects the crossing. This falls into their court because the track is used to trigger the signal. Second, to maintain the rails and everything that short distance outside them. They wouldn't want the highway department messing with their track.

Keep in mind that in most cases the railroad was there first. The road and subsequent crossing are just a convenience for the public to cross railroad property. I would think that sometime shortly after automobiles became common, the public got tired of having so many people being killed crossing the tracks, that the railroads were forced to do something.

Recently the Union Pacific closed a local grade crossing while they installed a new signal. They also redid the rails, and removed the wooden planks in favor of the modern rubber and concrete system. The road however, still has a very humped approach.

This was one of the last unprotected grade crossings in the county, and a terrible one too, because the tracks are at a sharp angle to the road making it very difficult to see in one direction. With the old crossbucks and stop sign removed, it is possible to go through there at speed. My kids love it, because we almost get airborne as we crest the tracks. After the better part of a year, it is still hard to get used to the fact that there is no longer a required stop there.

By the way, the county has never come by and removed the "stop ahead" signs that were posted on both sides of the approach. Somebody recently took duct tape and placed a big X over one of them. The old signs are actually kind of dangerous, because some people still stop for the now gone stop signs. Nobody ever told the county to remove the signs, and they haven't figured it out yet. Maybe it's time to give them a call.[swg]

[DSchmitt]

From the California Public Utilities Commision General Order No. 72-B

VII Maitenance of Crossings in Track Area

It shall normally be the responsibility of each railroad corporation to
maintain the crossing area between lines (2) two feet outside of the
rails of each track. When two or more tracks are involved, the railroad
shall maintain the area between the tracks where the distance
between the center lines of tracks is fifteen (15) feet or less measured
at the center line of the road or highway normal to the tracks.

VIII Maintenance of Approaches

It shall ordinarily be the responsibility of the political subdivision
having jurisdiction over the roadway to maintain the approaches and
those portions of the crossing not included under railroad responsibility
above.

The General Order also includes general guidelines for the design of grade crossing.

[BaltACD]

One item that can transform a crossing from smooth to rough overnight is a broken rail in the crossing itself. The local gang that repairs the broken rail normally doesn't have all the equipment and supplies necessary to return the crossing to its original condition after the repair.

[mudchicken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by garr

This doesn't have anything to do with maintaining a Xing, but I've always wondered if any railroad or highway dept. has experimented with using a standard red light for vehicular traffic at railroad/highway grade Xings.
Logic behind this is that motorist will wait at a red light even if no highway traffic is approaching until the light turns greeen. Everyone knows what a seeming majority of drivers do when the Xing lights come on. I know there would be a learning curve for the drivers with the change from crossbucks to red lights,but would the behavior of drivers at highway intersections be carried over to red lights at railroad/highway grade Xings?

Public Utilities Commission in Coloardo has tried this at least 5 times in Colorado (Interlocked traffic signals), most notably US-34 just west of Greeley, Colorado......They will not be installing any more as they have a higher than normal incident count and no gates....Impatient motorists treat them like a right on red or failed signal with disastrous results.[xx(][xx(][xx(]

[88gta350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by garr

This doesn't have anything to do with maintaining a Xing, but I've always wondered if any railroad or highway dept. has experimented with using a standard red light for vehicular traffic at railroad/highway grade Xings.
Logic behind this is that motorist will wait at a red light even if no highway traffic is approaching until the light turns greeen. Everyone knows what a seeming majority of drivers do when the Xing lights come on. I know there would be a learning curve for the drivers with the change from crossbucks to red lights,but would the behavior of drivers at highway intersections be carried over to red lights at railroad/highway grade Xings?

On the subject of grade crossing red lights, there's one in Carlisle PA where a NS spur crosses college street I believe it is. It only has one train per day though.

As for bad grade crossings, we have one at work that is on a hill and several low flat bed trucks have gotten stuck on it. We got one freed up only minutes before a train ended up coming by.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrnut282

Those are just the issues at the time of construction. As MudChicken said, track is dynamic. Stand beside the track and stare at one point on the track and watch it pump as a train goes by. Over time this action will cause the track to settle. At about the same time (5 years later) the highway needs resurfaced, so on goes another 6 inches of asphalt, making it worse. Then the railroad resurfaces the track, tamping new ballast under the ties. Do you see a pattern here? You have two "opposing systems" working in the same confined space (the grade crossing).

I'm glad you mentioned that- I've never read anything in the forums about it. I have been amazed at the amount of flex in any given section of track as a train passes by. I'm almost drawn to it but fight between watching/filming/actually seeing the train pass by!

[mudchicken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

MC - MOW said the xing at 1st and J - Mookie's 2nd home - will be done by the BNSF! I rather liked that. Means it may get done properly?

If that roadmaster does not get it right, all the BNSF "big cheeses" on the third and fourth floor of the Lincoln depot will know about it. Expect a long process with a deliberately slow pace. Getting six parallel tracks to match grade is a tough job. This is not one of those "click your heels twice and poof" overnight jobs and I would suspect that a street closure is required. (something the town fathers may not understand...Half & half does NOT work....) The city may still be responsible for the approaches (everything beyond two feet out from the closest rail to the R/W line....)

