A little story for you...When I hired out with the railroad, I had a long-standing relationship with my train-master. I had known him for years, and was really in a pinch. Out of work, and in the hole monetarily, he hired me and mentored me through turning my life around. He brought me up from a brakeman on the yard job to holding the yard job as conductor, and then holding one of the road jobs as experience and seniority allowed. I trusted him and he trusted me. We had a few small bumps along the road where we expected a little extra then the other was willing to give, but for the most part, it was a healthy relationship. For the most part, everyone liked and trusted the TM. If you needed a favor, he was there to help you. Short a few dollars in your check? He'd make sure it was right. When a position came available on a larger regional railroad, I made it known that I was going to take the job if it was offered. The hiring process took around three months. At that point, our relationship was strained, and while I trusted him as a boss, we didn't get along like we had before. It started to become a game of who could screw the other over more. From holding the yard job, and the PM switch job, I got to know the other railroad's TM before I got hired there. He'd call me when he knew the job was going on duty, to see if we could get him accurate lists, arrival instructions, etc. This was "family railroading" in a region where everyone knew everyone, and we all got along. From what I knew, he was a great guy to work for. And that stood true while I worked for him.He wasn't one of the types of TM's that had zero experience. He worked his way up from doing MOW, and through train service. He had a great hand on how all aspects of the railroad worked. He got a job offer from another railroad closer to his home town and he accepted it. That's when the TM from hell came in.The "new" trainmaster had been a real-estate manager, had been a railroad employee for a long time with a railroad in New England, but was a real tool. He was a union scab. When CP was on strike, he was one of the guys that went and worked for them. When the B&M was on strike, he did the same thing for them too. He was well known in the region for being a real pleasure to work for, if you kissed his ***. His management style was to punish and discipline if you didn't answer to his every beck and call. Not willing to come in and cover a job that wasn't yours, you'd get a letter. If you marked off sick, he'd come and check in on you to make sure you were home. He'd cancel vacations with no notice. He is the type of TM that nobody wants to work for. Instead of calling an extra switcher to come work the yard, he'd go out and switch cars with the other railroad who interchanged with us in our yard to get their train ready. He generated so much lost money in union grievances, that instead of changing management, they started changing schedules when job bids came around. When that didn't work and over time went through the roof, they started cutting jobs. Eighteen people from my railroad were cut. I was #17. Now, if you're coming into the rail industry with no experience, I wish you the best of luck. But personally, I wouldn't respect you as a TM. You'd be the "new kid on the block", and you'd have to earn the respect from myself and my union brothers. Until you've proven yourself as a team-player, and not just another weed-weasle, don't expect much from anyone. We'll give you a chance, but expect resistance to change, and expect that any little mistake is going to lead to a grievance. Personally speaking, unless you can switch a train better then the majority of the railroaders that are currently employed (which might not actually be hard. Half the "new guys" can't switch worth a ****. I was expected to memorize my trains, and switch without a list to get out of my "probation" stage. Not to double switch, don't handle things that don't need moving, and do it in the fewest possible moves). If you can't do my job equally to me, you shouldn't be managing how I work. The trainmaster needs to understand the jobs of the men and women below him....And have experienced it the same way his workforce has as well.
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BNSFwatcher As far as Roadmasters go, do they have to be Civil or Mechanical Engineers? I know I couldn't lay out a 'spiral easement' even on my model railroad, let alone inspect a defect or a field weld. Up here, they even have to (re)inspect the tracks before an "Inhalation Hazard" train can pass in dark territory (our branches). Lots of nasty oh-dark-thirty "overtime" that they aren't really compensated for, methinks. Hays
As far as Roadmasters go, do they have to be Civil or Mechanical Engineers? I know I couldn't lay out a 'spiral easement' even on my model railroad, let alone inspect a defect or a field weld. Up here, they even have to (re)inspect the tracks before an "Inhalation Hazard" train can pass in dark territory (our branches). Lots of nasty oh-dark-thirty "overtime" that they aren't really compensated for, methinks.
Hays
There are plenty out there that will never understand a spiral except to know what makes one defective by FRA rule (watch 'em lose it when there's an AREA 10-chord, Klauder and that undefined "thing" that gets left behind a track liner*) ...To really understand a defective weld, go find a metalurgist or spend your time in the trenches with the rest of us grunts.
