Green Goat/Green Kid

[Anonymous]

Just read in another mag (sorry Kalmbach - I subscribe to many, but YOURS is the best!) about Railpowers hybrid locos. One signifigance of interest was , on one test, the goat pulled a 1500 trailing-ton train for 2 hours at 62 mph with the gen-set off. They mentioned the possibility of passenger service with this performance- what do you think?
Orders have been placed for Texas and California and CN.
Railpower founder Frank Donnolly drives a Toyota Prius with a logo on the side that says 'my other hybrid is a locomotive'.
I would like to see Trains do a follow-up on this emeging technology.

[daveklepper]

Commmuter passenger service would be winner with the Green Goat, particularly Metra's Rock Island Joliet service with its very frequent starts and stops. (If my memory is correct, one line seems like a streetcar service, this with a big diesel and gallery double-deck coaches!). Long distand passenger service would not make much sense, because the diesel is pretty efficient already. I sincerely hope Chicago's METRA will try it. The Rock line is the very best place to begin. Maybe we should contact Green Goat and they could put on a demonstration? A test train that wouln't require hotel power or a regular diesel hauled along just for hotel power? (Hotel power is the electricity required for lights, heat, air-conditioning, public address, automatic doors, not applicable to switchers.)

[Puckdropper]

Perhaps add a seperate generator just for hotel power... See how well they can do in service.

Let's see how efficiently it can do it... Start and stop may wind up being the niche of the hybrid.

[M636C]

There would seem to be an opportunity to fit a larger generator that could supply the Head End Power and provide battery charging at the the same time, in a purpose built commuter unit. Alternatively, some provision could be made for mains power recharging on a regular service schedule. For peak hour only services, the daytime and nightime layovers might permit complete mains recharging, and the use of an electric motor generator set to supply HEP. There must be many commuter schedules that would allow this. In fact, there is no need to have a locomotive, just fit the batteries under the commuter cars. There were battery railcars in Germany for years, and at least one experimental set in England. There was a battery bus proposed in Australia in the 1980s, and some battery tramcars in the 1890s.

This might work for trains operating beyond electrified areas, rather than dual mode locomotives. Once back under the wire (or next to the third rail) the train could recharge the batteries while running on the "mains" supply.

Peter

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

While the Green Goat is an excellent development for yard switching and industry work, I'm not sure that it would work too well in suburban service. Stop-and-go operations, especially on lines like the Rock Island Suburban line (stations only one-half mile apart) sound like a good application but the current draw required for HEP could be a real problem (air conditioning uses a lot of electricity). Putting in a second diesel-generator set just to supply HEP negates one of the major goals of the Green Goat, that of minimizing emissions.

[daveklepper]

The current size Green Goat could probably supply enough electricity for hotel power for an off-peak three-car train. (I used to see trains on the Rock line off-peak with only one car open for business and one or two dead weight closed-off, but I understand business has picked up a lot even off-peak.) Ten, if the idea worked out, large models could be provided specifically for commuter service. While the hotel demands are continuous, there still remains a lot of braking energy to be recovered in start and stop commuter service. Probably Donnally is looking into it and will make the move at the right time when the technology is ready.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

While the Green Goat is an excellent development for yard switching and industry work, I'm not sure that it would work too well in suburban service. Stop-and-go operations, especially on lines like the Rock Island Suburban line (stations only one-half mile apart) sound like a good application but the current draw required for HEP could be a real problem (air conditioning uses a lot of electricity). Putting in a second diesel-generator set just to supply HEP negates one of the major goals of the Green Goat, that of minimizing emissions.

The thing about hotel power is that it is more or less continuous - the diesel used for that purpose could be fine-tuned for max power and min emissions (using the smallest engine necessary for the intended service). The diesel used for recharging falls into the same category - it's going to be set up to run at its most efficient.

It's possible that any excess power generated by the HEP could be routed to the batteries, helping to maintain a constant load, and reducing the amount of time the charge engine is needed. The charge engine would only run when necessary to maintain necessary charge on the batteries.

Granted, you are now introducing two engines, with their attendant maintenance, but they would both be small, compared to a prime mover.

As mentioned, another option would be to size the HEP generator set to it provide the charge necessary for the engine to complete its duties. Top off charging could be done via landline during the usual downtime between commuter rushes.

Sounds like a winning concept to me, especially in urban areas where attention to pollution is most needed.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by toyomantrains

Just read in another mag (sorry Kalmbach - I subscribe to many, but YOURS is the best!) about Railpowers hybrid locos. One signifigance of interest was , on one test, the goat pulled a 1500 trailing-ton train for 2 hours at 62 mph with the gen-set off. They mentioned the possibility of passenger service with this performance- what do you think?
Orders have been placed for Texas and California and CN.
Railpower founder Frank Donnolly drives a Toyota Prius with a logo on the side that says 'my other hybrid is a locomotive'.
I would like to see Trains do a follow-up on this emeging technology.

I've seen that guy driving around a couple of times, his car really sticks out.

The Green Goat is built right here in the lower mainland (New Westminster) about a half hour from where I live. Cool thing to see, looks like it will most likely start to become quite a common sight in yards across North America.

Great on Fuel, but it really isn't all that much quieter than a normal diesel.

[athelney]

I work just across the street from the Railpower head office in North Vancouver - have to look out for this guy's car! Not seen an actual unit yet .

[UPTRAIN]

This would be a winner (if it works) on commuter lines in polluted cities, since everybody is for the"green age". I think people would like the green goat/kid not smoking, since railroading is associated with smoke and steam and "noise". I think it would be a hit.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

The current size Green Goat could probably supply enough electricity for hotel power for an off-peak three-car train. (I used to see trains on the Rock line off-peak with only one car open for business and one or two dead weight closed-off, but I understand business has picked up a lot even off-peak.) Ten, if the idea worked out, large models could be provided specifically for commuter service. While the hotel demands are continuous, there still remains a lot of braking energy to be recovered in start and stop commuter service. Probably Donnally is looking into it and will make the move at the right time when the technology is ready.

They stated that they are working on regen braking- which when implemented should meet the demands of urban stop and go service. This leads me to more questions-- in a hybrid vehicle all power flows through the hybrid transaxle which acts as an electric motor and a generator (a parallel system). In a hybrid loco (a series system) would the traction motors require extensive modification or replacement to take advantage of kinetic energy to re-charge the batteries?