Iron Feathers

[garr]

This doesn't have anything to do with maintaining a Xing, but I've always wondered if any railroad or highway dept. has experimented with using a standard red light for vehicular traffic at railroad/highway grade Xings.
Logic behind this is that motorist will wait at a red light even if no highway traffic is approaching until the light turns greeen. Everyone knows what a seeming majority of drivers do when the Xing lights come on. I know there would be a learning curve for the drivers with the change from crossbucks to red lights,but would the behavior of drivers at highway intersections be carried over to red lights at railroad/highway grade Xings?

[JoeKoh]

Csx has been fixing crossings along the line all season so far.
stay safe
Joe

[Mookie]

MC - MOW said the xing at 1st and J - Mookie's 2nd home - will be done by the BNSF! I rather liked that. Means it may get done properly?

[rrnut282]

Those are just the issues at the time of construction. As MudChicken said, track is dynamic. Stand beside the track and stare at one point on the track and watch it pump as a train goes by. Over time this action will cause the track to settle. At about the same time (5 years later) the highway needs resurfaced, so on goes another 6 inches of asphalt, making it worse. Then the railroad resurfaces the track, tamping new ballast under the ties. Do you see a pattern here? You have two "opposing systems" working in the same confined space (the grade crossing).

[mudchicken]

Tree:

Agree with your comment about the problems going both ways. That being said:

Since 1968, there has been a joint AASHTO/AREMA (Highway & Railroad Design Standards) standard for what the approach grades to road crossings ought to be. What amazes me is that the highway engineers are completely ignorant of this, and when confronted with the facts in the AASHTO "Green Book", Chapter 9, look absolutely bewildered. This, more than anything else, contributes to the deteriorated condition of many crossings......

From a railroaders point of view, what goes wrong include:
(1) Highway people paving crossings into a hole with successive lifts of asphalt. (That "rough crossing" sign needs replaced with "idiots paved approaches" sign!)
(2) Bad highway design...putting a vertical curve through a grade crossing is a no-no, but they continue to do it,
(3) On dirt & gravel roads, maintainers (motor graders working excess into the crossings instead of away from planking) which humps the approach and fills the flangeways.....
(4) Failure to hold to AREMA Std. 1.5.8/ AASHTO Ch. 9 (the approach issue)...i.e. the road should be within +/- 3 inches of the top of rail 30 feet out from the nearest rail for crests and +/- 6 inches for sags....
(5) Why do the highway idiots pour concrete up to the edge of tie and sometimes over the ties (Track is a dynamic structure, don't pin it in....asphalt only within six feet of the ties!!!)...Oklahoma is really bad about this.
(6) Track curves with superelevation do not see matching grades all in the same plane in the road approaches. (and they wonder why it rides rough!)....had a Kansas Highway engineer once demand that we take the superelevation out of a 75MPH curve so his new road would ride smoother! [V] [V] [V]
(7) Track surfacing gangs doing more than the skin-lift that they were authorized to do...

I'm sure LC, Ken, UniHead and some of the others can tell you stories about where road crossings have beaten a hole on the track as well making for very rough rides on the locomotives!

[banghead][banghead][banghead]

[FJ and G]

Larry, very interesting. Often, a bridge is too expensive and a tunnel won't work because of flooding.

On the ole FJ&G RR, the city workers used to pave right over the tracks and there were many a time when the S-2 would cut its own flangeway. Kinda neat to see it do this.

[tree68]

As I recall, who maintains the crossing can get to be a real p_____g match, "the RR says the highway people, the highway people say the RR." I'm sure a major problem is those that will take major reconstruction to improve. Replacing the crossing surface is relatively easy, once funding is available.

When the Pere Marquette (now CSX) ran through Milford, MI, in the late 1800's, they did some grade realignment, resulting in a couple of crossings that were fine in the days of horse and buggy, but didn't work for long-wheelbase vehicles. I remember a car-carrier (carrying "Wynn's Friction Proofing" vans) getting nailed at one crossing after it got hung up. What a mess! No injuries, but vans all over the place. That crossing was eventually closed.

In the case of both crossings, bringing the roadway up to rail level was not a viable option, nor was building an underpass. The second is still in service, although I'm sure those with length/clearance issues avoid it...

[FJ and G]

We can't afford to bridge and tunnel the tracks everywhere, so they will be a necessary evil for many years to come (at least model railroaders like them).

Speaking from the viewpoint of a motorist, grade crossing quality varies widely; from barely noticeable to break the automobile axels.

Some crossings are even death traps. One in Cabot, Arkansas was so bad--meaning uneven--that a small car got stuck on one and had to be pushed off. I emailed UP and within 2 weeks they fixed it--oftentimes, all it takes is a simple email!

There's a particularly bad crossing in Quantico, VA (CSX) at the Marine Base (OCS) that is so uneven that a sign warns against long trucks (like flatbeds) crossing because they can get hung up. I don't know if that particular one is fixed yet.

While grade crossings are a nuisance (except for railfans who like to stop to watch the trains), the least that can be done is to make them safer.

Dave Vergun