It used to be that yould be a licensed PE or LS without a degree, but those days are pretty well gone. You need that PE after your name to represent the company at the Chief Engineer level. PDN will probably chime-in here somewhere.
I've had just a few too many of those 72 hour days. In a lot of territories, there might be one roadmster and a dozen trainmasters plus a gaggle of yardmasters, etc. going 24/7 .... sleep becomes a luxury.
*there are way too many folks who have been fooled by the sales pitch that those track liners can put out engineering correct curves, including some at the Asst. Chief level at several railroads....All they can do is smooth out the rough parts.
....gotta go back out and dig holes...
henry6 I am sure the cable shunt was in a signal box or other access to the circuit. Shunting across two rails would create too much of a danger should a train not stop before reaching it. Something about this conversation or set up doesn't seem right to me. Wherever I've heard of these so called tests there is a TM or RFE plus a signal maintainer or supervisor involved for proper shunting, etc. The engine crew was only obligated to observe the correct procedure and speed for the signal displayed.
I am sure the cable shunt was in a signal box or other access to the circuit. Shunting across two rails would create too much of a danger should a train not stop before reaching it. Something about this conversation or set up doesn't seem right to me. Wherever I've heard of these so called tests there is a TM or RFE plus a signal maintainer or supervisor involved for proper shunting, etc. The engine crew was only obligated to observe the correct procedure and speed for the signal displayed.
Henry your slightly wrong here, The banner is streched from rail to rail on 2 post attached to the rail. hooks across the top of the rail ( hard to exsplain it ) then they have either jumper cables or a c-clamp and a wire to it if hit the softer metal bends and falls away, wont damage a engine ( maybe the engineer ego) these banner checks are done at least once a year for engineers no signal maintainer is around when this happens only 2 trainmaster or a road forman and a trainmaster. the dispatcher is notified of what is happening so when the crew calls in bad signals they dont notify the signal maintainer right away.
Oh I caught it....lotsa chrome and tailfins too... All I got now is tailfeathers....
BNSFwatcher I may well be wrong, but having retired from the U. S. Army, I see Roadmasters and Trainmasters as akin to our Warrant Officers: totally technically proficient and not into 'back-stabbing'. Army WOs get promoted after three years of service, to Chief Warrant Officer - 2, then every six years, up to CW5. Dat's it, unless they step on their..... The system does work. Hays
I may well be wrong, but having retired from the U. S. Army, I see Roadmasters and Trainmasters as akin to our Warrant Officers: totally technically proficient and not into 'back-stabbing'. Army WOs get promoted after three years of service, to Chief Warrant Officer - 2, then every six years, up to CW5. Dat's it, unless they step on their..... The system does work.
I agree the main part of the job is to establish trust. Do not micro manage, respect your crews, ask questions on how & why procddures are done. All this will help a great degree in having good relations with the guys at the terminal. I have worked for TM's who were smart enough to know we knew our job, they left us alone and basically ran the rr from the 18th tee at the local golf course. Then there are the clowns who think they know it all when they don't know the difference between a drawbar and knuckle pin. One very important part is to know and understand the union contract. Officers who don't know what the limits are in what can be done and what can't have cost carriers dearly in spcl claim payouts. My basic feeling these guys have a job which needs to be done and thats fine. As a rule, I usually don't get into a social type relation here. I only talk w/ them when its needed, strictly related to business, straight to the point and get it over with. Remember it is a us against them culture.
Our tourist line trainmaster is just about everything - and worked his way up the ladder. He also happens to be retired and has the time (although he is on the RR payroll, IIRC). He does everything from flag our no-whistle crossing to schedule crews (rather like herding cats sometimes) to helping clean the trains to running the locomotive. Great teacher/mentor and as even-handed as one could ask for.
The only Class One TM I've known personally seemed to be a nice enough guy, and the crews that worked for him never had a bad word to say about him in my presence. He was always friendly to me. IIRC, he came to TM from dispatching, so while he may not have been T&E, he did know something about getting trains over the road.
I generally encountered him when he was helping the local crews deal with getting trains put together where I worked - shuttling the conductor around, flagging crossings, etc.
I recall one encounter when he mentioned that he was going to have to cover for another, adjacent, trainmaster, which doubled his territory for some period of time.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Mudchicken -- if you missed the reference, Google 1948 Buick "Roadmaster" for a picture. That was a classic "4-holer". "Supers" and "Specials" were only 3-holers.
Our BNSF crews, quite often, stop to remove grizzly bear cubs from the tracks around Glacier National Park. The little bears come out on the tracks to scarf up spilled grain and often lick the rails, in sub-zero weather. A bit of warm water frees them, if momma isn't around. That's why I advocate our crews be issued .357 or .454 Magnums! It could get hairy! How 'bout the crew (out east) that rescued the puppy that was frozen to the rails? Please tell me you'd stop, too.
Seems to me that in the past ten years the conflicts between CEs and TMs had been reduced greatly. Perhaps the different union rules for Conductors and for Engineers have been standardized. Used to be that the Conductor could get off the train and run over to McDonald's, but the Engineer couldn't. Maybe that was resolved by our McD's going broke and shuttering, but I think not.
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MP173 Yesterday, I heard on the scanner and viewed the following: 1. Trainmaster set up a signal to "red" by shunting the rails with a cable. The next train thru had a "red" signal which they were allowed to pass thru at very slow speed...probably "restricting". Train was running perhaps 5 mph around a curve. 2. The train came to a stop. At that point in time a scanner conversation went like this...."EB xxx, you have permission to remove the obstacle and proceed". Obviously this was a test. I didnt see the obstacle, but heard the conversation and saw the train slow and stop with the red signal. 3. Trainmaster then removed the shunt from the rails. Ed
Yesterday, I heard on the scanner and viewed the following:
1. Trainmaster set up a signal to "red" by shunting the rails with a cable. The next train thru had a "red" signal which they were allowed to pass thru at very slow speed...probably "restricting". Train was running perhaps 5 mph around a curve.
2. The train came to a stop. At that point in time a scanner conversation went like this...."EB xxx, you have permission to remove the obstacle and proceed".
Obviously this was a test.
I didnt see the obstacle, but heard the conversation and saw the train slow and stop with the red signal.
3. Trainmaster then removed the shunt from the rails.
Ed
are you sure you heard the conversation as stated? because crews do not get off trains to remove obstacles. the only way i remove a obstacle is if im taking it off the front of my engine, while im getting off the engine to go home for at least 30 days
BNSFwatcher Nick -- would you rather be a "Roadmaster" (without the four holes on each side of your hood)? Hays
Nick -- would you rather be a "Roadmaster" (without the four holes on each side of your hood)?
The operating side has created a viscious circle it may never recover from. Creating "instant managers" is indicative of that. There are plenty of folks on the operating side that I have respect for; there are others that should never have been allowed on the payroll. Probably true of any industry.
With all the whining about efficiency tests, the reason for them seems to have been forgotten here by some and regarded as only harrassment . (and it is amusing when one of the victims of a mandated efficienct test is a safety supervisor or a trainmaster wandering around in an obvious derailment cleanup construction zone in penny-loafers, no safety glasses and no hard-hat.)
(I always wanted to know how the Superintendent and Trainmasters could close out a derailment from 20-200 miles away over the radio as "wide gage" or "soft track" without being there. When I looked at the microphone on my truck radio, all I saw was lots of little Motorola holes...)
Thank-you, Gentlemen. Your answers have helped me to understand the two contradictory responses provided by Nick and by Ken.
Yes, I suppose it is the same everywhere. There are those who are content to 'slide', who do the bare minimum, who have no great ambitions or dreams, and they can still be the salt of the Earth; hard-working and dependable, just not doing more than what the Terms of Reference, or the job description, for the work says he/she should do. There are others who slide, but who take an inordinate amount of time, trials, mentoring, supervision, chastisement, chances, and ultimately firing, despite all the good will from managers.
It applies also at the level of management. I have known incompetence in various forms, and it is never helpful or pretty. And absolutely, it does nothing for team cohesion, loyalty, or trust.
However, lying, in principle, is virtually never a way to improve a bargain. It is a form of theft. It polarizes the workplace, if it is practised in either 'camp', and that costs everyone in the end. It costs in trust, loyalty, reliability, and in a host of other ways that hamstring a corporation, costing it much in monetary and human factors. It makes a company less willing, or able, to agree to changes, particularly if one of the changes is in the form of bonuses, compensated time away from work, or outright salary. Changes of any kind cost time and money because someone has to do an analysis and then implement it if the go-ahead is given. A company weakened by mistrust and subtrefuge is going to be generally resistant to change...oddly, I know...but that's the sociology for you.
I understand that sometimes you cut a person a break, but if that becomes the default, and not the justifiable exception, it becomes a sort of malaise that can be cancerous to an organization meant to have a decent ROI and bottom line.
-Crandell
Crandell,
A lot of how a Trainmaster acts depends on which railroad he works for, might even depend on which division.
For the most part, a Trainmasters ultimate duty is to protect the company, be it in the area of risk management or liability.
So, if an incident or an accident happens, it is his job to lessen any liability the company or carrier might face.
If this means stretching the truth, or leaving out certain facts, so be it, that is his job.
I know several trainmasters, two of which I help train to switch, who are great guys, lots of fun, .and if I was ever in a position where my career depended on them, I would trust them to say or do whatever it took to make sure the company suffered no loss, even if that meant lying, fabricating evidence or ignoring any factor that might indicate the carrier may have any fault or blame in the incident.
It takes a "special" type of individual to stand there drinking coffee and swapping bad jokes with you, only to an hour or so later, swear up and down to the superintendent the switch that just split under your train failed because you failed to line and latch it, or maybe you lined it under the movement, even though he knows you reported it as hard to line or maybe gapped for several days in a row...
A few years ago, my crew got caught out on a train that was stuck behind a derailment on shared main line, our trainmaster brought us pizza because we were in a position where we couldn't go forward and there was no place to back up to, so we were basically babysitting the train waiting for the other railroad to clear the track, then we were going to run out to Pasadena and yard this train.
We were a yard crew, and had not brought a lunch simply because we normally run down to a local hamburger joint and pick up lunch.
We had already been on the train past our first minutes, (lunch period) and it looked like we would be there the full 12 hours, so he sprung for 3 large pizzas, and brought them to us...real nice thing to do.
We hogged out, he came out in the company truck to cab us back in and bring out a new babysitting crew...and when we arrived at our terminal, he pulled my helper out of service....because on the 10 foot walk from the locomotive to his truck the kid had his safety glasses perched on the top of his hat instead of on his face.
I asked him later why he didn't simply remind the kid to drop his glasses down when he saw him with them on the hat, and he shrugged, said he didn't care if the kid got fired or not, it was simply a chance to take a safety test failure on a crew and he was short a couple of them for the month...besides the kid would win in a investigation anyway, so from his point of view no harm no foul..
On the other side of the coin, we had a trainmaster who came to us from another railroad, the Santa Fe...he was one of the few who was a straight shooter, who would warn you first and fire you only as the last resort..
He did stand there and tell the super that yes it was track failure, not crew error if that is what the facts showed, and stick to it even when the road master applied pressure.
He finally quit in disgust from the pressure to have X number of safety test failures a week, and my carriers attempt to try and get crews to by pass the local agreement to hang and remove rear end devices in the yard which at the time was a part of the car departments craft duties.
But our super though that wasted to much time and he wanted us, the yard crews to hang and arm devices on any train..
So this trainmaster finally had enough of the politics of being forced to screw over people he liked and respected at the orders of the people he reported to..
Rare, but he had a personal code that conflicted with his job, and his code won out in the end..
On some railroads, the trainmaster is support personnel and trouble shooter/ problem solver for the T&E guys, on others, the term weed weasel is more the amply earned.
You have been in the military, and have met both types of these guys...the low rank commissioned officer who is happy to remain right where he is, and the officer who is quite happy to climb the ladder on the backs of whoever he can step on.
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selector RRKen In a Trainmasters position, the person who does well, establishes trust... Guys, this isn't my industry...I'm just interested 'cuz I like trains. I also like people...they were my business all my professional life. So, I am puzzled by the incongruity, or incompatibility, between what Nick asserted earlier and by the statement above. Liars don't abet a culture of trust...they tear it down. Help me out here.... -Crandell
RRKen In a Trainmasters position, the person who does well, establishes trust...
Guys, this isn't my industry...I'm just interested 'cuz I like trains. I also like people...they were my business all my professional life. So, I am puzzled by the incongruity, or incompatibility, between what Nick asserted earlier and by the statement above. Liars don't abet a culture of trust...they tear it down.
Help me out here....
You're right, Crandell. The railroad Trainmaster has a tremendous load on his shoulders with every railroad employee in sight under his jurstiction or affected by it. The mistrust comes in two main ways. First, if he is brought "up from the ranks" it is felt he has turned in his union card for a brass coller; therefore no longer "one of us" but a turncoat to the otherside, not to be trusted, "against us now". Second, there have been instances whereby new MBA's et al, have been hired right off the podium with no experience making a hitch, doing 12 hours or more on the road, or any of the mundane jobs railroad people face daily; how can he possilby understand a broken knuckle, doubling the hill, setting out a car in front of another train, why a switch was split or that its down hill one way but up hill the other and that makes a difference. It hinges on the age old delima of whether to promote from within or to bring someone from some other world; all businesses face that and I wonder if railroading is really that different. If it is that different it is maybe because, at least in the old days (oh,how I hate to say that!) a railroad setting was a tight knit community dependent upon (and trusting) each other to do the right job and do the job right. If it weren't done right, then you'd cover for your brother or your neighbor knowing he'd do the same for you. The TM was the enemy to hide from and hide things from, after all he represents(represented) the company, those outside your world. It was a fear of authority rather than a respect for it. Don't get me wrong...there are plenty, probably the super majority...of those in authority on the railroad who were good supervisors, were fair and even handed, trusted and respected those under him and received the same trust and respect in return. There were always trouble makers and those in trouble. The good TM, the good Supervisor, knows the difference between the two and how to handle both. If a TM wasn't liked he often didn't last long in his position or at a given locaiton; often he left the railroad before the brothers.
I've known many TM's in about 60 years around railraods but never have been a railroader but I have always been treated with respect by them and have learned a lot about trains, railroading, and people from them.
On a light note concerning a TM and his work. This one TM I knew knew he had a problem with a particular crewman who was known to violate Rule G...no alcholic beverages while working. One late December afternoon the TM noticed this guy and his crew were marked up so he watched from his office as the crewman left RR property immediatley prior to the train's pulling out. So he set himself up in the shadows where the crewman would be returning to board the caboose as it came by. Sure enough, down the path trod the crewman with two cold sixpacks, one in each hand, to throw on the front end of the caboose then hoist himself up on the rear steps. At this point the TM stepped out of the shadows and greeted the crewman. Without missing a beat the crewman foisted the two sixpacks into the hands of the TM, told him he had been looking for him to wish him a Merry Christmas, latchied onto the grab irons and left the TM standing there with the two sixpacks stuttering to himself!
Simple if you are my trainmaster and you get me out of trouble for what ever reason and smooth things over at the upper leavel then I and several others would start to trust you, then as you do guys favors they start doing you favors, and you disapline the guys who need it fairly then you start building trust with the guys. BUT if you come in and start to change the world and rule with the book cut no slack then you wont get anything from anyone below or above., your crews will make you and brake you, and you haft to BS the upper management as well as your crews. and in most cases upper managment will leave you alone if your crews are making you look good,
A old saying I have told many a trainmaster when they start trying the scare tactics and making life hard for us, Do as you want we have seen trainmasters come and go and i will be here long after your gone, ive seen 10 bosses in the last 5 years.
samfp1943 Holy COW! Based on what Nick, and Beaulieu describe as the JOB requirements, the most likely candidate would have to have a sado-machocistic personality with the socially interactive habits of a person somewhere between a monk and a mad-dog.
Holy COW!
Based on what Nick, and Beaulieu describe as the JOB requirements, the most likely candidate would have to have a sado-machocistic personality with the socially interactive habits of a person somewhere between a monk and a mad-dog.
Only one I knew was like that...and maybe one other could have been. Train crews swore several of the others were. But about 99.9% of those I knew or had contact with were great guys.
That would be correct. In addition, you must deal with MoW, Signal, B&B, and Mechanical, and be able to get things done.
I must also agree, hiring off the street, gives you absolutely no insight what so ever of those you must lead. No amount of classroom training in the world can prepare you for what you face on a daily basis. If you don't have realistic expectations of what can and cannot be done in what time frame, you are in trouble from the get go. This means, you must be able to smell BS from 10 miles out, and call that person on it, sometimes with tact.
In a Trainmasters position, the person who does well, establishes trust, expectations, and tasks employees regularly. He can get things done, and gets the co-operations of his employees and co-managers to accomplish it. If that aint happening, then he is not effective, and operations will show it.
Here are two previous threads dealing with this topic:
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/80110/955687.aspx#955687
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/93243.aspx?PageIndex=1
I participated in both, and the coverage is slightly more even handed.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
wslc8First, what is the primary responsibility for the Trainmaster? Does it vary depending on the Railroad?
First, what is the primary responsibility for the Trainmaster? Does it vary depending on the Railroad?
The 1st or 2nd level field supervisor (depending on how you define the Yardmaster). You are usually the lowest level company "officer" The Trainmaster is responsible for EVERYTHING that happens on his territory during his tour of duty:
What skills are needed for a Trainmaster?
What situations can a Trainmaster find themselves in? What are the day-to-day operations of a Trainmaster?
What don't you find yourself in:
Are there any current or former Trainmasters on this list that offer some insight? If there is anything more one could add to this type of position or just tips on interviewing for the railroad I would really appreciate it. Thanks for the help.
Run! Fast! and Far away! Trainmaster was the worst job I had.
Direct hiring as a Trainmaster is probably the worst thing you can do...
You can probably guess, I'm not enamored with being a Trainmaster. However, service as a Trainmaster is almost always a prerequisite for any higher level position. If you ever want to hold a position above the Terminal level, you have to do your time as a Trainmaster first.
To clarify what Henry is talking about, a Trainmaster is a first level supervisory position over train operations and operating personnel. Likely there would be a training period with heavy emphasis on Railroad Operating Rules, and Federal Regulations, assuming you passed the examinations you would be assigned as an Assistant Trainmaster under an experienced Trainmaster for a period of time. I would think that you would be given six to nine months to learn the job, after which you would be appointed as a Trainmaster over your own area, or shown the door. If you're lucky the guy or gal you are assigned to will mentor you. It is easier if you have experience as an operating employee, but some railroads prefer to hire off the street as they prefer to instill their own ideas. BNSF's Trainmasters are also qualified Road Foremen, but that requires an Engineer's license which someone off the street won't have.
Don't sweat the knowledge of rules and regulations, they will teach you that. What they will be looking for is experience in dealing with people in a structured management way, not as buddy buddy. You can expect to work 60 or more hours per week, and be on call if there is a problem, day, night, and holidays. Railroading is like the military, if you are willing to learn and have a college education, you can climb the ranks. Many of the top railroad managers started out as Trainmasters, including Matt Rose, E. Hunter Harrison, Bob Krebs, and others.
While the job may vary from railroad to railroad it is primarily a field supervisory position over a certain segment of railroad line or terminal. The TM is in charge of everything and everyone in his designated area. He acts under the juristiction of the Superintentent and administers to the actual operations. He better know his railroading and the local particulars; he also better be good with people. The more he's come through the ranks, especially the local ranks, it is assumed the easier he will be able to command with authority and respect. He makes sure all schedules and assignments are kept, all railroad property is kept in order, safe, and in operating condition. He will sit judge in matters of rule breaking, accident, or anyother circumstance deemed within his juristiction by holding inquiries and hearings and meteing out proper punishment should it be deemed necessary. He will qualify (or disqualify) all those who work within his juristiction. He is the manager, the superintendent's proxy, He has to deal with unions, union rules, railroad rules, any and all other rules, He will mediate or commondeer a situation as he sees fit or as needed. He might hire and fire. He should understand railroading from the Board Room down and from the cinders up (one side or the other is the otherside at any given moment). There is no hard fast rules and definitions of "situations" he might face as anything can happen: You can expect a train movement on any track at any time in any direction.
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